Can I handle thordan?

Hello all and thank you for visiting my page. I am in a static (first run is tonight) that is attempting a thordan clear, and I have been requested to run my pally. I have zero problems running pally, my only concern is my health and ilvl. My pally sits at i190 with pentamelds and 15k health, is thordan doable? Should I wait to gear up more? I have i200 weapon and shield, and accessories. Thanks in advance!

*stands in the corner quietly waiting for someone to share their paladin cd rotation*

Just from my experience, which is mainly as war OT, 15k for MT seems a little low. Honestly 15k is about my comfort level for OT, and that's where full slaying gets me atm.

I did try running (ie, failed horribly) as pld main tank, but I'd just have to learn the CD rotation. I put on a couple vit accessories to get to around 16.5k. But I don't know if thats the min or not.

Ok thanks! I've done many a thordan run as war, maybe I'll pick up a vit accessory. Thanks again!

you should start picking up vit accesories, and the keeper's hymn just in case
because if it do correct that in 3.2 VIT will be main source of tank attack power the STR gear will be useless
this is just speculation,but there's no harm in making a preparation

I don't feel comfortable with 16k HP for MT in Thordan EX, so I don't use full Slaying in there. I use pentamelds, which puts me at around 18k, and that seems to be pretty comfortable. Your defense will be slightly lower at i190 than mine is at i208 as well, so you'll take a little more damage with every hit. Heavenly Heel and the followup cleave has a lot of potential to kill you if the healers aren't on top of things. So does Holy Bladedance, even if it's the Shield Oath knight that's casting it.

I use Sheltron in my opener to catch the first cleave, and again during Dragon's Gaze to catch the one that follows that. The timing is a little fiddly, but it's nice to blunt that spike damage a bit once you get it down. I use Rampart after Dragon's Rage in the first phase so it's up for Ancient Quagga, then pop Sheltron on top of that for Heavenly Heel. Clemency to self-heal after Zephirin's AoE goes off. I use Sentinel for the Sword Oath Bladedance (you can use Hallowed Ground here, though I prefer to save this for KotR5 until I know the group is completely skipping it) and Bulwark for the Shield Oath one (if you use HG for Sword Oath, use Sentinel here instead). As the Knights cast Divine Right, I use Sheltron to catch the Heavenly Slash that follows it. If DPS is low and you end up getting 3 Bladedances, you can Rampart the last one (or Bulwark if you used HG/Sentinel, whatever you prefer).

Divine Veil at Ultimate End, Stoneskin anyone that might have weakness or that has a lower HP pool. After meteors, I use Rampart as the two knights stun the party's healer, then Sheltron to catch Heavenly Heel. I use Sentinel for the next Heel (after Kotr3 I think?) so I can save Rampart for the Quagga/Heel/Quagga combo that follows Kotr4. Rampart for the first Quagga, Sheltron + Divine Veil for the Heel, and Rampart will still be up for the second Quagga. Hallowed Ground for Kotr5, waiting until the Dragoons start diving (unless your group is killing it before this, then you mayaswell just burn it on Holy Bladedance).

Other CD's I don't really have any specific use for (Foresight, Convalescence, Bulwark aside from Bladedance) and basically just use them as needed. Be very careful using Sheltron for Heavenly Heel - don't pop it too early or an auto will knock it off.

Are you sure about your gear level? you say i190 with pentamelds, but this should give you closer to 17k health than 15k I thought? I remember being just over 18k (with party buffs) in my first excursions to Alex Savage with full pentamelds and gear from alex normal.

15k does seem rather low, so I'm wondering if everything else is 190. That said, if you do have a full set of pentameld accessories with 29 vit on each then it's a lot easier to just use a Keeper's Hymn. It's MUCH better to keep full pentamelds and be 35 Vit Spec than to be 35 Str, with 4 pentamelds and a vitality accessory. Keepers hymns are basically free.

Just spec Vit for your first foray in there and keep the full penta set, you should be okay as long as your cooldown rotations are on par.

I don't have full protean gear. I have law armor and duelist leggings? The i185 legs. I have the two pentamelded rings, and full strength accessories beyond that with attributes in strength. I'll have new armor Tuesday (saved esos)

You should totally invest some time in getting Prototype Gordian gear tbh. It's not that hard, specially if you get a big party coming with you to pass on the items!

Sounds a bit weak, honestly.

16 K is, typically, the minimum required Hp for Thordan, and Thordan requires a lot of memorization for the mechanics and when to use which buffs at which time. So, having some extra padding while you're still learning the fight is probably a good idea. Personally, I ran Thordan with 18 or 19 K health until I got comfortable with the mechanics. I started to push more Str when I got more comfortable with the timing of the mechanics, but even now I rock 17 K. Pld dps does not see high burst returns like War and Drk, so the str you sacrifice for the extra 10k isn't going to make or break anything.

It does sound like you're a bit under-geared though. What weapons are you using at the moment?

17.900 like a DRK but is my main and is well geared, have a minimum of 16,5k and you go good, thordan need you use very well your cd's but in the end is like titan.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

snip.

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For the split knights I will Sentinel + Bulwark the Sword Oath blade-dance while staying in Sword Oath to help push DPS, Rampart + Foresight + SS myself for the Shield Oath blade-dance, and if we end up getting a third I will HG that one. This is all done while keeping the Rage of Halone debuff up. The benefit to this is if you don't get a third buffed blade-dance, you can save it for phase 8 when everything is happening and have some flexibility with what you use it on there. If you are about to die during the panic that happens, you can HG and buy your healer's time to recover from the tether breaking / AoE dodging to get back to healing you. You can use it to catch both a quaga + heel to give your healers a bit of breathing room to raise some of the people who might've died.

if you can enter the instance, you can beat the instance.

15k is a bit on the low side, 16k should get your through the tank busters(Heavenly Heel/Holy Blade dance) just fine so long as you manage CDs right and/or well timed Clemency. If you do plan to tackle with 15k make sure both you and your healers(or DPS support->Virus, Dismantle, Rend Mind) are on the same page.

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Originally Posted by Immut

if you can enter the instance, you can beat the instance.

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That's not necessarily true given the way you can inflate ilvl with accessories. 180 left side with 200 accessories would be 190 average but you'd be severely lacking defense as a tank.

It kinda depends on your confidence in your healers abilities. I've been to hard enrage with 16300 health [full str, food+party buff] the lack of the clear had more to do with 3-4 DPS deaths throughout the duration of the fight. I still have trust issues with PUG healers so i wouldn't likely run so thin if I didn't have that confidence.

I re-watched a handful of PLD videos looking for other ideas on cool down rotations, what I found was not one single video with a MT that was less than 18.5k health. Shockingly some of the vids showed 21k health MTs mitigating heavenly heal with only foresight......

** You will want to verify the damage through in game testing based upon where your specific defense is at.

Phase 1:

Standard pull with modification for shelltron - Lob - FoF - CoS - SHELTRON - Spirits Within - Rage of Halone combo > Goring combo > RA combo

This type of pull will set up some nice timing on both your Sheltron and Goring dot. Generally I have Sheltron up by the cleave just before Dragon's Gaze, and my goring dot gets reapplied either right before or just after Gaze (and next during Quaga). I pop Rampart during Quaga, Foresight after quaga and Sheltron during the cast for Heavenly Heel. I generally drop about 8 to 10k health for this tank buster. My rotation is consistently (and usually for the duration of the fight) RoH combo > Goring > RA > RoH combo...... I have also had success in dropping ShO after my second RoH combo, and reapplying it during Quaga.

Phase 2:

Sacred Cross – (SwO) By this point, Cos and Spirits Within should be up for the start of the phase, use these immediately and they will be up at the start of adds. RA combo for the duration. Drop a stone skin or two and move to your add. Staying in SwO start with your Goring combo while interweaving FoF, CoS and Spirits. You can get out 1 more hit before Divine Right is cast. Push your RoH combo and you can finish it in time to begin your buffs phase. Jump into ShO and for sword use Sentinel + Sheltron, for shield use Bullwark. You can step back into SwO after this sequence completes, rinse and repeat for 2nd blade dance. If you get a third blade dance, Rampart + Sheltron + Foresight should all be back up.

Phase 3:

I like Divine Veil and Stone Skins during Ultimate end. As the majority of my group’s errors come in this final part of the fight, I haven’t found a good balance on timing to drop ShO. In Theory, you should only need your tank stance for heavenly heel’s and KoTR 5. My cool down rotation is:
Heel 1 – Rampart/Foresight/Sheltron
Heel 2 – Sentinel/Sheltron
Heel 3 (this is the Quaga > Heel > Quaga phase) Hallowed ground during Heavenly Heel cast will carry you through the next Quaga.

This frees up your other CD’s for liberal use during KoTR5, as needed. I have found less personal usefulness in using HG here as the entire raid is taking damage and therefore AoE heals are a thing. You can pop DV here, if you group is close to pushing it, otherwise you could save it for the final tether knight portion.

These are the things that have worked for me within my group. There are still things to be improved upon, and I strongly urge you mold this with what will work out best for your group.

****EDIT****
If you fat finger a CD or don't feel like you have enough to handle the Quaga Heel Quaga, or just simply want to skip a phase so that you have everything up for the final push, talk with your co-tank and set up a contingency plan for a T-11 type tank swap. They should have most of all their CD's available as this TB comes approximately 3 minutes after the charge that the OT takes at the start of phase 3. Have them next to you and provoke for heel, then you provoke it back.

Thanks again for the responses! I have since picked up my creed armor and void ark leggings so my health and ilvl shot up. I REALLY appreciate everyone's input on CDs, it has helped me tremendously. Thanks again!

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Originally Posted by Immut

if you can enter the instance, you can beat the instance.

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This... Is not true. If your entire team was running 185 armor and the only way you hit 190 is from accessories... Sorry to say, you aren't passing the dps and heal checks for this fight. Now if you mean to say with his gear he can be carried through the instance by a team that's properly geared, then sure. The bare minimum is fine.

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Originally Posted by Immut

if you can enter the instance, you can beat the instance.

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So i185 green armor and i210 Casting accessories on a tank should be fine? OK.

Healed Thordon with a DRK @ 16.5k. With Tank stance and Shadow Wall Shadow Skin they got 1 shotted by Heavenly Heel without shielding. ~17k damage with 40% mitigation.

24k pre-mitigation?

Due to mechanics it is hard to time a shield for every Heel so that is why a bit more HP is nice.

18.5k is comfortable.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Healed Thordon with a DRK @ 16.5k. With Tank stance and Shadow Wall they got 1 shotted by Heavenly Heel without shielding. ~17k damage with 40% mitigation.

24k pre-mitigation?

Due to mechanics it is hard to time a shield for every Heel so that is why a bit more HP is nice.

18.5k is comfortable.

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Shadow Wall + Grit isn't actually 40% mitigation.

I've done fine tanking with about 16.5k HP and I did fine before with less. I'm not really sure how they got 1 shotted by heel without shielding if they used shadow wall. Heel hurts but it doesn't hurt that much, as long as you get topped off for the attack after. Maybe their left side wasn't that high ilvl?

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Originally Posted by Cynric

Shadow Wall + Grit isn't actually 40% mitigation.

I've done fine tanking with about 16.5k HP and I did fine before with less. I'm not really sure how they got 1 shotted by heel without shielding if they used shadow wall. Heel hurts but it doesn't hurt that much, as long as you get topped off for the attack after. Maybe their left side wasn't that high ilvl?

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Derp - I meant to write Shadow Skin

Well...they were full i210 (other than weapon) left side and striking RHS.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Derp - I meant to write Shadow Skin

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To be fair, if the MT is only using shadow skin for heel then he's being an asshole and putting undue stress on the healer. It should be accompanied with foresight. On top of that, there should also be a slashing debuff from a war or nin. Shield isn't required to not die, sounds like your tank needed more eso gear tbh.

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Originally Posted by AlmightyDook

To be fair, if the MT is only using shadow skin for heel then he's being an asshole and putting undue stress on the healer. It should be accompanied with foresight. On top of that, there should also be a slashing debuff from a war or nin. Shield isn't required to not die, sounds like your tank needed more eso gear tbh.

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You can use just skin /rampart for the first heel as long as you're in tank stance. It does help to try to time a reprisal for heels though(though if your health is low I'd definitely go with foresight/conva as well)

Also what does the slashing debuff have to do with incoming damage?

I think you're thinking of Storms Path which is exclusive to Warrior and reduces the damage you take. A Slashing debuff increases the damage of jobs that use slashing damage on the target.

You're a pally, of course you can do it , manage CDs.

15k + HQ vit food + being in a party should raise you over a bit or almost 16k, for Thordan as a Drk I tank with 16.4k hp in full slaying, with pentamelds you should be a bit higher once you get Gordian i190. If you manage your CDs properly like Hallowed Ground on the sword oath knight and then a Sentinel and Bulwark (I don't tank it as a pld so idk what CDs other paladins use) the shield oath one. Once you know the fight like the back of your hand you can use your CDs without even thinking them.