Highdea: are MiMidgardsormr and his 7 children aliens?

This is something that's been on my mind; they would be since they came from another world and made this star (Hydaelyn) their own, being accepted by the planet's goddess, but where are they originally from?

Since the Final Fantasy series has an interested in connected worlds could they be from Ivalice or another FF world we have yet to discover?

This is pretty much something most of us agree upon, yes, Middy is most likely an alien.

Nobody knows (yet) where Midgardsomnr originate from, although I believe that world may no longer exist. Why else would Midgardsomnr bring over 7 eggs and make a covenant with Hydaelyn to live in her Planet

It's all based on this line, right?

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Originally Posted by Tiamat

In a time before time, my father did come to this star, bearing seven eggs.

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Let's look at the same thing in JP.

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Originally Posted by Tiamat

始原の時、生まれたばかりのこの星に、我が父、ミドガルズオルムが降り立った。七の卵を携えてな。
In a primordial time, my father, Midgardsormr, landed on this newborn star. And with seven eggs in hand.

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Many who read this line jump right to, "He came to this star (planet) from another star (planet and/or space)." I've been hesitant to jump that far, choosing to linger at the more conservative interpretation that he simply came into being with the corporeal world. I mean, for starters, his name means "world serpent." Now, the legends say the Keeper guarded the lake on behalf of the Gods, created by Althyk and Nymeia. Later, you find that his covenant is actually with Hydaelyn. Based on the gods that are credited with his creation, I think he simply came into being "with the earth and the water" (perhaps changing forms from something that did exist ..."before"...).

At the Agrius, German chose to interpret his dialogue as calling you a miserable worm but submitting that he cannot question Hydaelyn's choice because it was She that, "in the beginning, gave me protection and light." As far as I can tell, the nature of the corporeal world connects to aether and Calamities in some way that makes Silvertear Falls a special place that Hydaelyn couldn't directly protect, instead bringing Midgardsormr into being to act as its guardian. I'm not saying it's unlikely that he could have come from somewhere else, but we don't know anything about anywhere else; we only have the one potential foreshadow, and that's not the only way to interpret it.

I seem to be one of the few playing it safe, though, so my 2 gil on this one might not be worth much :p

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

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i recall Elidibus, Urianger and Ununkulhai refering to the planet as ''this star'' and as we ''know'' , like Moose said, about the creation of Middie, i take it as an euphemism or even a metaphor, because it technicly even landed, he was a flying wyrm, born of, nowhere.

To me it honestly seems to be just a fancy way of speech for Tiamat.

I agree, dont call Middy an alien dragon based on very vague information.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

snipity snip

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Eh, I can't get behind any theory that says he just magically poofed into air with 7 eggs out of the aether. Then he wouldn't exactly be the Father of Dragons, because he didn't, er, father them if he came into existence with them at his side. They would have been fathered by whatever it is fathered that him.

I'm also not entirely sure how you're using the Japanese text to support your point here, because I read it exactly the opposite of you. One says he "came," the other says he "landed." If anything, "Landing" on a star is far less vague than "came." "Came" might defend that he was poofed into existence from another realm, but "landing" does not imply the same thing. Usually when you land, it's because you came from the sky - or stars.

I'm leaning towards alien dragons at this point. There had been several precedents of sci-fi elements in an otherwise fantasy setting both in XIV and the franchise in general. That said, there is little evidence for this at the moment. As Moose pointed out all of this came from this one line of dialogue that might had just been a metaphor.

Of course I have a few questions now, I want to know what the german text translates into and I want to confirm how Middy knew we had the Blessing (AFAIK, he mentioned tempering. But I find it less likely than the Aliens thing [Occam's Razor] due to it begging the question why Hydealyn would form a covenant with him.)

On a side note regarding the etymology, the word "world" is rather contextual. On the one hand there is 1 planet that we know of, on the other we have several dimensions, glimpses into the past and those can be considered "worlds". And another concept from Norse Mythology, Yggdrasil, the World Tree, is usually interpreted as multiversal hub (usually of 9 worlds).

...I just put forth a theory that Midgardsomnr is from another dimension, didn't I?

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

Then he wouldn't exactly be the Father of Dragons, because he didn't, er, father them if he came into existence with them at his side.

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The dragons of FFXIV reproduce asexually (revealed by the dungeon design team when talking about Sohm Al). If Midgardsormr had eggs, there's no reason to doubt that they were anything but his. Of course, he could have made these eggs himself back on his home planet and then came here with them, right? Besides, who wants to be the one to claim that titles affirming dragon parentage are always literal?

http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/b...f_Dragons1.gif

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

I'm also not entirely sure how you're using the Japanese text to support your point here, because I read it exactly the opposite of you. One says he "came," the other says he "landed."

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Ironically, "landed" was my way of smoothing out a translation. Midgardsormr got down (降 り立った) on the star. (Maybe that's how he got the eggs, har har har.) I don't really know how that verb works out in English. As far as I can tell works for everything from stepping off a curb to landing in a plane. One example I found referred to a taxi getting down (descending) to a station. "Landed" was Google's favorite - maybe someone lurking around here knows better? I really can't say if it specifically implies something more meaningful than "he arrived in this world".

Still, they all say he arrived at the start of the world, so if he didn't come into being at that time, he had to have come from another dimension or the previous Genesis, right? Where the Ascians claim to have came from? Connected to whatever the hell is up with the moon? (Not to drudge up my old darksteelfoil hat observation that the Ascian robes toootally have tribal dragon heads on the front.)

Oh Goodness, Middy and Hydaelyn making eggs together is. . .
Well, actually, I wouldn't be entirely surprised at something like that. In fact, I quite like it.

I could see him coming from another dimension/alternate universe/whatever SE wants to do as well. It might be interesting, certainly. But, in a sense, he'd still be an alien, just not an extra-terrestrial alien.

Please don't let the Ascians have anything to do with Dragons, please, I beg you. I'm sick of dragons already.
Oh God, what if Zodiark is somehow analogous to Shinryu, which in more recent FFs (XI and Dissidia) has been something of an arbiter of destruction, wanting everything to return to nothing?

What are you doing to me, stop.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

But, in a sense, he'd still be an alien, just not an extra-terrestrial alien.

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In that sense, I then agree that "he's an alien" is a possibility. Ish. As a dragon, Midgardsormr is a corporeal being, and his soul manifested as living aether. Were corporeal things even things when Light and Dark were one? What would he have been in such a world? This is all a pretty big house of cards for something we have literally no information for; I'm going to refrain from taking my assumptions farther than "he came into being with earth and water" until we get any hint as to what he came into being from if it wasn't the alleged second Genesis.

Hells, that's the first thing we were ever told about Midgardsormr.

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Originally Posted by Erik

Now, when water came into being, so too did the great dragon Midgardsormr. Brother Time and Sister Fate, fearing the Falls might fall into the hands of evil, ordered Midgardsormr their protector and warden.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

Please don't let the Ascians have anything to do with Dragons, please, I beg you.

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http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/...20110426055234
UNRELATED IMAGE:
Elidibus uses the attack "Midgardsormr" in Final Fantasy Tactics.

I'm kidding, even the attack is just a reskin of Salamander. In all seriousness, it's probably all a coincidence. (Probably.)

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

Please don't let the Ascians have anything to do with Dragons, please, I beg you. I'm sick of dragons already.

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I think that ship has sailed, Either with them manipulating events to set up the Calamity (Bahamut razing Eorzea) or with them teaching the Allags how to capture him (and having the Meracydian Horde summon him in the first place)

Lets not forget that Lahabrea was absorbed in Nidhogg's eye

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

I think that ship has sailed, Either with them manipulating events to set up the Calamity (Bahamut razing Eorzea) or with them teaching the Allags how to capture him (and having the Meracydian Horde summon him in the first place)

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I was more referring to me not wanting their patron deity to be draconic, not them having no history with dragons at all.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

The dragons of FFXIV reproduce asexually (revealed by the dungeon design team when talking about Sohm Al).

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Can I ask, where is the citation for this statement? I can't find it anywhere online, so is there an interview or translation in which it's specifically mentioned? I'm guessing it was a forum post or Live Letter.

About Midgardsormr, it's worth noting that there are no parthenogenetic males in nature, since it's reliant entirely on the ability to produce eggs. If they produce eggs, they're female. If only we knew the background lore and didn't have to guess. For once...

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Originally Posted by Applesnap

Can I ask, where is the citation for this statement?

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It's from a Dengeki interview with the dungeon design team from when they were running Heavensward PR. I made translations of such interviews, but never really decided on the best way to re-publish them and then I got swept up into a bigger project, lol. I'm sure I'll get all the info into relevant things eventually, depending on what people are most interested in me helping to puzzle out (right now, it's the bestiary). Here's what you're looking for, though:

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We know that Tioman is Nidhogg's consort, but what is she other than a dungeon boss? What kind of background information exists for her?

We should start with the fact that dragons don't have a traditional concept of gender. They can reproduce alone, aesexually. After a dragon is born, and over the course of a very long life, their form changes drastically. For creatures such as these, a "mate" doesn't mean a "partner for reproduction" like it does for other organisms. It's more of a deep and spiritual bond. Even in the bond between the dragon Hraesvelgr and the human Shiva, the spiritual connection is what was emphasized. In the same vein, even though Tioman is presented as a "female dragon" that is Nidhogg's "consort," this means only that she is the most important being in his life, spiritually. It should be noted, however, that even this is still slightly different from a human concept such as "marriage". These terms will probably be explored in the game, as well, once relations between man and dragon improve.

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It's still not altogether clear if that means female-only asexual reproduction, but given the direct emphasis on how dragons don't really fit established gender concepts in general, it doesn't sound like it. Dragons have very deep roots in aether and magick. For instance, an Ishgardian can't just slay a dragon and drink it's blood and be turned - it has to be magicked blood spilled by the dragons for that purpose. It wouldn't surprise me if something similar was involved even in the creation of eggs ... but we just don't know.