Unchained...nothing stays the same (but how do YOU use it?)

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/image...ained_Icon.pngUnchained

Not much else to it. How do you guys use it? Is it situational? Is it even needed or helpful? Etc.

Thanks!

If its a fight where you need to stay in Defiance a lot, its one more offensive CD. If not, you can use it on pull for burst enmity and then again when its off cooldown, and you're in Deliverance, swap over into Defiance with Unchained and its like a pseudo-defensive CD as you gain the benefits of Defiance with very little DPS loss (assuming you're tanking most of the fight in Deliverance).

I'm curious who/what/when/where/why you thought this skill was needless or unhelpful? o.o Its a pretty self-evidently good CD.

Unchained has two mayor uses.

1) Burst enmity generation, if you are MTing then ALWAYS pull a boss with unchained active. It will give you a significant enmity advantage over other players. Ensuring you can deliverance to your hearts content. All MT pulls from a WAR should start with Unchained -> Tomahawk -> Eye Combo -> Butchers Combo -> Switch to Deliverance if you want and DPS away. You will never loose enmity to anyone (except for another really good WAR).

2) Extra DPS when situations require you to swap to Defiance. During A2S, I only have to Defiance at one point (when I have to tank the two Dolls in Wave 7). I always make sure to pop-in Unchained at this point in order to maximize my DPS as much as possible.

Unchained is somewhat situation but it should be extremely useful in just about any encounter.

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Originally Posted by Merkava

Unchained has two mayor uses.

1) Burst enmity generation, if you are MTing then ALWAYS pull a boss with unchained active. It will give you a significant enmity advantage over other players. Ensuring you can deliverance to your hearts content. All MT pulls from a WAR should start with Unchained -> Tomahawk -> Eye Combo -> Butchers Combo -> Switch to Deliverance if you want and DPS away. You will never loose enmity to anyone (except for another really good WAR).

2) Extra DPS when situations require you to swap to Defiance. During A2S, I only have to Defiance at one point (when I have to tank the two Dolls in Wave 7). I always make sure to pop-in Unchained at this point in order to maximize my DPS as much as possible.

Unchained is somewhat situation but it should be extremely useful in just about any encounter.

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I just want to point out that even on a single target it's better to pull with overpower than it is with tomahawk.

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Originally Posted by Jamillion

I just want to point out that even on a single target it's better to pull with overpower than it is with tomahawk.

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Overpower's range is barely half of Tomahawk. Its technically impossible to pull with since you will always facepull first like a scrub.

I'd actually strongly recommend against this in fact, as in a controlled fight your DPS/healers will go caveman as soon as they see you hit a Tomahawk, and generally be safe, if they try and do the same while you mosey into Overpower range you're losing seconds of DPS uptime and can potentially end up with the boss yo-yoing into a suboptimal position.

Not a habit I'd recommend getting into.

Running up to the boss and pulling in general is pretty sloppy and suboptimal, actually. All of the de facto ranged tank pulling abilities (Shield Lob, Tomahawk, Unmend) have a 15y range which means you can get within range to use these abilities on any boss without actually pulling them. Doing this before a pull and then hitting the button from a standing position and THEN running to the boss allows your DPS to immediately go to town without any worry of face-aggro. If you run up to the boss even if you're mashing the button, the attack will not register on the boss until after you have already facepulled, and if any of your DPS have started their openers in that period you're putting the pull at a disadvantage.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Its a pretty self-evidently good CD.

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Well not to me is the problem I guess. It requires building a full Wrath stack of course. So assuming you have that, is Unchained BB combo better than Inner Beast + standard BB combo? If enmity generation is the goal that is. I like losing the Defiance damage debuff with Unchained. But then losing all Wrath is where it seems to negate that positive to me. I honestly do not know what creates more hate, but I know neither Unchained nor Inner Beast specifically state that they increase enmity (above and beyond that which any attack will create based on damage, I assume). Defiance, Skull Sunder, and Butcher's Block do have that extra enmity generation of course. Inner Beast also has the two nice buffs but could ignore those if Unchained provides a significant enough greater amount of enmity over IB.

I used to do that but I seem to have fell back into tomahawk. However I'd like to point out that's 270 TP gone bye bye since you will have to use overpower right after.

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Originally Posted by RojGardoth

Well not to me is the problem I guess. It requires building a full Wrath stack of course. So assuming you have that, is Unchained BB combo better than Inner Beast + standard BB combo? If enmity generation is the goal that is. I like losing the Defiance damage debuff with Unchained. But then losing all Wrath is where it seems to negate that positive to me. I honestly do not know what creates more hate, but I know neither Unchained nor Inner Beast specifically state that they increase enmity (above and beyond that which any attack will create based on damage, I assume). Defiance, Skull Sunder, and Butcher's Block do have that extra enmity generation of course. Inner Beast also has the two nice buffs but could ignore those if Unchained provides a significant enough greater amount of enmity over IB.

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Unchained is about a 33% damage increase over Defiance DPS for 20s. IB is a single 300 potency attack. It should be pretty obvious that Unchained will add way more damage (and since enmity is based on damage, more enmity) than IB. Especially since the extra damage on Skull Sunder/Butcher's Block will get multiplied by their modifier.

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Originally Posted by RojGardoth

I honestly do not know what creates more hate, but I know neither Unchained nor Inner Beast specifically state that they increase enmity .

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Inner beast doesn't generate any additional enmity, while Unchained doesn't specifically - it eliminates the damage penalty - which means your enmity combos are doing more damage thus increasing enmity generation.

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Originally Posted by RojGardoth

Well not to me is the problem I guess. It requires building a full Wrath stack of course. So assuming you have that, is Unchained BB combo better than Inner Beast + standard BB combo? If enmity generation is the goal that is. I like losing the Defiance damage debuff with Unchained. But then losing all Wrath is where it seems to negate that positive to me. I honestly do not know what creates more hate, but I know neither Unchained nor Inner Beast specifically state that they increase enmity (above and beyond that which any attack will create based on damage, I assume). Defiance, Skull Sunder, and Butcher's Block do have that extra enmity generation of course. Inner Beast also has the two nice buffs but could ignore those if Unchained provides a significant enough greater amount of enmity over IB.

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This all assumes that you Infuriate on pull, which I believe all WAR mains do, at least when MTing:

BB+IB = (((150+(200*3.5)+(280*5.5))*.75)+300)*2.3 = 4812.75 potency of enmity.
BB+Unchained = (150+(200*3.5)+(280*5.5))*2.3 = 5487 potency of enmity.

WAR main correct me if I have the enmity modifiers wrong, iirc they are the same as DRK.

Unchained is better, by a lot, and over fewer GCDs.

I'm not understanding why you're worried about losing the stacks, I mean yeah, you're not spending them on an IB, but you are spending them on what is essentially a 25% damage increase (which is a lot) for 20 seconds...

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

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I've literally never had any of those problems and I've been tanking on war for over a year, sooo....

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Originally Posted by Merkava

Unchained has two mayor uses.

1) Burst enmity generation...

2) Extra DPS...

Unchained is somewhat situation but it should be extremely useful in just about any encounter.

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I've typically been using Berserk to start a boss pull, hopefully while Infuriated already but if not then right into BB combo for the enmity gen. Then I'll do the debuff combos. When next Wrath stack builds, I'll sometimes switch over to Deliverance.

I guess to find out what actually works best, I'd have to farm something with the same group for a good number of runs using different methods and see where I lose hate. In other words, I might never know :D

Thanks for the ideas though. I'll try out some of this stuff and see what sticks :)

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Originally Posted by Jamillion

I've literally never had any of those problems and I've been tanking on war for over a year, sooo....

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Doesn't change the fact that you're facepulling. I'm just saying its sloppy but if sloppy works for you then it works for you. I just wouldn't recommend it to a new tank.

Tbh pulling with overpower is infinitely better than pulling with tomahawk. It generates more threat and you are not facepulling if done correctly. It makes it easier to put up storms eye before you even use a butchers block combo which is a big dps increase for your opener. The only time using tomahawk is better is when postioning the boss oddly lIke in t10 and also a3s. Also overpower is better to pick up a single add in a fight than tomahawk or uncomboed butchers block.

I know at least one war that pulls with overpower always. Hasn't really ever been an issue, it just feels incredibly wrong. Why would you spend 130 tp for 120 pot on one enemy when you could spend 120 tp for 130 pot. Especially considering the extra enmity for a war isn't even needed.

It may be slightly better. "Infinitely better" seems like quite the stretch of imagination.

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Originally Posted by Warzik19

Tbh pulling with overpower is infinitely better than pulling with tomahawk. It generates more threat and you are not facepulling if done correctly. It makes it easier to put up storms eye before you even use a butchers block combo which is a big dps increase for your opener. The only time using tomahawk is better is when postioning the boss oddly lIke in t10 and also a3s. Also overpower is better to pick up a single add in a fight than tomahawk or uncomboed butchers block.

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Except you shouldn't be loosing enmity with Tomahawk. I can Tomahawk -> Eye Combo -> Butchers combo with ease and never loose enmity to a DPS EVER, I have done this with EXTREMELY good DRGs (they have crazy burst starters) and enmity has never been an issue. Another thing worth noting is that Tomahawk allows you to align your GCD better, when the boss gets to your face you will have Heavy Swing ready, while with Overpower you will still have it in cooldown, slightly delaying your opener.

In the end either works really, it's just that the last thing WAR needs is more enmity in their opener.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

This all assumes that you Infuriate on pull, which I believe all WAR mains do, at least when MTing

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I do not do this currently. I'd rather build a stack, then Infuriate to get a double burst. Or, better yet, have at least a partially built stack leftover from the last trash mob before a boss. I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong here too tho (see below).

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

BB+IB = (((150+(200*3.5)+(280*5.5))*.75)+300)*2.3 = 4812.75 potency of enmity.
BB+Unchained = (150+(200*3.5)+(280*5.5))*2.3 = 5487 potency of enmity.
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I'm not understanding why you're worried about losing the stacks...

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Well, because I didn't have any numbers showing which is better in a boss pull, which, btw, thanks for those. Intuition is often trumped by data :P

So, 3.5 is EM for SS? Which would make 5.5 for BB and 2.3 for anything under Defiance? I'd assume all other numbers are damage except the .75 which is Defiance debuff. Interesting stuff.

Didn't say it was impossible just said it was easier. And I did use infinitely wrong yes it is slightly better. And it has nothing to do with starting the fight better with gcds the fight starts the second you use overpower same thing with tomahawk. Your heavy swing will always be at the same time.

I'm confused here. Is it better because it does some extra enmity ?

In that case it just isn't necessary at all. The extra enmity doesn't matter one bit if you go the SE > BB opener like you should.

And the extra range of tomahawk ensures a better positioning and a smoother CD usage in my own (humble) experience over the past 2 years and half

I could see where having slightly more enmity for picking up an add would come in handy (bastard t13 adds come to mind, tho prepped SS or BB is better for aggro), along with the faster animation they updated a while ago, it probably pulls faster than a tomahawk would in that case, tho I'm just guessing based on memory atm.

If you're worried about using Infuriate on the pull, don't be! It has a pretty short cooldown and if you are MT, using Infuriate for an Unchained pull is worth more to get the enmity lead than having burst later in the opener. That later burst is better for off tanking in Deliverance actually.

Squinting at all you people advocating an Overpower pull. If you have to grab a group of mobs quick that you didn't anticipate, sure, but as a pull? Worse, on single targets? Side eyeing that really hard.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

I'm confused here. Is it better because it does some extra enmity ?

In that case it just isn't necessary at all. The extra enmity doesn't matter one bit if you go the SE > BB opener like you should.

And the extra range of tomahawk ensures a better positioning and a smoother CD usage in my own (humble) experience over the past 2 years and half

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Pretty much this, I can understand where people are coming from when they say Overpower is better but WAR doesn't need the extra emnity at all. Tomahawk offers better positioning and slightly better CD usage and if we go into details we can even mention that Tomahawk does have more potency and cost 10 TP less.... but not that it's relevant at all.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I could see where having slightly more enmity for picking up an add would come in handy (bastard t13 adds come to mind, tho prepped SS or BB is better for aggro), along with the faster animation they updated a while ago, it probably pulls faster than a tomahawk would in that case, tho I'm just guessing based on memory atm.

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There will always be situation when pulling with Overpower is better, nothing is ever set in stone. It just seems a bit... needless against a single target (boss).

Well, since the thread is officially HJ/OT and no one commented on the thread title reference...here ya go! Enjoy! Remember: spandex can never be too tight :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx86CxKYtg0

I wanted to comment on how I use it, but I'd rather keep it to myself.

Honestly it used to be really good. However with the new stance for Warrior I think its kind of a waste. Switch Stance+Use those stacks for Fel-Cleave and switch back after.

Its not nessessarily a "bad" skill, its just it can be better spent elsewhere.

You can also:

Inner Beast
Switch to Deliverance (You still have 6 seconds the protection of a tank stance!)
Use your skills and smash them with another Fel Cleave,
Switch back to Defiance.

Much better use of the skill then Unchained.

Its a good skill, but with the introduction of Deliverance its use is .. well bad.

The animation already wastes 2 seconds.. Vengeance is better.

As I don't know the exact threat amount for each ability, and just blindly listened to people when they said overpower>tomahawk on single target pulls because it's "more threat," can someone enlighten me? Both abilities list "increased enmity" as their bonus effect, and tomahawk is 10 damage potency more as the tooltips say.

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Originally Posted by Tsilyi

As I don't know the exact threat amount for each ability, and just blindly listened to people when they said overpower>tomahawk on single target pulls because it's "more threat," can someone enlighten me? Both abilities list "increased enmity" as their bonus effect, and tomahawk is 10 damage potency more as the tooltips say.

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I'm not sure how people figured out the exact threat modifier, I haven't really see anything in game one way or the other. For a long time I think the common belief was Overpower/Skull Sunder/Storm's Eye/Tomahawk being a 3x threat modifier and BB having a 5x multiplier, and approx a 2x multiplier for tank stance. Of course the devs have made a lot of adjustments, but this is "rule of thumb" I've always used. How anybody get's more specific multipliers (or even the original ones) I'm not clear on.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Honestly it used to be really good. However with the new stance for Warrior I think its kind of a waste.

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The skill itself didn't change, it's still a good skill, the problem is mainly that there isn't a huge need to be in Defiance at the moment. Hopefully with the damage adjustments and what not the new raids will force us to tank in defiance more and Unchained will creep back up as viable damage cd.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

The skill itself didn't change, it's still a good skill, the problem is mainly that there isn't a huge need to be in Defiance at the moment. Hopefully with the damage adjustments and what not the new raids will force us to tank in defiance more and Unchained will creep back up as viable damage cd.

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But you waste what could be damage for something that isn't damage. If Unchained also added 50 potency to each attack for example it WOULD be worth it. However right now your just spending your stacks for something that doesn't do damage.

You can use your attack instead, do damage and become a tank for 6 seconds, instantly switch to deliverance and do tons of damage and switch back to defiance instead.

Just doing that and not doing anything else nets you more damage.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

But you waste what could be damage for something that isn't damage. If Unchained also added 50 potency to each attack for example it WOULD be worth it. However right now your just spending your stacks for something that doesn't do damage.

You can use your attack instead, do damage and become a tank for 6 seconds, instantly switch to deliverance and do tons of damage and switch back to defiance instead.

Just doing that and not doing anything else nets you more damage.

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Using it that way gives 10 seconds of +40% damage when unchained is 20 seconds of +33% damage. Not sure that's really more effective unless you can stay in dps stance longer.

Going back to the topic of pulling with tomahawk or overpower on a single target, I've read that while tomahawk has a x3 enmity mulitplier, overpower has x5. While there are people who say that it's unnecessary need that big of a multiplier off the bat, there can be situations where you'd want that big a start.

I recently I saw a video posted by xeno where he details a new MT opener. He uses unchained just for his first move, then switches over to deliverance and stays there for the remainder of the opener. You can imagine if you're going to boldly start your MT opener in mostly deliverance, you'll want all the enmity you can get your hands on. Of course, he uses the disclaimer that a ninja will be needed, but it's still a situation where overpower is arguably the better choice.

Personally, I use tomahawk in every opener simply because it's more comfortable and I find the animation satisfying.

The effective use of Unchained differentiates a skilled Warrior from one who's still learning.

It's not all about what's going to give you max damage all the time. It's about balancing your top job as a tank with your ability to do damage.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

I'm curious who/what/when/where/why you thought this skill was needless or unhelpful? o.o Its a pretty self-evidently good CD.

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It was a much stronger and more useful CD in 2.X. In 3.X so far you can pretty much take it off your hot bar entirely, as no Warrior will ever be MTing a raid, progression or otherwise, and Defiance is largely neglected by the player base at large. It'd be better if they made Unchained useful again, cause it's basically as situational as Clemency.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

as no Warrior will ever be MTing a raid, progression or otherwise

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So? Were you in Savage on release? Because no WAR was doing 100% Deliverance uptime then. You have an Oppressor to tank in A1S, double dolls and a few other groups in A2S, you spend half of the last phase of A3S tanking, and Straf Dolls in A4S. There are plenty of times for a WAR to use Defiance, especially when undergeared and learning a fight.

If you're taking a DRK or PLD, it's better to have the WAR pull in Defiance with Unchained and then swap out to Deliverance and let the other tank take over. This allows the PLD or DRK to turn off grit or shield oath since they never have to use their enmity combos afterwards. It's a DPS increase if your concern is maximizing tank DPS and you're not taking 2 WAR.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

I'd actually strongly recommend against this in fact, as in a controlled fight your DPS/healers will go caveman as soon as they see you hit a Tomahawk

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https://media.giphy.com/media/b9wWknUGiZTI4/giphy.gif
This is what I see prepull.

In the current meta, you want to be in Deliverance as much as possible. For a lot of fights, that's basically the entire fight now. To compensate for the lack of Defiance, you need to properly use the defensive CDs that you aren't saving for an incoming tank buster. That leaves you with very few dCDs. So, while Unchained is in theory an offensive CD, I don't view it as such because that's not how it fits into this meta. It's kind of the same idea with using defensive CDs to allow you to stay in Deliverance to push DPS. Your defensive CDs essentially become offensive CDs in a way.

I think of Unchained as Thrill of Battle + Convalescence but costs 5 stacks and doesn't heal you.

From that point of view, it's 2 major defensive cooldowns rolled into one and considering that, it's pretty evident how strong a defensive CD it is.

The design of Unchained is very deliberate. It's 20 seconds for a reason. If you dance to Defiance and pop Unchained after your Heavy Swing, you have 7 GCDs until you are back at 5 stacks. With a 2.4s GCD, that's ~17s. At 5 stacks, you can then IB within your Unchained window and dance back to Deliverance for ~26 seconds of buffed eHP at minimal DPS loss. That's roughly 22% uptime. That's a huge deal when you are not trying to be a complete dick to your healers.