Black Mage or Summoner, which is the easier Magic-based DPS class?

I wasn't sure if this really belonged here, or if I should post it in the Disciple of Magic section of the forums, but I wanted an opinion, and this seemed like the best section to post this in...

I was wondering if you guys could help me figure out which of the two main Magic DPS is easier to play at end game? I have heard several different opinions on the matter. Some people say that Black Mage is easier, while others claim that Summoner is easier.

The main thing that I need people to keep in mind is that I am not necessarily looking for a class that I can play high tier Alexander Savage, and the new Primal Extreme stuff with, as I personally think that those things may be a tad bit outside of my league at the moment. What I am looking for is a class that is fun to play, but also which doesn't have a huge amount of graphical errors the way that Bard does.

For a long time Bard was my go-to class, but lately that has changed as I realized I am not really fond of the graphical errors caused by the quivers on most of the end-game Bows.

There's a DoM sub-forum...?

You're changing your job because of quivers clipping? I guess that's a reason as any. Anyways, from what I know about SMNs -- which is not that much in the end, I'll give you that -- it seems that BLM would have the more straightforward rotation in the the sense that you basically use two different spells in fire, one to two in ice, and two different for transitioning between them. There's more to it than that, of course, but that's the basic gist of it. It's also very error-prone and you can easily screw yourself over if you're not used to the timers you have to manage which, by the way, should get more lenient come next patch. At least Enochianless DPS is not horrible tier, but still drops noticeably. Any movement can and probably will kill BLM DPS, if you're not used to the fight

SMN, I believe, has more min-maxing than BLM and their opener is quite complicated from what I've heard, but you shouldn't need to worry too mcuh about that, if you're not interested in the end game raids, and I don't think you can do too much wrong with the Dreadwyrm Trance as long as you don't blow Deahtflare immediately. Pet management is also a thing, but they can work pretty autonomously, which is good enough for dungeons -- unless it's a Garuda throwing mobs around. Please don't do that. I don't even know what knockback works on nowadays, though.

BLM staves tend to clip through benches and big hats.

I think it's more about the playstyle in the end. Do you like watching your dot timers and managing your pet while doing constant small stream of numbers, or do you want to keep an eye out for self buffs and making sure they don't drop while getting big hits in? Someone who actually plays Summoner can chime in more, and the BLM explanation was pretty bare bones.

SMN.

SMN might even be the easiest DPS at level 60; you learn how to execute your desired opener, and you just do it. Any changes in the fights are usually pluses to the rotation, like multi-DoTing or getting some stronger Painflare/Deathflare action and with some practice, it's really easy to know how to adjust. Hopefully you have a preference for a lot of buttons though, if you're on a controller be prepared to swap between 2-3 pages of commands constantly.

BLM presses less but has the potential to get screwed over much harder. It's not exactly rocket science but you can't just learn the rotation and go do well, you're adapting many things to any fight at hand.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

There's a DoM sub-forum...?

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Oops, ignore that part... that was a relic from where I originally posted this...

The clipping through benches and big hats shouldn't be a problem on Black Mage for me, as I tend to not have the weapon visible when sitting. The main problem I had with Bard was that it clipped when it was out for attacks, which was irksome for me.

My biggest problem that I have is the level to which I tend to tunnel vision. My tunnel visioning is the primary reason I can't play tanks, as I tend to focus on doing one thing to the exclusion of all else, which is why the more people describe the level of stuff that the Summoner has to focus on, the less I am beginning to think that particular class is really for me...

Do you want to manage a Pet and manage all your DoT attacks on all enemies while having free movement? And shooting the occasional Satellite Laser? Summoner is for you.

Or do you want to just stand still and blow the crap out of something and never really worry about MP? Black Mage is for you.

So take your pick. Watch things burn slowly or give them the bomb.

SMN is much more involved than BLM, but also more forgiving. SMN is easier for learning fights and BLM is easier once you know the mechanics.

Its easier to be a decent SMN than a decent BLM, but harder to be a great SMN than a great BLM.

It really just comes down to personal preference and play style. SMN requires more micromanaging and BLM requires more raid awareness.

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Originally Posted by SnugglesD

SMN is much more involved than BLM, but also more forgiving. SMN is easier for learning fights and BLM is easier once you know the mechanics.

Its easier to be a decent SMN than a decent BLM, but harder to be a great SMN than a great BLM.

It really just comes down to personal preference and play style. SMN requires more micromanaging and BLM requires more raid awareness.

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I guess what I really want to know then is this:

Will end-game Raid Groups take a "decent" Summoner, or will they only take those of the "great" category?

I ask mainly because I have enough experience micromanaging pets due to having spent most of my level 30-60 time leveling Scholar, but I don't think I am quite up to par to being a truly Great Summoner at the current time...

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Originally Posted by Tharian

I guess what I really want to know then is this:

Will end-game Raid Groups take a "decent" Summoner, or will they only take those of the "great" category?

I ask mainly because I have enough experience micromanaging pets due to having spent most of my level 30-60 time leveling Scholar, but I don't think I am quite up to par to being a truly Great Summoner at the current time...

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Groups take SMN. Very few groups will only take one or the other, unless it's a group stuck on A2 Savage I suppose.

And is it possible to be a "decent" Summoner without having an absolutely perfected Opening Rotation?

I only ask because I am not nearly obsessive compulsive enough to really spend a crap ton of time perfecting the opening rotation at the current time.

Well...you are looking for an end game raid group. So when you move beyond the level of casual play, you really should learn your opener pretty well. It takes practice to be good at any job in this game. And the opener is the easy part. Chopping up your rotation to maximize dps as bosses jump and become invulnerable, adds pop, and you do mechanics is where more of the learning and skill kick in. Your opener should just be muscle memory...which it won't be...if you don't practice it and use it pretty frequently. That being said, even if you don't dummy practice it, you will have plenty of time to work on it as you group wipes over and over in A3.

Don't confuse being obsessive compulsive and wanting to the the best teammate you can be, within reason. They are not the same thing. If I was a raid leader, and your post was an application...I wouldn't take you. But it has nothing to do with the job you are playing. So much has to happen to have a strong raid team to come together and succeed, not wanting to put in some effort to perfect your opener isn't a great sign of things to come. Caring about your performance and putting in effort to be good are a core part of becoming successful. If you deem that as a chore, instead of fun, perhaps end game raiding isn’t for you.

I wouldn't say that I won't put in the effort to learn those things... more that I would be doing it inbetween the other things that I do.

What I mean is that I don't want to sit in front of a Training Dummy for 72 hours straight or so doing nothing but committing a rotation to muscle memory. That to me is not fun. To me it is more fun trying to learn the rotation on the fly while doing normal dungeons and stuff, while sitting at a Dummy during down time trying to learn things.

That said, having a strict rotation that I must follow of the sort that Summoner appears to have... that is also not something that I am overly fond of. I think I can handle the Rotation of the Black Mage easier than I could the Summoner, despite the fact that the Black Mage has more risk of dropping it's self-buffs if it moves too much.

As I said, I am a victim of extreme tunnel vision, and focusing on too many things at one time (such as with the Summoner and micromanaging of pets, managing the Opener, etc...) just does not work well for me.

I guess what this means is that Black Mage is probably the class I will be focusing on. Thanks guys.

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Originally Posted by Tharian

As I said, I am a victim of extreme tunnel vision, and focusing on too many things at one time (such as with the Summoner and micromanaging of pets, managing the Opener, etc...) just does not work well for me.

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Are you sure you don't like Bard? Because I feel that I'm just like you and the only class I'm really competent on DPS is BRD (I'm a main WHM, and while I can keep track of my HoTs, party HP, boss actions, placements and timing, I can't keep track of Enochian + AF/UI timers because my mind is a funny little thing). I've tried Summoner too, and there are lots of cooldowns to keep track too, including pet ones (and using a controller makes it harder to keep track of all of them, because you need to memorize the cooldown time since you won't be seeing them all the time if they're not on the first crossbar).

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Originally Posted by Tharian

And is it possible to be a "decent" Summoner without having an absolutely perfected Opening Rotation?

I only ask because I am not nearly obsessive compulsive enough to really spend a crap ton of time perfecting the opening rotation at the current time.

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Pretty much what Sidra said.

But on the topic of the opener, the SMN openers are a lot of fun to pull off. Its not hard, per se, just kinda lengthy. There are actually a few of them that are used in different fights, i.e. short burst opener when mechanics will interrupt and you need DWT faster, slower, higher potency when you have the time for it, etc, and knowing when to use them and executing them properly is where the fun of SMN comes from. You won't need 72 hours on a training dummy to pull them off, but it will take practice, and have to be willing to do it if you want to raid.

ya while people here are making the opener and rotation sound spooky there really isn't a whole lot to it and is easily learned by applying simple logic more so then most classes. I would say if you want easy, SMN is as easy as it gets. BLM actually takes a bit of skill from knowing when to put down leylines and when you can afford lengthy casts, as well as being much more rotation dependent. SMN is really just pop your opener, keep up DoT's (Miasma > Bio II > Bio), spam Ruin II like it's out of style (Ruin I if low MP... which is rarely ever), pop Fester>Pain>Fester (Single Target - Boss) / Bane > Fester >Pain (Trash Pack with 1 priority target) / Bane > Pain > Bane/Pain (Just Trash), Spam Ruin 3 til 5-4 secs left, pop a Tri-Disaster for maximum DoT potency, death flare, repeat. Miasma II is really the only real niche situational spell in your arsenal, if you ever use it. I like to use it on trash if I got the MP to throw away and want a lil more kill power; but for the most part you avoid using it because of the gross MP cost.

Sure you can probably get far more situational and crunch every casting second if you want to be server first SMN. But if you're looking to just clear stuff, you really don't need to learn much as much as it's managing DoT timers and trying to drop as many Ruin 3/Death Flares as you possibly can while keeping in mind of mechanics to dodge or eating a Trance by popping it at an untargetable time of the fight.

Oh and "Managing your pet" here is the lazy way to do it (assuming you're Garuda is out, because for most fights that are not PVP, Garuda is GOD) leave it on Sic (let it do the work and pop it's own abilities) and before Contagion comes up, put it on Obey, apply DoTs > Hit Contagion > Set back to Sic. Spur/Rouse when you can and try to coordinate them with popping Enkindle for a bit more damage. Your pet is seriously the least of your concern, and frankly only requires your attention if you're using Garuda/Contagion or really need a stun with Ifrit/Crimson Cyclone.... Or Garuda's Shockwave is pissing your party off, then ya Obey is a good thing to have on.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

Are you sure you don't like Bard? Because I feel that I'm just like you and the only class I'm really competent on DPS is BRD.

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I have to admit, I really do love Bard... the real deal breaker for me is the fact that on all of the really cool looking bows (mainly the Relic and Anima Bows), the quiver is just so absurdly long that it looks really weird on the female character model, which is what I play. I suppose I could try to ignore it, but it just feels weird.

Alternatively I suppose I could try figuring out the Machinist, as I hear that the Machinist is remarkably well situated in terms of the DPS it outputs. My main problem with the Machinist though is the fact that I can never remember to place the Turret on the map, which tends to massively reduce the DPS or Support capabilities of the class.

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Originally Posted by Lilith_Merquise

Application to Got Gid Community College

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Your entire post could probably be more wrong, but you'd seriously have to work at it.

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Originally Posted by SnugglesD

Your entire post could probably be more wrong, but you'd seriously have to work at it.

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If you say so, I do just fine as a SMN, numbers and all. Again, am I top Server DPS, nope. Am I trying to say this person will be if they do as I said, nope. But will they be some 500-700 DPS scrub that puts on DoT's wrong, and uses Tri-Disaster outside of Trance to "Ruin I more" definitely not. I'm saying the bare necessities you need to do, to be passable, I NEVER and even repeatedly said it would not accomplish TOP DPS Numbers. But being that the player said they are not looking to learn some crazy End Game Min-Max rotation and want the class to be effective with the minimum amount of effort (as the topic suggests) that's exactly what I provided.

Black Mage is easier on paper , but in real fights it's very hard to play unlike summoner

From my understanding, it goes on multiple tiers.

SMN is the easiest to play at entry level. It's hard to mess up the rotation of DoTs and the skills are pretty straightforward.

BLM is harder to master, but once you get the rotation done, all that is left is to know the fights and that isn't exactly the hardest thing to do.

and finally, SMN would be (imho) the hardest to play at its fullest once everything is known and left to improvement.


Though this come only from my friends' impressions on the jobs, as I have yet to level any of the two to 60

^^ Be careful now, someone might think you're downplaying the min-max rotation and doing it all wrong lolz.

I think, even though I am still not particularly fond of the clipping issue caused by certain quivers, that I am just going to go ahead and stick with the Bard, as I know the Bard better than any of the other DPS classes and would have an easier time with the rotation / priority system of the bard than anything else at this point.

If when I decide to try something else, it will probably be either a healer (Scholar), or Machinist at this point.

Thank you all for the help deciding these things. I really did need to hear the opinions of several people about what I could come to expect with Summoner and Black Mage before I could truly make up my mind on what to play.