There are multiple reasons why raiding is unpopulair currently. Most of them (ilvl balance, difficulty) are getting fixed in the upcoming 3.2 patch.
But another reason why it's unpopulair is because of the lack of "lore rewards".
In 2.x coils we not only had gear as a reward, but also cool new cutscenes and another step forward into the story. This gave us a sense of mystery and accomplishment.
"What's going to happen in the next episode of FFXIV *insert raid here*? Stay tuned, untill the next bosskill!"
This whole reward system is now completely destroyed by the presence of Alex normal. It's handed to everyone on a silver platter atm, with zero effort required. (you can go afk and still clear it, literally.)
Now I do think a casual raid difficulty that you can do in DF 90 % of the time is great. However, what I personally would suggest is the following:
Make sure to not release both the normal and savage version of the same tier in 1 patch.
To take current alex as an example:
3.05: Release of Alex Savage Tier 1 (Gordias)
3.1: Release of Alex Normal Tier 1 (Gordias)
3.2: Release of Alex Savage Tier 2 (Midas)
3.3: Release of Alex Normal Tier 2 (Midas)
3.4: Release of Alex Savage Tier 3
3.5: Release of Alex Normal Tier 3
This, I think, will have multiple advantages:
1: Reduces burn-out (by not fighting the same bosses with different difficulties in the same patch).
2: This won't "spoil" 70% of the mechanics for Savage.
3: Gives mid-core and hard-core players that mysterious feeling back (we spent 2 weeks training on this boss and we FINALLY get to see the next cutscene + see what's next up in the next floor! Yaaay!!), instead of that feeling being destroyed by the story being handed to us on a silver platter.
4: Still gives the casual players who don't have time to dedicate multiple evenings per week to a static, a chance to see the story, just in a later patch.
Sidenote: Obviously 2 completely different raids in 2 different places with 8 different bosses, with 1 being "normal difficulty" and the other being "Savage difficulty", would be best case scenario, but this doesn't seem to be an option cause of the limited time the devs have.
-
02-04-2016, 12:22 AMPyroclasticMy suggestion for 4.0 raiding, coming from a seasoned raider.
-
02-04-2016, 03:21 AMBacent
So you want to further increase the gap between 'serious raiders' and people who are trying to get into raids/casual players? At the very least when they have normal versions first, it gives everyone, not just the special ones who clear stuff super quickly, a chance to gear up and possibly get into a new raid group.
Hell I have two classes geared up above i200, and people won't give me a damn chance to even learn stuff because I have no EXP in some stuff. I'd rather them keep it the way it is so more people at the very least have a 'chance' to try to get into something earlier on. -
02-04-2016, 03:24 AMPyroclasticYou are forgetting that the "Savage raids" will go back to second/final coil difficulty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacent
-
02-04-2016, 04:03 AMNyghtmarerobu
Gear Progression be damned right? Lets put the i190/200 gear out at the same time. If you don't want it spoiled, and want the cool lore, then don't do normal, simple as that. Why choke out the normal mode because you don't like how they released it.
-
02-04-2016, 05:11 AMMiniPrinnyAs it stands, Midas, like Gordias, will require having cleared story mode to access Savage. And while part of why I raid is for the lore, and part of why I raid is for the challenge, I really enjoy having the lore be a reward for the challenge. This isn't to say that I want what the OP is suggesting, but I would enjoy if we got raids that tried to cater to both, even if the lore reward for Savage was just fluff, like the specs and original purposes of the machinery we fought in the Gordias sector was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyghtmarerobu
-
02-04-2016, 01:19 PMPhoenicia
In Alexander Savage, the problem is two fold:
- There is nothing, lore wise, to look forward to as we already know what's going on because we saw it in Normal mode.
- The normal mode's story itself is so much cheese. No body cares about some goblins that want to conquer the world for all the cheese are belongs to them. Not only that, the things we end up fighting are just. Goblin machines.
Let's look at Coil:
Coil had the whole cataclysm (that changed the entire game's environments and world) behind it.
We had a good reason to go into the coils in the first place, with Alisaie seeking truth instead of cheesy Illuminati conspiracy to take... cheese.
We got to know about ancient Allag and its technology, reasons behind Dalamud/Coils. We fought things from monsters that took nesting to giant defense mechanisms, dragons, resurrected baddies and 2 super awesome primals in what I still consider the most epic encounters in FF history!
Whatever gear you get from normal Alexander is 10 item levels behind currency (a.k.a. welfare) gear and is also time gated. You will either do what raiders do and try to optimize by getting the cheap/fast to obtain pieces for your main to compliment what you can get with currency. Or you'll get pieces for alts. So said "gap" doesn't matter gear-wise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacent
Also, I hate to break it to you, but you having over whatever many i200 classes is irrelevant if you do not back that gear with research for optimal rotations, play-mindset and decent parses.
Speaking from personal experience here, I was uninterested in raiding for a long time due to uncertainties around me in real life. My character changed mains (and owners over my brother) from a tank to summoner (Though it did not matter at that point since I did not raid). But when I decided to rejoin the raiding scene, being so behind on item levels (ilv184), I managed to get into an A3S progressing group. Bear in mind, that being so well into the 3.07 patch, there was enough time to have a full ilv190 set from Alex Normal, and you would be closer to ilv200 with eso pieces. I got my first A1 and 2 Savage clears in that 1 go. Doing slightly sub-par but acceptable DPS. After all, I had not much practice, just knowledge of what needs be done.
Point being, it wasn't my ilvs, which were about 10 levels beneath any non-raider that kept up to date, that got me into raiding groups. It was my performance. If this applied to me, it should apply to anyone. And if a raid group "only" judges you based on your item levels, you do not want to join that group. Take it from me. :)
So please, do not shoot off a suggestion that tries to bring back a huge portion of the fun in raiding in FFXIV due to some made-up excuses about "gaps" that don't matter/exist. -
02-04-2016, 03:23 PMMatthew0320
I see where your coming from where the reward of the story seems to be 'handed-out' but coming from another raider I don't think this is a fully fleshed-out idea, although I see your points.
First of, having the release of the Alexander raids being released at the next subsequent patch is way too time consuming and costly. For example, you stated '3.05: Release of Alex Savage Tier 1 (Gordias)' and '3.1: Release of Alex Normal Tier 1 (Gordias)'. That's 3.5 months of waiting just for a player to get involved on something they care about; the story.
Players should have to pay $42 over the span of 3 months and a half trying to get engage in the story because they are going to be a ostracized by players by 'not being good enough'. Its pretty hectic right now for most players who are doing their best to clear, even harder to be part of a party that's patient and is willing to commit.
Even though I don't agree with your idea, I'd say if they consider going that route to just make it the mid patch of the time an raid is released (i.e. 3.2: Release of Alex Savage Tier 2 (Midas) THEN 3.25: Release of Alex Normal Tier 2 (Midas) ). The majority (the casual players) needs will be served in a few, short weeks instead of having to wait and hard-core raid players would understand the mechanics well enough in getting into savage which also brings another point with one of your arguments.
"This won't "spoil" 70% of the mechanics for Savage". I would call Savage mode being a spoiler for Normal/Hard; it's a pace to which players who choose to go the route of Savage mode can know what they're prepared for and plan ahead of the game. Your statement would have more merit if normal was released first. Normal/Hard mode will be a joke and there will be no point in releasing it because the mechanics will be recycled with an element taken away from the fight.
Advantage #4 (gives the casual players who don't have time to dedicate multiple evenings per week to a static, a chance to see the story, just in a later patch) comes across shallow and callous to me. Having Normal/Hard being released the same as Savage would help said casual players gear up and prepare ahead if they choose to go that direction. Game design wise the FFXIV made a wiser choice in releasing the difficulty content the same time because it makes a better door for entry for those who may have never considered this. Take it away and it will drove off casual players (market wise is a majority of players) because they're being booting 3.5 months because they're 'not good enough' while a minority is being served.
We know this because there are some players still going through the story and trying different jobs; this being the perfect opportunity to hone and refine their understanding of the instance before they just jump into it (Alex Savage) without them knowing what they're in store for which I'm sure you wouldn't want too because you'll have a influx of inexperienced players in your group.
Not a smart move business-wise and mechanically for the game itself. -
02-04-2016, 06:51 PMPhoeniciaYou almost sound very valid here, except, in the entirety of ARR (2.0 to 2.55), casuals had no problem playing the game with Coil being out of reach for 98% of the player base without paying someone to get them the clears.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew0320
Now I'm not entirely for this specific idea of staggering release of savage and story modes. But I want something more than the token I get out of an encounter when clearing it in order to eventually get the same skin of gear, but dyable... Because let's face it, that's all we get from clearing savage.
As a raider, I want more reward than a dyed set of armor and a silly looking mount that makes more noise than my family's workshop every time I press W.
What I mean is, bring me that great feeling for clearing the last encounter and woo me with a few cutscenes like they did in T5, T9 and T13. And not just a cutscene of a mechanical ball going boom and some goblin telling me he'll be back.
For example, another, more "deep" story behind savage would serve great. Instead of just some bard over-glorifying a past tale like Ultima Weapon Ex, SCoB savage and current savage. But the casual doesn't get to see that? Well, they either wait until they can, or continue doing what they've done in the past, pay someone to get the clear for them to see the cutscene.. Or much easier: Watch the cutscene on youtube.com. They shouldn't be handed over what I worked hard to get. Not right away or at the same time anyways. -
02-04-2016, 11:02 PMNephistoI'm one of those 98%, so I'm really happy with the Alex Normal. If 98% of the players who pay are casuals, I understand SE to satisfy them, and not the 2% hardcore raiders. You can skip the cutscenes in Normal mode and wait in Savage to watch it...Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
-
02-05-2016, 09:48 PMPhoeniciaThat's the thing.. Savage doesn't even have cutscenes. Also, how would you feel if I tell you this: "You can wait 3.5 months before you get to enter story mode. As a casual, you don't need the gear upgrades anyways since it doesn't matter outside of savage." That didn't sound nice, did it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nephisto
I'm not asking to "deny" you normal mode or its gear though. But you shouldn't be handed over the same thing that people spend a lot of effort and time getting. Effort vs reward is very important. And the reward of "same gear skin but dyable" is really, really, cheap. -
02-06-2016, 07:36 PMDelorean
to be honest i was kind of surprised to see the wow lfr raid difficulty model here, where before we had things like crystal labirinth and world of darkness etc.
raiding is always going to take a hit when there is no reason to do it. to lfr players, being in lfr is an end to a means - but raiding, and I mean actual raiding, is just wasting their time doing something they maybe enjoy all 15 minutes of.
I mean personally I could care less about the story. I really don't appreciate a story scene at all in a multiplayer game unless it was made like the creators wanted us to watch it.
if the point was a dartboard and your post was a dart... well let's just say it didn't hit the board. at all. in fact, it probably hit a person, their cat, and the fine china.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nephisto
All anyone is saying is more content is better content. World of Warcraft has like 5 levels of difficulty for every raid and now nobody gives a shit about raiding. If you beat alex on it's tuning intended for all players, are you even interested in engaging him on a higher difficulty level? More than likely, no. But if you have the Unearthed Chamber of Allag or whatever to do AND Alexander, you will probably TRY to check both of them out. Especially if it has a cool item in it that you want. -
02-07-2016, 12:13 PMGalgarion
I'd like to call doubt onto the assertion that "Raiding is growing unpopular." I would counter it by saying: "Raiding has become very accessible, more people are doing it than ever."
Alex Savage was a pretty brutal experience that only 58 people had managed to complete within 40 days of its release.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyroclastic
http://www.siliconera.com/wordpress/...us_L_thumb.png
It only became manageable through attrition (Casual players grinding for weeks/months to get full 200 sets + weapons). It's not as though people have been lacking for challenge.