Job/Merit points? (Idea)

Okay, before people get irritated that I'm bringing up FFXI hear me out.

Among the complaints of "ded gaem" (dead game) between patches, would it be a good idea to put in a way to earn points to enhance our jobs?

Even after hitting level 60, you could still earn exp and say 1,500,000 exp = 1 merit point.

You could then allot it to improve the jobs skills by a small percentage. For example:

For MNK, each merit point into "Greased lightning" will increase the duration by one second for a total of five seconds maximum.
Or say MCH, each merit point into "Turret Damage" will increase damage dealt by turrets by 5% for a total of 25% when upgraded fully.

It doesn't have to be related to skills for job, but can affect stats as well like "Curing potency" for healers, Defense for tanks, STR, DEX, MND, Critical Hit, etc.

This way there would be something for players to work on between patches who complain that there is nothing to do. It would also breathe life into dungeons (in theory), beast tribe dailies, fates, etc.

Only if it were implemented in a way that actually promotes choice and diversity with enhancements rather than just a set, clear path.

However, SE doesn't seem to like integrating any real choice into FFXIV and would rather have more homogenized jobs. I think with the current game design, we would just end up with everyone allocating merit points identically for every job, the same way we do with stats (for the most part).

Then we get into the whole PF of "Must have maxed merit points!"

Sorry but i don't like this idea, this would just be something else to grind on instead of something to do when bored, and like Alpha said this would turn into a priority for end-game content since it affects the overall performance of your Job.

The thing is, players who want the Merit Point system forget the whole reason it was even in FFXI in the first place - it was not to give players extra customization of stats, but to compensate for the fact the level cap was frozen at level 75 for over five years, and Job Points only built on that again because the level cap has now been raised as far as it can logically go (level 99).

FFXIV is a long way away from ever reaching that point so I won't hold my breath ever seeing such a system be introduced here in FFXIV, at least not for a long time yet, if at all.

I liked the merit point idea in FF11, if implemented right it could encourage a little diversity and give people a reason to do content on their level 60 jobs, which would help out others who are leveling.

I doubt it will happen though, ideas from FF11 seem to be like Kryptonite to many FF14 players.

Give me three things;

Physical Level - Your current Level, so Level 60 Ninja, for example.
Job Level - Effectively the same as Item Levels currently, but not attached to Gear, instead you raise this by simply doing content, similar to a Merit system, albeit far more specific.
Item Level - Working somewhat similar to Morale in PvP, acting as a boost, though with a cap. Item Level 200 would boost you up to to Job Level 200 stats, for example, to open you up to do more content to raise your Job Level with.

Gear effectively becomes something to "train" in, then. The aim would be to cap your Job Level by doing everything. Content would still be readily accessible, you'd just need the gear as you currently do, but the long term goal in the game would be capping your Job Level. 3.0s cap could have been Job Level 210 after Esoterics and Alexander (Savage) were applied, 3.1 then added new dungeons and Void Ark. That would be easier than Alexander (Savage), but it would help people raise their Job Level, as it did with Item Level. The Job Level cap would then move to 215 though, doing everything but Alexander (Savage) would get you to 210 in 3.1. If you'd done Alexander (Savage) and everything 3.0 offered before 3.1, you'd be at 210 already, and new dungeons/Void Ark maintain relevance because of the extra 5 Job Levels they'd provide you. You wouldn't sit there going "I don't need to do Thordan (Extreme) of Anima weapons, because I've already got an i210 weapon from Alexander (Savage)", you'd go after that content to raise your Job Level by 5.

Problems like Bismarck (Extreme) then don't occur. You'd be able to skip over Bismarck (Extreme) in terms of Item Level as we currently do, but in terms of Job Level? No, you'd need to do it still, it would be worth some Job Levels. If you don't do it then you'd never cap your Job Level. Old content like Coil and Crystal Tower then become very relevant, because you'd want to do them in order to max out your Job Level. In the sort term, Job Level doesn't matter, because Item Level will carry your stats. In the long term though, it's a status symbol, something to work on, and ultimately a bonus. Right now the Item Level cap is 210, but the Job Level cap would be 215. People would jump back into Crystal Tower to grind up their Job Level as a result.

Arguably the only problem with this is elitism... You'll see people saying "Must have Job Level X", but... We already see elitism... We already have people going "No Bonus" or "Item Level X", what would a Job Level really change? It would be a significant grind that makes all content relevant. Casuals can ignore it and continue chasing Item Levels. Other than the extra 5 levels provided in our odd number patches, it doesn't really change anything. It's just a long term goal for the "hardcore" players (something entirely missing from the game currently), that can arguably help queues on old and irrelevant content.

Granted, it's not exactly a Merit type system, not the second level of Merits at least. The original Merits in XI were stat based, then they added Job specific Merits. Job specific Merits would be hard to work into XIV though, they allowed for choice in a game with very loose balancing... Here things are balanced very tightly, we'd just get a situation where X Job is best off with Y Merits, better to just cut out the choice ultimately IMO. There is still a choice involved though, it just comes in the journey. The destination is an ultimate cap where you've put points into everything, the choice comes in the journey and what points you prioritize as you're capping.

customization in FFXIV? thats madness!

http://forums.androidcentral.com/att...ness-11728.jpg

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

customization in FFXIV? thats madness!

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+1...

(The idea is extremely good, I didn't make post myself because people turns salty when I do, but, yes, we deserve some more customization, at last.)

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Originally Posted by Darkstride

Only if it were implemented in a way that actually promotes choice and diversity with enhancements rather than just a set, clear path.

However, SE doesn't seem to like integrating any real choice into FFXIV and would rather have more homogenized jobs. I think with the current game design, we would just end up with everyone allocating merit points identically for every job, the same way we do with stats (for the most part).

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Choice doesn't exactly exist when it comes to making your character stronger for your own goals. A clear and essentially set path is always going to exist when it comes to the numbers game. The only actual choice that does exist, however, is which set path you want to take. Math destroys the idea of "choice" when it comes to MMORPGs and picking what would be considered the "best" option. Would you rather put points into things that help you solo? PvP? Raid? Those are your choices. From my own experience with these things, the only one that tends to have the most freedom is the solo, and occasionally PvP, approach.

Plus, unless it were purely aesthetic benefits, bonuses to a character must have some sort of appeal to even bother with. The options

- It's having nothing of noteworthy value, e.g. Slightly increases resistance to petrification (the path that has the most freedom of equal choice without imbalance)
- Having some useless options and some decent/good options to choose from (obvious path is obvious)
- Having all decent/good options that would likely end up making the job OP, e.g. reduce GCD/CD, haste effects, stat boosts, etc (parsers will determine which is most worthwhile, so again a set path)

So unless you'd rather they included something generally pointless, you're going to follow some cookie cutter to perform optimally. It's inevitable in every game that involves output performance with customization options.

Having said all that though, I am for the idea of merits. While the choice thing that you're talking about and wanting is not a realistic possibility, the idea that we're not wasting our time doing things along the way (like killing mobs in a dungeon of any level), at least becomes rewarding in its own way.

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Originally Posted by Darkstride

Only if it were implemented in a way that actually promotes choice and diversity with enhancements rather than just a set, clear path.

However, SE doesn't seem to like integrating any real choice into FFXIV and would rather have more homogenized jobs. I think with the current game design, we would just end up with everyone allocating merit points identically for every job, the same way we do with stats (for the most part).

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Which is what happens in FFXI. Anyone doing Alluvion skirmishes will have the same gear and job point setup as described on FFXIAH. People always go towards the optimal build.

When I want to play a game with a point system such as this, I load up Everquest. The class in that game with the fewest points (they are called Alternate Advancement points there) has over 11,000 such points to earn to buy everything, thanks to the age of the system and the game. The class with the most has over 16,000 AA points.

Eventually such points become a supplement to leveling, and while leveling from 1 to 105 in EQ (or from 1 to 60 here) is one thing, getting 11k+ AA's on top of that is a much more daunting task. Adding such points to this game will result in getting to a similar place should the game last long enough.

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

I liked the merit point idea in FF11, if implemented right it could encourage a little diversity and give people a reason to do content on their level 60 jobs, which would help out others who are leveling.

I doubt it will happen though, ideas from FF11 seem to be like Kryptonite to many FF14 players.

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Blame the professional endgamers and their Microsoft Excel fetish for that. They cannot be trusted with the concept of merit/Job point systems

Merits were added because at the time the dev team didn't want to raise the level cap past 75 but they wanted people to grind more exp to get some more stats and abilities. FFXIV isn't at the point where they are going to stop raising the level cap. Job points were added for the same reason once the level cap was at 99 they wanted yet another system to add stuff to your character by grinding more exp.

I don't think this community can handle choices.

On one hand you will have the people who only cares about being better and they will seek out the most efficient way and stick to it.

On the other hand you got the people that doesn't always care about achieving max performance and rather play around a little to see what funky things one might come up with.

But....

Seeing as we already have cases of people being abused simply for being new or not doing the optimal rotation then i would dread what would happen if a system like this is implemented.

As much as i would love something like this, this game was not meant to have it and most likely never will.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

Math destroys the idea of "choice" when it comes to MMORPGs and picking what would be considered the "best" option.

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Well I suppose I was naive enough to forget about that detail. Then also remembered how FFXI endgame became that "Must have XXX job with this setup". It's a shame though, I think even for a while people only bought BRDs, BLM, and PLDs to ARR endgame for before SE fixed that now that I had all day to think about this.

Still though, could there be something we could do with our mains? Maybe instead of merit points some kind of spendable token we could spend on something like glamour items, furnishings, minions, mounts, etc. Something to work for at least.

I'd like something like a Mastery System to go with the Mentor System. Just like you "master" jobs in other FFs, you could master the ones here, exactly like Mastery works on MOBA games.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

I'd like something like a Mastery System to go with the Mentor System. Just like you "master" jobs in other FFs, you could master the ones here, exactly like Mastery works on MOBA games.

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..Get a shiney medal for every time you do a dungeon with a job?

Do people just not like playing a game for the sake of playing a game anymore?

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

Then we get into the whole PF of "Must have maxed merit points!"

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Do you see "Must have BiS to join" in every PF ? It's basically the same.

For Merits points, I'd like a Paragon system like Diablo 3. In the end, you could max everything, but the order at which you do it would all be yours.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

..Get a shiney medal for every time you do a dungeon with a job?

Do people just not like playing a game for the sake of playing a game anymore?

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Jesus, why are you so defensive? Yes, I play the game for the sake of playing, and that's why I started an alt and I'm leveling all classes together to 30, 40 and so on. Because I love playing the game just for the sake of playing it.

What I proposed is something that wouldn't cause any trouble to anyone, to show how much experience you have with a certain class, just like a degree or something. Just like a character in FF5 gets a mastery status with 3 stars above his head after acquiring all abilities with certain job. It could be linked to the Mentor System (do Mentor roulette X times as Y class).

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

Then we get into the whole PF of "Must have maxed merit points!"

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And that is the community at fault. not SE.
This community is spoiled with rotten apples at times, Like every game.

FFXIV Just takes it to a whole new level, Often the idiotic people that make clear parties/farm groups with - KNOW ALL PHASES 100% 1FAIL=KICK.
Fail themselfs, And at the same time they fail to kick themselfs.

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Originally Posted by Blitzace

And that is the community at fault. not SE.

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Design always influences player behavior (so yes, it is SE's fault).

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The problem with merits was, as mentioned earlier, the fact that it padded out FFXI's lifespan due to being stack at specific level caps. The other part is that they were the epitome of false choices in terms of design (see: Dark Knights being given the choice to merit useless abilities like Arcane Circle or useful abilities like Soul Eater).

As I've said before, something to consider would be using merits to cosmetically affect your character rather than affect performance. Maybe allow you to purchase the option to glamour gear your job can't equip (a BLM meriting the ability to glamour Of Striking gear), alter visual effects of abilities/spells (maybe change the explosion effect for Fire III into a burning rock falling on the target), or possibly some extra cosmetic abilities (a DRG meriting the ability to super jump around instead of using a mount). The potential is there, the devs simply need to devote time to it.

It's an interesting idea, but it would just become one more thing a "good" player of the class has. It's like cross-class skills right now. No one is encouraged to experiment and find new ways that work because if they don't have the "required" cross-class skills they're inferior. I've seen this sort of system become cookie cutter in other games like EQ, EQ2, and WoW as well. Now if they could implement it like Diablo II talent trees where you actually could have different successful builds, they might be on to something.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Now if they could implement it like Diablo II talent trees where you actually could have different successful builds, they might be on to something.

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I think the main problem with trees like that is that it is always expensive or difficult to respec; which gives people incentive to pick the "optimal" set of skills for most situations. When I first saw this thread I envisioned a skill/trait tree for each class in which you can only put so many points, and any excess points you earn (up to a cap) give you the ability to reassign a single point.

The other problem is that there's little incentive to experiment. So you could also have it such that you have to choose once per day which skills you want active, and you can't pick skills you've used in the last two days or so. That also gives you room to play your class slightly differently each time but still have your perceived "optimal" set available for whenever you schedule your raids.

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Originally Posted by DarthVella

So you could also have it such that you have to choose once per day which skills you want active, and you can't pick skills you've used in the last two days or so. That also gives you room to play your class slightly differently each time but still have your perceived "optimal" set available for whenever you schedule your raids.

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A system like Diablo III. You could buy all of your skills in the end, but you can only pick a few of them at any given time.

I don't think "once a day" is necessary. You could just do like the cross-class skills, where everything is put on cooldown once you change a skill.

Ah, okay. Sorry, I was just gabbing off ideas as they came to me and didn't know how Diablo did theirs.

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Originally Posted by Tracewood

...Even after hitting level 60, you could still earn exp and say 1,500,000 exp = 1 merit point...

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I like it but still want to say it was so naive! Sorry.^^; I am pretty sure SE will not let you earn the points by this way as it is no pain to eveyrone.
Very likely they will give you an item and you have to fill it by something like "light farming" + optionally throw many materiaV into it,
then you get 1 pt, you need 20pt to + 1str. then everyone will blame they cannot max it in a week ^^;

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Originally Posted by DarthVella

I think the main problem with trees like that is that it is always expensive or difficult to respec; which gives people incentive to pick the "optimal" set of skills for most situations.

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Not always. It was fairly easy to change your trees around in EQ2 and you could even save different builds I think, but that game suffered from having really good and desirable skills in x tree and then total crap in the others. It's a single player (or co-op) game, but Borderlands II would be another good example. It's fairly easy IIRC to swap your skills around to try out different builds and they all have the traits of the base class but play just differently enough to keep things interesting. Unfortunately, it would require a lot of dev resources to balance everything properly and I don't think FF has the dev team they would need for it right now.

Instead of choices, you can have enough points to max everything. The only real choice is how you prioirtize them.

I badly want this so that my main job really feels like my main job, and as something to do during content voids. But XIV sets a fast vertical pace already. The game would need to go horizontal for awhile for a system like this to flourish.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

Math destroys the idea of "choice" when it comes to MMORPGs and picking what would be considered the "best" option.

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This statement is absolutely true and bears repeating. I think a lot people asking for more options forget this.

I'll take options, not more leveling. Give me a different "school" of archery, a different "aspect" of the dragoon, or different 'variations' of Heavy Thrust, etc., but I've no interest in leveling GL enough to cheese every jump in a particular fight, every pure offensive buff or damaging ability to maximum, support buffs for effect or duration, and my mitigation to where I'm swap-proofed, all just to get where I'm considered 'complete'.
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Only because of the quote above me, sorry Welsper:

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

Choice doesn't exactly exist when it comes to making your character stronger for your own goals. A clear and essentially set path is always going to exist when it comes to the numbers game. The only actual choice that does exist, however, is which set path you want to take. Math destroys the idea of "choice" when it comes to MMORPGs and picking what would be considered the "best" option.

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Math doesn't destroy choices. Imbalance does. There are plenty of far more popular talent choices in WoW, for instance, that aren't mathematically optimal, simply because they have a reduced skill cap; it's harder for them to go wrong, attracting the less confident or more necessarily battlefield-attentive players. In many other cases the talents provide different playstyles while achieving near identical results in a variety of situations. That's well done. The only times they're lackluster talent-swap-tome-spenders are when, excused by the alleged "illusion of choice", they simply craft one specifically aligned talent for each situation (your single-target, your cleave, and your true AoE).

That said, 100% agree when it comes to this being pathed. I just think there can still be enough variance within those paths to feel diverse.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

Having said all that though, I am for the idea of merits. While the choice thing that you're talking about and wanting is not a realistic possibility, the idea that we're not wasting our time doing things along the way (like killing mobs in a dungeon of any level), at least becomes rewarding in its own way.

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I get the same pang of regret sometimes, but it really is pretty much mitigated by the fact that I'm doing those things for the tomes or the gear, and I'm getting exactly that. The only thing I might want more, really, is a half-decent conversion of capped exp gains to bonus exp, especially in particular settings (e.g. healing for 3 friends while they level their newfangled Ninjas (back in 2.4), and then swapping back to mine while someone else rotates into that role). I just really don't want to tap on an additional, somewhat ambiguous, layer of leveling to all our capped classes at this point.

what i see alot want for merit system here i my ideal on this first the merit system would allow you earn job traits. these job trait up to players. for example the dragoon could chosen thing do i want wyren as my pet or do i want more strength to my attack. for summoner this work as a way for the summoner to both gain more iges and strength they own iges i find need for ige glamour uneed but i find that one doesn't throw ige model that maybe glamoured but more as fact ige would grown stronger and your control over them allow you chosen ige glamour instead such iges would more skills areas that players want them have. for example the paladin could gain rez for merit of traits. this also may possible give the dev a way improve exsistes jobs.

If the Merit System from FFXI were to be implemented in FFXIV, so as to halt mere player levels (i.e. straight up increase to a plethora of stats each level) and instead offer a means for players to select stats of their own choice to increase, then that may solve the sneaking problem of power-creep. However, people will eventually figure out what is mathematical/ theoretically 'optimal' and it'll be a case of everyone following suit in sheep-like fashion, irrespective of how minimal the difference would actually make to them, if even at all, in reality it actually did, making the artifice of the choices redundant, and overall superficial.

The problems with 'perceived choice' systems in FFXIV, such as the Merit System are:-
(1) Inter-Job balance vs. superficiality/ trivialisation of differences (i.e. situational or general standard builds, and how well balanced they are overall)
(2) Inter-Role balance (i.e. the 'take the class, not the player' dilemma).
(3) cross-role balance (e.g. Role encroachment).
(4) Overall balance, which would also encompass encounter balance, too.
(5) Would the grind (which presumably there'd be), be meaningful and perceived as on par with the typical raising of the level cap?