PLD cross class

Maybe I'm missing a critical cross class ability here, but anyone else thinking that we should address what cross class skills I can take from conjurer? Protect and Stoneskin are great, but Cure is pitiful and Raise is absolutely useless since I can't cast it in battle.

I'd love to see these adjusted so that either a PLD can raise in battle, or, more ideally, I can cross class Esuna instead. I think being able to cleanse at lease myself in battle would make PLD a lot more useful in fights that have a lot of status effect issues than being able to take things like Cure.

Stoneskin is really the only thing you really need from conjurer. Foresight, Blood Bath and Mercy Stroke should all be on your bar (all from marauder).

After that, it's.... MEH. Protect is only useful if people are dying a lot in content as your healer handles this at the beginning. Un-traited Fracture is a DPS loss (and kills more TP on a class that floors TP in 3 minutes), but it can be useful in highly situational scenario's.

Clemency is much better than cure, non battle raise is pretty pointless, and skull sunder is simply sorry as you can't combo it.

Exactly my point, there are 5 slots and once you get those other three, I also have those same three effects from marauder, there really isn't any other skill to cross class that feels "worth it". I guess I'm just looking at an overall picture that while other paladins might not want to use esuna, it does seem like a useful skill to be able to have.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

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This has been a common gripe among a lot of the jobs for a very long time, more so for Pld's than most. They have one of the worst cross-class kits in the game. It's one of the reasons why people have made numerous requests for Esuna, Invigorate, or Blood for Blood (especially considering Gld can use them but Pld can't, for some reason), to be cross class skills. That, or change Cure to scale with Str instead of Mind on Pld. Since the beginning, Pld has had an empty and "wasted" slot, but they're not the only ones.

SE received more complaints about cross class skills than Santa Clause receives wish lists at Christmas. Their response was to ignore them. They then decided to make all future jobs start at lvl 30 and have no starter classes.

Overpower.

I find it odd that NPC GLD / PLD will use it but player PLDs / GLD cannot. It would have made a lot of the story quests a lot freakin easier than they were considering the waves of enemies to fight.

I wonder if PLD cross class skills would be better if they dumped MRD and picked up Rogue instead?

Shadeshift would be like an instant 20% stoneskin on a 2 minute cooldown, Goad adds utility and Death Blossom bring much needed AOE (though it doesn't have increased enmity.)

I vote for a goad/invigorate CC ability.

MEH

Every job in the game has a questionable #5 cross class skill. Hell, most every job's #4 cross class skill is questionable. This isn't something new here, for anyone. (honestly, go look at BLM.... I mean really) - with exception to WAR, but let's face it, WAR is basically the golden child of FFXIV.

Conversely PLD has 3 skills that most other tanks have to cross class - Provoke, Convalesence and Awareness.

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Originally Posted by Februs

It's one of the reasons why people have made numerous requests for Esuna, Invigorate, or Blood for Blood (especially considering Gld can use them but Pld can't, for some reason), to be cross class skills. That, or change Cure to scale with Str instead of Mind on Pld. Since the beginning, Pld has had an empty and "wasted" slot, but they're not the only ones.

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I can agree that invigorate at least would be helpful, but the difference there would also mean that you'd have to change to be able to cross class from lancer rather than marauder. That's not nessicarily a bad thing but it would make more of a player upheaval than simply adding in other options. Paladin can already cross class from conjurer so it'd just be a difference of adding one additional option, and so could deb implemented much more easily and without a backlash from players who might not want to lose foresight or mercy stroke.

I use Foresight, Bloodbath, Mercy Stroke, Protect and Stoneskin.
As for the TP "issue", I don't find it a real problem, whenever I'm low on TP (<300), and don't have a BRD/MCH/NIN in party, I cast stoneskin on me, or the party members, use flash, use clemency, or just wait 10 secs to get some TP; it is not like the world ends if the pally doesn't attack for 10 secs.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

I can agree that invigorate at least would be helpful, but the difference there would also mean that you'd have to change to be able to cross class from lancer rather than marauder. That's not nessicarily a bad thing but it would make more of a player upheaval than simply adding in other options. Paladin can already cross class from conjurer so it'd just be a difference of adding one additional option, and so could deb implemented much more easily and without a backlash from players who might not want to lose foresight or mercy stroke.

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I'm fine with it the way it is, honestly, but ... if we're talking theoretically, then the question would be: Is the Dps increase is worth the mitigation decrease?

Firstly, Gladiator already takes cross class skills form Lancer. In fact, before Dark Knight was announced as a Tank, a lot of use were theorizing that Drk would be a Dps job which branched from Gladiator using Lancer cross class skills instead of Conjurer. That obviously did not happen, and Drk was made into another tank.

As things are, Plds would see a pretty hefty Dps increase from lancer skills. Fracture is already a Dps loss, so it's not used. Mercy Stroke is a Dps gain, but the gain is pitiful. Blood for Blood more than makes up for both. Combined with FoF and Sword Oath, that's a pretty big increase in dmg output. Invigorate would also make Pld dps increase over time, because their Tp would actually be sustainable for a change.

The two BIG losses would be Bloodbath and Foresight. Foresight is a weak CD, but it works wonderfully with the Pld kit. It would be a big blow to lose it, especially considering how long the rest of Pld's native CD's are. Un-traited Bloodbath is also not all that great, but it also works really well with Fight or Flight + Sword Oath. Worse yet, if a Pld could use B4B + FoF + Sword Oath all together it would REALLY suck to not be able to take advantage of that extra dmg for self-healing by using Bloodbath.

Personally, I don't think the Dps increase is worth the mitigation we'd be sacrificing ... of course, that's IF SE took away the MRD skills. If we could use both MRD and LNC then it's a whole other story. If we had both, the Pld cross class kit would be: Stone skin, Foresight, Mercy Stroke, Blood For Blood, and Invigorate. I can only imagine what the backlash would look like for SE though. It would be extremely entertaining and ironic to see the wave of Forum posts complaining about how overpowered Pld would be, especially with it's long history of being so broken.

However if PLD cross classed from lancer and MRD, then that would also require a change to how to unlock paladin. Unless you changed what it's secondary job is from conjurer to MRD or LNC and required one of those to be at lv15 instead when you go to unlock the job, it would be the only job that requires a secondary job at level 15 that you then can not cross class from, and would also create the question of what happens to players who maybe leveled up only GLD and CNJ and unlocked PLD if they make that change?

Also just my take on it, I feel like a paladin using blood for blood is somewhat opposed to the concept of this job. If you're meant to be a damage sponge as PLD, in my eyes, is built, then why would you want to intentionally give yourself a vulnerability increase? It would seem to fit the mantra I've heard healers tell DRKs "drop grit, eat shit" that will make them hate you for intentionally making yourself harder to keep alive at the gain of a minimal DPS increase.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Also just my take on it, I feel like a paladin using blood for blood is somewhat opposed to the concept of this job. If you're meant to be a damage sponge as PLD, in my eyes, is built, then why would you want to intentionally give yourself a vulnerability increase? It would seem to fit the mantra I've heard healers tell DRKs "drop grit, eat shit" that will make them hate you for intentionally making yourself harder to keep alive at the gain of a minimal DPS increase.

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True, but it depends on the circumstances.

A vulnerability increase does not mean much when you're off tanking. It would just be a flat increase to dps ... assuming you don't go out of your way to stand in AoE's. Further, when main tanking, the amount of mitigation caused by swapping oaths with Bloodbath + FoF is actually quite substantial. It's basically like having an extra Regen for 15 seconds. B4B would only amplify this effect. The vulnerability of B4B would be outdone by the Pld's active healing (especially with increased auto-attack dmg from Sword Oath). Pop on a Rampart and you probably wouldn't notice the dmg increase at all. The only exceptions would be on major dmg spikes like TB's and cleaves, but you shouldn't be swapping oath if you're expecting that kind of dmg anyway.

A fun side note. Back in the Secure days of FL, a lot of Pld's would actually chose to roll as GLD instead, just so they could run with cross skills from Lancer. They lost all their Pld skills (including Sword Oath and Spirits Within), but gained an overall Dps increase using B4B, Invig and their PvP skills (such as Full Swing). There wasn't a huge difference in overall Dps, but if you were a particularly aggressive player it was an exploitable kit that got massive returns. Pld's that chose to do this saw dramatic decreases in their overall defense, but Bloodbath kept them sustainable for short bursts of combat, so long as the healer was aware of what they were doing.