A question from a newer player about the weight of each job.

What do you guys think is more valuable generally? A pure dps that plays 100% optimally. A BRD / MCH that plays 100% optimally. A tank that plays 100% optimally. A healer that plays 100% optimally.
Which is more rare to find?

They are all viable. A skilled player will stand out.

Tanks of any sort are the rarest role in my experience. A tank that plays 100% optimally though is exceptionally rare. I might go a month without encountering a great tank in the DF.

Nothing makes me happier than seeing a good DPS in DF.

Personally, I think it depends on the role you main. When you play a role for a long period of time, you consider your way the right way. So when you see others playing the role you main, everything they do will stand out to you more than someone playing a role you don't know very well. Which can it make it seem like good players of your main role are harder to find, as not everyone plays the way you do.

If you want quick ques, Tank or Healer. You can be the most skilled DPS ever it won't change how quickly you get into most things. The only thing it might change is access to Static high end Raiding.

I second jomoru

You can see à huge difference between à simple tank/heal and à skilled one that will be able to do more than his job and contribute to the DPS as well

Are we asking from a practical standpoint, or a literal one?

Practical, the most "Valuable" when played optimal is ofc subjective, but I would hazard a guess at BRD, with MCH close and conversely AST being in there but gated by RNG.
An "Optimal" support role allows others to play better, thats the idea of support and thus an optimal support aspect will typically always be the most "Valuable".

As for the Rarest, any given day that is a 50/50 toss up between Healers and Tanks plain and simple.

From a LITERAL standpoint though, it would be an Optimal Healer, since such a thing is near impossible in anything that has RNG elements.

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Originally Posted by Selli

Personally, I think it depends on the role you main. When you play a role for a long period of time, you consider your way the right way. So when you see others playing the role you main, everything they do will stand out to you more than someone playing a role you don't know very well. Which can it make it seem like good players of your main role are harder to find, as not everyone plays the way you do.

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Ha, you know that's probably how it is. I main a Paladin, but I spend a lot of time in the DF as a Machinist and throughout the whole run I keep thinking things like "Why aren't you keeping the monster still so that dragoon can aim his positionals?" and "Keep that AoE up or you're gonna--yep, now the healer is tanking". If I never played a tank I'd probably be oblivious to that sort of thing.

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Originally Posted by WellFooled

Ha, you know that's probably how it is. I main a Paladin, but I spend a lot of time in the DF as a Machinist and throughout the whole run I keep thinking things like "Why aren't you keeping the monster still so that dragoon can aim his positionals?" and "Keep that AoE up or you're gonna--yep, now the healer is tanking". If I never played a tank I'd probably be oblivious to that sort of thing.

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My boyfriend and I are exactly like that. XD When we go DPS, we silently sit there as he watches the tank and I watch the healer. Those poor DF pugs have no idea how hard they're working for their commendations beneath our judgmental gaze.

Most valuable (imo): someone willing/able to learn and adapt to different situations, regardless of role.

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Originally Posted by Selli

My boyfriend and I are exactly like that. XD When we go DPS, we silently sit there as he watches the tank and I watch the healer. Those poor DF pugs have no idea how hard they're working for their commendations beneath our judgmental gaze.

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I had such a frustrating SMA run yesterday that I left after the first boss (terribly botched pull) and decided no more DPSing in roulettes. Can't trust DF tanks/healers,

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Originally Posted by raela

I had such a frustrating SMA run yesterday that I left after the first boss (terribly botched pull) and decided no more DPSing in roulettes. Can't trust DF tanks/healers,

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Oh god, I know that feel. I wanted to BLM and ended up getting a WHM who ONLY used Cure III. >.< Trust no one but yourself!

The true goal of a dps btw is to become the tank XD happens alot to me....

in 4 man? tank
in 8 man ? healer

but i appreciate a good dps in any of the DR ...when pulls that take 30s are still alive after 1 min.... u can ever hear my /sigh

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

The true goal of a dps btw is to become the tank XD

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A 100% perfect DPS knows not to pull hate off the tank though :P A perfect DPS trails right behind the tank, always 1% lower than the tank on that hate bar :3

To answer the OP's question:
I personally apprechiate incedible healers the most.
I'll be honest, for most content, tanks...don't exactly have a hard job, in my opinion. It's mainly tank & spank with a bit of (re)positioning. Worst case, a tank swap or a stun. Of course, we've all experienced runs with horrible tanks, and it was, well, horrible ;) But for most stuff, there isn't all that much difference between a good tank and an okay tank, just a bit less dmg.

I LOVE awesome DPS. Really. When stuff dies faster than I've ever seen I'm happy, and when I see some people's parser numbers, I'm just feeling so..amazed. Especially if all this prowess is actually coupled with perfect execution of mechanics (which is rarely the case, thus making it even better to meet someone like that!). But in the end, DPS tend to do their own thing. It's great what they do, but it is easier(?) since it is somewhat limited to only themselves, at most, a bit of support depending on the dps class.

But when I see a perfect healer, I just..I don't know what to say. I don't even know how they do it. They save people from certain death, somehow manage to fix even the worst mess-ups of their teammates, stay alive when they should die, keep everyone healthy no matter what crazy amount of dmg is incoming, and out-dps half of the party. AND THEY STILL HAVE FULL MP...xD

As for rarity...I meet great DPS quite often. Great tanks are rarer, but I meet them once in a while. Only once met a "perfect" healer so far and saw one or two on youtube. To be fair, you often only see how calmly and perfectly a healer handles a bad situation if there is a bad situation in the first place, so they might be more common than I think :)

I'd say specifically a really good warrior is kind of the rare jewel even among organized groups
It just brings so much more than the other tanks but at the cost of demanding a more skilled player

after that a top of the line scholar or black mage would probably be a standout.

if your looking to be super desirable i'd probably avoid the ranged classes though, there are a lot of people playing them and no group ever wants more than one

Every patch I always see the same thing. top teams will be missing a main tank. why? propably a lot of reasons as other said, a main tank that performs exceptional /top level is a rare comonodity, highly sought after. most people will end up boared of tanking it's usually a matter of time. Warrior is almost a DPS atm unless 3.2 changes this, so they are always available in abundance. in HW good brds were harder to find than before. a really good brd will always find a team, because not alot of them can do the optimal rotation, but they also offer songs which is a bonus if they can pull decent dps. also in HW BRDs cant move while attacking anymore which meant a lot of main brds switch to other classes.

If i want to put jobs in order ( asuming skill is not an issue ):
Main tank ( PLD/DRK ) ==>> BRD ==> Healers ==> Mele ==> Caster

exceptional or top level will change the tables around.

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Originally Posted by starLivitation

...in HW BRDs cant move while attacking anymore...

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I know what you mean in regards to Wanderer's Minuet, however, a good Brd will attack on the move, when moving out of AoE etc. by using their attacks that are able to be used while moving. Brd and Drk are my mains, I prefer Brd when I don't want the responsibility of tanking, and have been playing Brd a lot as of late, even though I have the option to get instant or near instant queues as Drk. With that said, I just wanted to put it out there that a good Brd will use Feint, Bloodletter, Blunt Arrow, Rain of Death, Iron Jaws, Sidewinder, and/or Straight Shot (when refreshing Straighter Shot) in a situation where they need to move and they don't want to lose out on DPS.

As far as importance of jobs in group play, I would put tanks at #1, healers at #2, and then DPS. My reasoning is that if the tank can't keep the mobs off of the dps and healer the group is likely to wipe. Tank as more important than healer only because if the tank does not keep mobs off of the healer the healer most likely will not be able to cast due to interrupts from being attacked. DPS as last, not because I don't feel that they are important but because if the tank and healer aren't performing optimally the group is going to have much less chance of survival, whereas if a DPS is performing suboptimally the group still has a high survival rate and fights will just take longer.

I don't prefer any DPS job over another and am even very accepting of a group with 2 Brds, 2 Mchs, or a Brd and Mch, as I feel that, as long as the Brds and Mchs play their jobs well, their DPS will still be good enough for runs to take about the same amount of time as they would have with any other combination of DPS jobs.

A good bard will also know when to switch WM off so they can move, and put it back on when it's safe again. :P

Must say, ever since HW, bad bards are EVERYWHERE. And they're so easy to spot too, more so than any other job.

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Originally Posted by starLivitation

in HW good brds were harder to find than before.

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I'm leveling a BRD right now and two days ago, i was with another BRD (lvl 60) in the Dungeon, he harassment me 'cause i played Foe's Requiem, that would decrease my dmg. (Had a Scholar in the Grp)
Huh.. probably you are right.

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Originally Posted by Danatoth

A question from a newer player about the weight of each job.

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WAR 210 lbs
PLD 180 lbs
DRK 195 lbs

SCH 130 lbs
WHM 125 lbs
AST 135 lbs

BLM 100 lbs
SMN 130 lbs

BRD 90 lbs
MCH 230 lbs

MNK 75 lbs
NIN 80 lbs
DRG 250 lbs

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Originally Posted by Tiamara

I'm leveling a BRD right now and two days ago, i was with another BRD (lvl 60) in the Dungeon, he harassment me 'cause i played Foe's Requiem, that would decrease my dmg. (Had a Scholar in the Grp)
Huh.. probably you are right.

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...Whatevenisthis.

Smack him over the head with his own harp.

I think it depends on the type of content for me.

Most of the time, I appreciate good DPS more than I do a good tank or healer in a dungeon, as even if the tank or healer can't handle large pulls, good DPS wills till make the run proceed at a good pace most of the time (and poor DPS are very noticeable on large pulls). But it depends on what I'm playing, too: on WHM, I can make up for lower DPS on trash packs with Holy if I have a good tank, so I tend to really appreciate the solid ones then.

For EX Primals/Raids, I appreciate good healers more than the other roles though, as they are generally the ones that can patch up mistakes. Tanks and DPS can't do as much to cover for those sorts of things.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

WAR 210 lbs
PLD 180 lbs
DRK 195 lbs

SCH 130 lbs
WHM 125 lbs
AST 135 lbs

BLM 100 lbs
SMN 130 lbs

BRD 90 lbs
MCH 230 lbs

MNK 75 lbs
NIN 80 lbs
DRG 250 lbs

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almost right though MNK is more like 50 lbs cause we super light on our feet, featherfoot ftw XD

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Originally Posted by Selli

My boyfriend and I are exactly like that. XD When we go DPS, we silently sit there as he watches the tank and I watch the healer. Those poor DF pugs have no idea how hard they're working for their commendations beneath our judgmental gaze.

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Fortunately for me, I don't tank for the Comms. I tank because it's a favored job for me now, and secondly because I like to help those DPS who have long queue times to be able to enter their content.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

almost right though MNK is more like 50 lbs cause we super light on our feet, featherfoot ftw XD

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Oh right, I almost forgot!

For Duty Finder: Really good DPS is the hardest to find and the most valuable imo. Naturally if any of the roles are bad it's going to suck, but by far terrible dps is the biggest problem encountered in duty finder. Like I can't even tank in duty finder any more. I want to, but the dps is always so bad that it's enraging. Typically it's faster for me to queue as a dps and wait rather than tank insta queue and then have a 45 minute dungeon run.

For replacing static members: I feel like a really good healer is the hardest to find. Decent tanks are pretty common. Good DPS can be tough depending on the role trying to find.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

WAR 210 lbs
PLD 180 lbs
DRK 195 lbs

SCH 130 lbs
WHM 125 lbs
AST 135 lbs

BLM 100 lbs
SMN 130 lbs

BRD 90 lbs
MCH 230 lbs

MNK 75 lbs
NIN 80 lbs
DRG 250 lbs

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Why MCH is heavier than WAR? Is it because of the gun with barrel + turret?

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Originally Posted by Eul

Why MCH is heavier than WAR? Is it because of the gun with barrel + turret?

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Gun, barrel, two turrets, tons of ammo, aetherotransformer, wrenches, shotgun rounds, machine gun rounds, sniper rounds, grenades...

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Originally Posted by Selli

My boyfriend and I are exactly like that. XD When we go DPS, we silently sit there as he watches the tank and I watch the healer. Those poor DF pugs have no idea how hard they're working for their commendations beneath our judgmental gaze.

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http://puu.sh/n5COX/fa2504547e.jpg

"I am judging you so harshly right now."

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

MNK 75 lbs

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I think this should probably be amended so that it is also race dependent. You show me a Roegadyn monk that weighs in at 75 pounds and I'll show you... well, possibly a Roegadyn monk's left foot? That 230 lb Machinist seems a bit rotund for a Lalafell, too. :3

I am pretty good tank. 90% of the time i get three commendations for every df i run. finding a good tank is hard and do be honest i hate tanking sometimes. I only do it because it is usually the adventurer in need

Tanks and healers tend to be rare in general due to the importance of the role: A lot of players don't want to take responsibility, and prefer a role where if they half-ass it nobody minds. Ironically enough though, this does actually mean skilled DPS are probably the rarest thing about. Usually you can take any random tank or healer and assume they will do their job adequately. They signed up for the responsibility, and usually care enough to learn how to play their job well.

DPS, on the other hand, as I mentioned earlier attract a lot of players who don't like responsibility. Your average DPS player will slack off, expecting the other DPS, the tank, and the healer's damage to carry them through the instance. However, a lot of content does actually require DPS to bring their A game, and on top of that actually playing a DPS to the best of one's ability is harder than a healer or tank IMO. These two factors combined mean that DPS who push their damage to the best of their ability while still executing mechanics are rare and precious.

So, I suppose it boils down to whether you want fast parties (tank or healer) or wish to have better chances at smoothly completing content (DPS)

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

WAR 210 lbs
PLD 180 lbs
DRK 195 lbs

SCH 130 lbs
WHM 125 lbs
AST 135 lbs

BLM 100 lbs
SMN 130 lbs

BRD 90 lbs
MCH 230 lbs

MNK 75 lbs
NIN 80 lbs
DRG 250 lbs

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Someone get that BRD, MNK, and NIN some sandwiches. D:

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

http://puu.sh/n5COX/fa2504547e.jpg

"I am judging you so harshly right now."

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This is 100% accurate. XD Have my like.

http://i.imgur.com/CNL4KdH.jpg

Warrior is the black hole

Depends on the type of content. I think good anything are rare in DF. Dps maybe more so, the average player doesn't seem to research rotations and therefore end up doing poorly, so they get carried through everything. In general, tanks are lacking, so you'll nearly always get an instant queue as one.

For primal farms I find good healers are harder to come by. You won't find many who can dps, keep everyone alive, do mechanics, and manage their mp correctly.

For end-game raiding I think really good warriors are rare. In serious groups, they're expected to do high dps on top of off-tanking, and it's not easy finding one who can manage both.

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Originally Posted by Selli

My boyfriend and I are exactly like that. XD When we go DPS, we silently sit there as he watches the tank and I watch the healer. Those poor DF pugs have no idea how hard they're working for their commendations beneath our judgmental gaze.

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omg Selli tooo funny but hey someone has to watch tank and healer to make sure they are doing their jobs and it may as well be us dps XD

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Originally Posted by raela

I had such a frustrating SMA run yesterday that I left after the first boss (terribly botched pull) and decided no more DPSing in roulettes. Can't trust DF tanks/healers,

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Happens a lot to me, I feel like I should play x role cause I get a bad tank/healer repeatedly then I go back to my main anyway. Honestly the worst (imo) is when you get two bad dps. Bad dps are cancer. No I don't care that you want to roleplay an icemage, you are doing shite damage please make this run not last an hour and 20 minutes x.x

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

WAR 210 lbs
PLD 180 lbs
DRK 195 lbs

SCH 130 lbs
WHM 125 lbs
AST 135 lbs

BLM 100 lbs
SMN 130 lbs

BRD 90 lbs
MCH 230 lbs

MNK 75 lbs
NIN 80 lbs
DRG 250 lbs

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I laughed.

I think it depends what instance you are in.

If we are talking about raids...like savage/more serious raids, it's going to be healers (imho) hands down. It's a twitchy job to play in the harder instances. Not only do you need a good grasp of the job but you need to plan ahead AND need a speedy connnection AND a good control scheme to execute your heals.

Farm dungeons for tomes, DPS are the mvp and only 2nd to that would be a tank that can do decent threat. It's a combination of things to be sure, if you can get a healer that can also feel comfortable to dps too, that is a big plus. But dps who know what to do and aren't jerky about it by pulling early shine here.

Pugged trial roulette and random primals? This is where I say good tanks shine. No one likes to really talk too much in random pugged trial/primal fights. Special bonus if two tanks can figure out who is main tanking and not fight over the boss without even speaking.

That's just a rundown of my personal feelings, your mileage may vary.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

omg Selli tooo funny but hey someone has to watch tank and healer to make sure they are doing their jobs and it may as well be us dps XD

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Makes me curious if any tanks and healers watch each other, especially when they're playing their opposite role.

Whenever I decide to pick up tank I'm too busy freaking out to look at what anyone else is doing. My mind is constantly screaming, "Do I even have aggro on anything?! Should I spam my aggro AoE more?! I'm all out of TP/MP! We're all going to die!"

(I'm not a very good tank. XD)

tanking... gave up about 2.4? lol cause i prefer to dps over playing the turtle XD