If best way is the only...why do we see different setups ?

Legitimate question here.
Everywhere in these parts, we see how <insert_job> is weak or how people always find and use only the best path...

If that is so, why do we see so much different setups in videos ?

At Savage release, everyone jumped the bandwagons "PLD sucks", "MCH is garbage", "AST is dumb", etc...
Yet, it's not uncommon to see clear videos with approximately any job as soon as early september, when A4S world first was only 23rd of August.

If that's the case, isn't it just saying that people are still basically playing what they want and not automatically reroll towards "What is best" ?

Maybe people still think playing the game is...for fun.

By the way, in one of those A3S clear videos, one PLD had over 19k HP, so he probably had some vitality on its right side, too :p

Any class can clear any content. However there is obviously a best case party setup for every single content.

There are some who will switch classes if they think another class is better and some who don't, this goes for any game really.

I also dont think there is a person out their who isn't actually playing for fun. If someone is playing something they dont find fun anymore that to me sounds like an addiction.

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Originally Posted by Andrea

Any class can clear any content. However there is obviously a best case party setup for every single content.

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I see that, but, unless you're competing for world first, it doesn't matter that much, in the end.
Especially compared to how "fresh" it would feel to have more jobs, or more customization.

The best way isn't the only way. It's just the best way. The fact that the A4S first clear on Chinese servers was by a relatively ungeared group (together with the various things groups like Lucrezia have done at very low item levels) shows that perfection is far from necessary.

Nor is the best way in general the same thing as the best way for a specific group or individual. If someone is more comfortable on a particular job, it's possible for them to perform better with it than with a job that may, on paper, be superior.

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Originally Posted by Ibi

The best way isn't the only way. It's just the best way.

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I completely agree with this, but isn't that the argument of the whole illusion of choice, that the best way is the only way?

Try to fullequip one job and then try same with 2 others...
Most players already switched tank away from PLD, same with healers and DPS...
You will see that after a few more months because weekly caps its not as if you can switch class within one day!

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I see that, but, unless you're competing for world first, it doesn't matter that much, in the end.
Especially compared to how "fresh" it would feel to have more jobs, or more customization.

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it doesn't matter if your group is willing to wait.

it's very possible that given everything else being the same, a group can clear X content with 6 weeks of Eso gear playing the "best" roles but that same group will need 10 weeks with "sub-par" roles.

some groups where the skill level is lower even with full i200 Eso gear won't be able to clear and they needed to wait till 3.1 so that they can get i210 upgrade items and i205 weapons.

some players even at full i210 won't clear and they are going to have to wait till 3.2 and even higher iLv and echo.

the question is do the players in these groups have the patience to survive weeks of failing. some of them can, some of them can't.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I see that, but, unless you're competing for world first, it doesn't matter that much, in the end.
Especially compared to how "fresh" it would feel to have more jobs, or more customization.

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True. However, when you do the encounters a couple of weeks later (better gear and what not), it does not mean the "best" way isn't best anymore. It just means that people will find ways to make up for shortcomings a certain job (or setup) has. Fact remains that the best setup would have been better.

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Originally Posted by Ibi

The best way isn't the only way. It's just the best way. The fact that the A4S first clear on Chinese servers was by a relatively ungeared group (together with the various things groups like Lucrezia have done at very low item levels) shows that perfection is far from necessary.

Nor is the best way in general the same thing as the best way for a specific group or individual. If someone is more comfortable on a particular job, it's possible for them to perform better with it than with a job that may, on paper, be superior.

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Um, hadn't that group with the first clear on the chinese servers, previously played on Japanese servers as well, cleared A4S there, and practiced a specific strategy to enable them to clear it far more quickly than others on the Chinese Servers?

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Um, hadn't that group with the first clear on the chinese servers play on Japanese servers as well, and had cleared A$S there, and practiced a specific strategy to enable them to clear it far more quickly than others on the Chinese Servers?

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There's a lot more variables that don't make it as clear cut, either. Something like a4s can be a bump in the road for caster dps because of the mana drain. They also had more weeks of Alexander normal to gear up. And triple melee setup wouldn't be feasible in 3.2 if you're relying on lb to clutch kills.

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

Most players already switched tank away from PLD, same with healers and DPS...

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Most of the tanks who switched from PLD thinking they'd clear Savage still failed for months before succeeding...that is to say, far far after having a PLD wasn't an issue anymore.

They just did that "because the elite said so", without realizing that it's not because they had the best setup, but because they are the best players.

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Originally Posted by abzoluut

True. However, when you do the encounters a couple of weeks later (better gear and what not), it does not mean the "best" way isn't best anymore.

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I'm not saying it's not the best, I'm just saying that it doesn't matter.
In regards to customization, it's not because the elite players will find the best build for any job that the vast majority (emphasis on vast) will have no issue whatsoever playing and enjoying their character with a more peculiar build.

I'll say that, while only have cleared A1S, I've kept playing my PLD despite getting insulted and sometimes outright harassed in Duty Finder for "slowing them down" or "being suboptimal" (Before anyone says to git gud, note that these comments usually come at the start of a run, when they see a PLD tank, before they even see how I preform.) In fact, there was certain individual on my server, whose name will obviously not be said, who, until recently, kept Job locking his PF's for Thordan EX to WAR/DRK because he had such a bias against PLD.

People will still gravitate towards what everyone considers the best because of this game has effectively turned into an efficiency simulator. Even if the other "worse" jobs/strategies can clear content, people will prefer the jobs/strategies because they're faster or offer less of a chance of failure. Or simply because they read something on the internet that says "lol, PLD/AST/MCH/whatever sux" and nothing on the internet can be wrong, right?

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Originally Posted by Ironos

In fact, there was certain individual on my server, whose name will obviously not be said, who, until recently, kept Job locking his PF's for Thordan EX to WAR/DRK because he had such a bias against PLD.

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TBF, people have the choice of what they want in PF, so them setting it to exclude any class is ok, stupid, but ok.

Though I feel that a party that is excluding jobs just because they think they are bad (PLD/AST/MCH as you say) is one you shouldn't feel overly bad about not being able to get into. Not the type of people I feel I'd want to play with.

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Originally Posted by Andrea

TBF, people have the choice of what they want in PF, so them setting it to exclude any class is ok, stupid, but ok.

Though I feel that a party that is excluding jobs just because they think they are bad (PLD/AST/MCH as you say) is one you shouldn't feel overly bad about not being able to get into. Not the type of people I feel I'd want to play with.

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Oh, I'm not denying their right to deny whatever Job they want in their own PF. They were well within their right to exclude PLD or whatever else they want. I was just using that as an example as to how people blatantly exclude or avoid certain Jobs because they view them as "bad" for whatever reason.

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Originally Posted by Andrea

TBF, people have the choice of what they want in PF, so them setting it to exclude any class is ok, stupid, but ok.

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That's exactly why everything should be available via the Duty Finder right away.
It's stupid to restrict queuing because "it will be difficult to clear the content".

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

That's exactly why everything should be available via the Duty Finder right away.
It's stupid to restrict queuing because "it will be difficult to clear the content".

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Oh I agree everything should be in the DF straight away. If people want to DF for something even if others claim theres no chance to clear in DF they should have the right to do so.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I completely agree with this, but isn't that the argument of the whole illusion of choice, that the best way is the only way?

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I think "illusion of choice" gets incorrectly applied to a lot of situations where there actually is a legitimate choice. It comes to down to whether the choice is being made on objective or subjective grounds.

It's valid for something like simple gear choices and simple stats. If I'm a DPS evaluating two pieces of gear for a slot, neither one of them changes how I play the class (this part is important and I'll come back to it in a bit), and one of them will make me do more damage than the other, the choice here is clearly an illusion. I have the option to "choose" to use the piece of gear that will make me do less damage, but since my goal as a DPS is to do more damage, there's no reason to do so.

Choosing between two different classes to play, however, is not something that can be simplified to a correct or incorrect decision. FFLogs shows monk having generally higher DPS than dragoon, but if someone is personally better with dragoon's rotation or enjoys playing dragoon more or is in a group where someone else is already playing monk then the correct decision may be to play dragoon even though monk has the higher DPS potential. There's no illusion to the choice here; both options have pros and cons.

I mentioned above that it's important that a piece of gear needs to not change the way you play a class in order for the choice to be an illusion. I say that because it's perfectly possible to have gear that presents genuine choices, but it usually requires more creativity. Take bard, for example. A piece of gear with an effect like "Raging Strikes Effect +5%" is probably going to end up being either superior or inferior to the alternatives. If it's superior, you'll use it, if it's inferior, you won't. It's a more interesting stat than Determination or Skill Speed, but it's still probably an illusion.

But what if you had a piece of gear that changed how Wanderer's Paeon worked. Instead of +30% damage and moving interrupting your casts, what if it now gave +20% damage, allowed you to cast while moving, but added a 50% heavy effect? Or if you had a piece of gear with noticeably less DEX than similar gear in the tier, but it slowly accumulated up to three charges and each charge let you move without interrupting a cast once?

Now you're making a choice between higher damage and increased flexibility. If you're skill and comfort levels are high enough that you can manage your rotation perfectly in spite of the mechanics of a given fight, you're likely looking at the first option. But if you're new to a fight or there's a mechanic you have trouble with, maybe the other options would let you personally do more DPS by reducing the penalty of movement.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Um, hadn't that group with the first clear on the chinese servers, previously played on Japanese servers as well, cleared A4S there, and practiced a specific strategy to enable them to clear it far more quickly than others on the Chinese Servers?

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Yes, but I'm not sure that changes anything about what I said.

Unless no alternative route to completion exists, the best way is not the only way.

Some people put the min/maxing meta over their freedom and fun. I've lost count of how many times I've read people complaining about "my static is making me change from X class to Y class, I don't like that class but I have to learn it and play".

Personally, I would never be ok with this type of decision, and I know a lot of people agree with me. That's just their way of playing, so taking the "best combination" as a norm is quite unreasonable.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

Some people put the min/maxing meta over their freedom and fun. I've lost count of how many times I've read people complaining about "my static is making me change from X class to Y class, I don't like that class but I have to learn it and play".

Personally, I would never be ok with this type of decision, and I know a lot of people agree with me. That's just their way of playing, so taking the "best combination" as a norm is quite unreasonable.

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Problem is, once groups find themselves hitting a wall, they start looking for every advantage they can get to clear that hurdle. Sometimes you have to do something you don't necessarily like for the sake of your group, and that's just the way it is

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Originally Posted by lawlHT

Problem is, once groups find themselves hitting a wall, they start looking for every advantage they can get to clear that hurdle. Sometimes you have to do something you don't necessarily like for the sake of your group, and that's just the way it is

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In my group, we stick to the main job people want to play, except when it doesn't offer a viable setup (Sorry, 7 BRD is not a viable setup :p). The most we do is having a second role available to compensate for a missing person.
We're far...excuse me...we're faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar from being competitive raidwise, but we don't care.

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Originally Posted by lawlHT

Sometimes you have to do something you don't necessarily like for the sake of your group, and that's just the way it is

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Such as using fire spells >_>

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Everywhere in these parts, we see how <insert_job> is weak or how people always find and use only the best path...

If that is so, why do we see so much different setups in videos ?

At Savage release, everyone jumped the bandwagons "PLD sucks", "MCH is garbage", "AST is dumb", etc...
Yet, it's not uncommon to see clear videos with approximately any job as soon as early september, when A4S world first was only 23rd of August.

If that's the case, isn't it just saying that people are still basically playing what they want and not automatically reroll towards "What is best"?

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Because even though some classes are objectively better than others, XIV is balanced well enough that all other jobs are only slightly less viable than optimum set-ups.

Balance being key, which is why some people (such as myself) are hesitant about skill trees and unique class specific materia. It's a balancing nightmare and I dont' want to see XI-2 where half the jobs in the game are considered unviable by the player base because they're ridiculously outclassed be easier to gear/play jobs.

Something like Jump Recast: -5 Seconds Materia is a ~90 DPS gain for Dragoons. Ninja has Juggulate on the same initial recast as Jump so you'd think -5 seconds would be cool. But because of the potency differences, it's closer to a ~35 DPS gain.

Dislcaimer: Values are a sloppy estimate based off the memory of some math I did a few months ago.

Well AST has an explanation.

AST 3.0 was terrible, was the worst healer by far.
In 3.05 and in 3.07 AST got lots of buffs (and even now Nocturnal AST is still bad compared to their counterpart).

By 3.07 everyone had already spent their Esoteric and people weren't going to roll again AST because it would have mean losing their Esoteric Weapon.

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Originally Posted by Tilgung

It's a balancing nightmare and I dont' want to see XI-2 where half the jobs in the game are considered unviable by the player base because they're ridiculously outclassed be easier to gear/play jobs.

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FFXI was a balancing mess right from the start, because it didn't even properly enforce each role.
PLD had less HP than most of DPS jobs, and several of them could equip the best mitigation gear. In fact, PLD wasn't even a proper tank without the WAR subjob.
RDM, apart from being able to do almost everything was also the best at two things. You don't do that, it's jack-of-all trades 101.
Dev team also let emergent gameplay flourish without any control. "NIN wasn't supposed to be a tank !" Then, fix this ! Make Utsusemi like Blink. Done. NIN tank dead.

FFXIV is far more controled, especially because, now, they have an official forum to take the temperature. It's more balanced now with 13 jobs than FFXI ever was with 6.

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Originally Posted by Tilgung

Because even though some classes are objectively better than others, XIV is balanced well enough that all other jobs are only slightly less viable than optimum set-ups.

Balance being key, which is why some people (such as myself) are hesitant about skill trees and unique class specific materia. It's a balancing nightmare and I dont' want to see XI-2 where half the jobs in the game are considered unviable by the player base because they're ridiculously outclassed be easier to gear/play jobs.

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The XI developers didn't even make an attempt at balancing anything that wasn't totally egregious for the vast majority of its lifespan. Even today, /shout groups will have very limited scope in what they're willing to accept for the majority of content, because some jobs (notably any melee at the moment) have such vast disadvantages.

The XIV developers may have moved a little slowly and reluctantly on some balance stuff, but overall any standard setup has been viable for almost all the content, and even in Savage you're not truly hampering your group that badly no matter what jobs you bring.

there are classes that are numerically better
but the classes are also balanced well enough that a skilled player that is willing to put in the time is a lot better than a player that is on "the best class" but not as skilled or dedicated.

Also, the limit break requiring a variety helps force groups into doing as such

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Originally Posted by Nihility

but the classes are also balanced well enough that a skilled player that is willing to put in the time is a lot better than a player that is on "the best class" but not as skilled or dedicated.

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The same can be applied on templates for each job.

Kudos to all of you, by the way, it's the first thread I see about customization that doesn't end with nothing but insults after the first page :)

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Originally Posted by Andrea

Oh I agree everything should be in the DF straight away. If people want to DF for something even if others claim theres no chance to clear in DF they should have the right to do so.

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I agree with this, but we run into a resource limit. For some reason or another, theres a cap on the number of instances SE can have running at the same time, this has been the case since beta when they had people who couldn't complete the main story quests because everyone was on the same instances and unable to actually get in for hours at a time.

Nothing much has changed because there is still a resource limit (and probably a resource limit based on a particular fight for every fight, i.e. some servers dedicated to raid, some servers dedicated to expert dungeons, some servers dedicated to trials, pvp, etc..) If this is the case, then opening up Savage fights in DF immediately will be an issue when you now see multiple people who individually queue for it and constantly go for it every moment they are logged on, but not make any progress, because it is inherently DF.

This will then lock out groups who have reserved times among themselves to raid, meaning they either need to wait around during their raid time, or move their raid hours, or break their group.

So what you see in the long run is more people doing Savage (Alex Savage 1), but less people clearing it and advancing, causing even more people to quit.

SE clearly expects each of these fights to take time, far more time to learn than you can gain in a DF instance and so they don't put it in DF because they would just eat resources. Even if you, yourself know the fight, all you need is 1 or 2 people in the instance to not know the fight for you guys to not make any progress.

People bring up the chinese clear a lot, but those people played on other servers, developed strategies, and researched a lot to be able to do that. They also had the BEST party makeup possible for the fight and still only beat the enrage by 1 second. They definitely wouldn't have cleared with a paladin, as an example.

Best doesn't mean only, but if a class isn't included in the 'best' setup, sacrifices usually have to be made.

Why are people quoting me and literally repeating what I said?

XIV is extremely well balanced. XI never was and never will be, and a lot of that has to do with a lack of communication and stubbornness on the Dev Teams side. But if you think the dozens and dozens of unique stats found on weapon and armor had no part in it, you're kinda absolutely wrong.

Adding unique stats would be cool, but pretending it isn't going to be a huge strain on the development team is silly.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Kudos to all of you, by the way, it's the first thread I see about customization that doesn't end with nothing but insults after the first page :)

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Yeah? well screw you and your hippy moustache!

That is a mindset I see a lot and there are a lot out there that think if you don't conform to how the masses do things then you are a bad player.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

That is a mindset I see a lot and there are a lot out there that think if you don't conform to how the masses do things then you are a bad player.

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Thats pack mentality at its finest. Those people will get the middle finger from me (even have a macro ingame to do that). I will play how I want/can/enjoy, with the gear I choose. That doesnt mean I wont give it my best effort.

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Originally Posted by Tilgung

XI never was and never will be, and a lot of that has to do with a lack of communication and stubbornness on the Dev Teams side. But if you think the dozens and dozens of unique stats found on weapon and armor had no part in it, you're kinda absolutely wrong.

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XI wasn't imbalanced because balance was difficult to achieve, it was imbalanced because achieving balance wasn't one of SE's goals.

And, outside of a very small number of rare and unusual items (Ridill, relics, mythics), XI's imbalance had almost nothing to do with unique stats found on weapons and armor and almost everything to do with job and system designs.

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Originally Posted by Bashum

Yeah? well screw you and your hippy moustache!

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And that's our quota ;)

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Originally Posted by Ibi

XI wasn't imbalanced because balance was difficult to achieve, it was imbalanced because achieving balance wasn't one of SE's goals.

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And we can remember than XI dev team was the one that did 1.0 before Yoshi-P. And, boy, was it a balance mess...

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Originally Posted by Ironos

I'll say that, while only have cleared A1S, I've kept playing my PLD despite getting insulted and sometimes outright harassed in Duty Finder for "slowing them down" or "being suboptimal" (Before anyone says to git gud, note that these comments usually come at the start of a run, when they see a PLD tank, before they even see how I preform.) In fact, there was certain individual on my server, whose name will obviously not be said, who, until recently, kept Job locking his PF's for Thordan EX to WAR/DRK because he had such a bias against PLD.

People will still gravitate towards what everyone considers the best because of this game has effectively turned into an efficiency simulator. Even if the other "worse" jobs/strategies can clear content, people will prefer the jobs/strategies because they're faster or offer less of a chance of failure. Or simply because they read something on the internet that says "lol, PLD/AST/MCH/whatever sux" and nothing on the internet can be wrong, right?

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Aaaaaand this is why I'm mostly a solo player, because our community has higher expectations for content and what roles they want in. I like, though, how they lock out PLD, then later are still looking for a WAR/DRK (because they didn't clear the first few times).

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Aaaaaand this is why I'm mostly a solo player, because our community has higher expectations for content and what roles they want in. I like, though, how they lock out PLD, then later are still looking for a WAR/DRK (because they didn't clear the first few times).

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Heh yeah, and I saw someone with a Thordan "clear" party who as a paladin, restricted the second tank to another PLD or DRK. Must have been someone with no experience MTing and wanted the ideal "main tank". Because it's impossible for a warrior to MT that right?

Needless to say, his PF kept popping back up about every 10 minutes all night lol.

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Originally Posted by Bashum

Heh yeah, and I saw someone with a Thordan "clear" party who as a paladin, restricted the second tank to another PLD or DRK. Must have been someone with no experience MTing and wanted the ideal "main tank". Because it's impossible for a warrior to MT that right?

Needless to say, his PF kept popping back up about every 10 minutes all night lol.

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Shouldn't they want a WAR OT for the massive deeps though? Its what I always hear about em atleast.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

Shouldn't they want a WAR OT for the massive deeps though? Its what I always hear about em atleast.

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I think he means the PLD didnt want to MT it and instead wanted to dump that task on someone else.

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Originally Posted by Andrea

I think he means the PLD didnt want to MT it and instead wanted to dump that task on someone else.

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Reread, I see it now, thanks!