I Want to Know About Eorzean Economics

In what is quite possibly the most riveting discussion topic I could have ever conceived, I am taking to the forums to ask about Eorzean economics.

I'm trying to come up with a character for roleplay purposes who is a bit of a tycoon - a merchant of sorts who is very keen on investments, and who knows how to turn stock into profit (taking a page from Kraft Lawrence of Spice & Wolf). But in doing so, I realized that I know almost nothing about economics in Eorzea, which puts a big hole in my ability to play this character.

So, Lore Hounds, what do we know? How do the city states' economies function and grow? Do any of them have any policies in place for specific commodities that we know of? What are their chief exports and imports, and do we have any info on GDP? How do these organizations make the money they need to support their operations?

Uld'ah is effectively Eorzea's centre of trade and business, thus it's the most wealthy of the citystates (this fact is even mentioned on the Lodestone), with it's economy based around merchant transportation and mining. Even it's government reflects this - although officially and legally a sultanate, it is in fact a corrupt plutocracy/oligarchy, ruled by the Syndicate, a group of the six richest merchants and businesspeople in the citystate, with the Sultana reduced to little more than a figurehead, a compliant rubber stamp on policy, with the Syndicate holding the real power behind the throne.

An important point needs to be mentioned though is that Eorzea is still in a very early Industrial era state - although there is some mechanization of labour occurring (fueled by cereleum engines, cereleum being a liquefied form of aether), mostly Eorzea is still very much a quasi agrarian society with manual labour still the norm.

Naturally there is still some economic advancement in Eorzea however, a unified currency (the gil) between the citystates is one obvious aspect, another is there appears to be some kind of organized stock market in Ul'dah (shown during one of the postmoogle quests where Wymond has the player speculate on the cereleum market as part of the quest), so capitalism is very much alive and well in Eorzea. It's just not quite at a consumer-level economy yet, due to the aforementioned lack of mechanization. But that is changing! :D

There is also trade with other countries/cities/nations/whatever-it-is outside of Eorzea, mainly through the Limsan port. Radz-at-Han comes to mind, for example.
Additionally, "legal" piracy (stealing from Garlean ships) is a nice source of income for the Limsan pirates, and since the stuff is getting sold, there have to be people who trade with these goods.
But like Enkidoh said, most of the general population live as farmers, fishers and hunters.

I also remember that a big reason why Ul'dah strives so well is because of the cheap labour force provided by all the refugees from the catastrophe 5 years ago.
I don't know if arts and crafts are allowed outside of the guilds we know, since all quests that deal with goods created by them (ships, jewelry, haute couture, etc.) always sends you to the respective guild, so there MIGHT be laws in place that forbid the creation of said goods without the supervision of the guild?

We do see a few forbidden goods throughout the course of the story, which of course does not stop people from shipping and selling them anyway. I don't remember the name, but I think some druglike weed is especially harsh to be prosecuted since both Ul'dah and Limsa talk about it in various quests. Trying to find the name right now, I'll add it later.

As for how organisations make their money: donations, mainly. the Crystal Braves for example were mainly financed by the Leveilleur family and Teledji Adeledji (which was it's bane, at some point).
Minfilia's organisation got financial help from the city states, too.
There also IS a tax system in place in each city state, so I imagine that's where the money comes from for organisations like the Barrakudas and other public safety organisations.

Gridania is still a bit late to the whole deal, which makes sense with the whole nature theme going on, but they also have various trading agreements with Ul'dah in place, sell chocobos to the Gold Saucer and agricultural products to, well, pretty much anywhere, but the different mentality of the Gridanian people is often a great hindrance to business as stated by the Lalafell merchant from Ul'dah in the Gridanian market area.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

There is also trade with other countries/cities/nations/whatever-it-is outside of Eorzea, mainly through the Limsan port. Radz-at-Han comes to mind, for example.

I also remember that a big reason why Ul'dah strives so well is because of the cheap labour force provided by all the refugees from the catastrophe 5 years ago.
I don't know if arts and crafts are allowed outside of the guilds we know, since all quests that deal with goods created by them (ships, jewelry, haute couture, etc.) always sends you to the respective guild, so there MIGHT be laws in place that forbid the creation of said goods without the supervision of the guild?

We do see a few forbidden goods throughout the course of the story, which of course does not stop people from shipping and selling them anyway. I don't remember the name, but I think some druglike weed is especially harsh to be prosecuted since both Ul'dah and Limsa talk about it in various quests.

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If I recall, Garlemald's invasion of Eorzea also essentially placed the realm under economic sanction from Othard, although you still see some goods flowing through the cracks. Eorzea's primary method of trade at the moment is either internally, or with non-Garlean aligned nation-states. Thanalan is also a pretty resource-rich region, so Ul'dah's wealth isn't solely derived from trade, although one could argue that trade is the major source of income. That being said, if you are a merchant with any degree of success, ideally you would have some association with the Syndicate of Ul'dah, of which members have essentially monopolized much of that trade, particularly Lolorito and his firm.

Otherwise, most competitors don't last long, either business-wise or being among the living, as the Ul'dah starting MSQ has shown. If your going to be in opposition to the Syndicate, while being 'successful,' it may be difficult, although possible if you have formal backing (and incorruptible bodyguards) from a city-state.

If the guilds act anything like guilds in the real world, they would be pretty exclusive and hostile to any form of non-guild competition. I think the only reason we get in is because of our PC's (plot device) innate ability to make people agree with us. Our products are also pretty restricted to the adventurer's market, and none of us are able to synthesize on a sufficient enough scale to prove dangerous to the guilds. In the LTW Heavenward quest chain, you have someone else help mass manufacture products, but apparently you are incapable of doing it yourself (which is expected, considering the actual game world is far larger than the one we play in.)

The drug is somnus, I think.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

... but the different mentality of the Gridanian people is often a great hindrance to business as stated by the Lalafell merchant from Ul'dah in the Gridanian market area.

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There is a lot more than the "quality, trustworthiness, and utilitarian" mindset of Gridania versus the "price wars and monopoly building" mindset of Ul'dah. Like, the how Gridania's environmentalism would be perceived in the "profit trumps all" nature of an Ul'dahn.

One of the first things to remember about role-playing pre-modern "economics" is that the concept itself is mostly likely alien to the people of that particular world.

In real-world history, Adam Smith didn't publish The Wealth of Nations until 1776. It wasn't until well into the 19th century that European powers began to think in terms of total national production (even then, it was often very rudimentary; the typical concerns would be which country is out-producing the rest in terms of steel or battleships, for example). And, as recently as the Second World War in the 1940s, more than half the world lived in rural communities based on mostly agrarian production. Most towns and villages were largely self-sufficient, and mostly traded to get things they couldn't produce on their own.

Which is to say, the concept of an "economy" is very modern. In an Eorzean context, it's probably only the Garleans — or perhaps the Allagans, the only civilisation we know of that came close to world domination — who would think in terms of "gross national production".

So how did pre-modern countries think about GNP or GDP? Well, they thought about it mostly in terms of the sovereign treasury. Are the country's coffers empty or full? If it's empty, where will the funds come from? Through taxes or, more usually, through expensive loans, or the sale of the sovereign's personal assets.

As others in this thread have pointed out, Eorzea currently appears to be in a pre-modern era. There is some trade, and some form of proto-industrialisation ("proto" in the sense that the mass-production lines invented by Earth's Henry T. Ford probably do not yet exist). Manufacturing, where it does occur, is carried out mostly on the scale of cottage industry (ie, lots of craftsmen — such as those in Eorzea's trade guilds — working together to meet large orders).

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None of this is meant to suggest, however, that pre-modern merchants don't dream about making lucrative investments. Trade as a means to wealth is as old as human history. Arab merchants sailed the sea routes to India and China to trade. Other merchants braved the dangers of the long and arduous Silk Road to ferry exotic (and highly profitable) goods to and from Europe and China.

A trader like Kraft Lawrence (I loved the anime back in the day, although I'm not as fond of Horo as many people are) would probably think in same way as merchant-adventurers like Marco Polo: Which are the most exotic and lucrative goods, and where are they the most sought after? He'd go to where those goods come from, and depending on how much he can carry, he'd buy as much as he can, then take the goods to another place where they're rare, and sell them for as much as he could.

So, what do the city-states of Eorzea most likely need, and what do they have in exchange?

Limsa Lominsa
• It's rebuilding its navy, and it's in desperate need of more timber; the Lominsans are increasingly turning to Gridania to supply the wood of high-enough quality for shipbuilding. The Gridanians, in exchange, seek the high-quality weapons that Lominsan craftsmen are known to produce.

• Limsa Lominsa has plenty of pirates and fishermen; but as of now, I'm yet to come across any mention of it having a merchant fleet; most of its maritime "trade" are carried out, in effect, by privateers raiding Garlean ships.

• But merchant ships do pass through Limsa, which translates to custom duties and taxes for the Lominsan treasury (in terms of geography, I'm not sure why maritime merchants who intend to trade in mainland Eorzea don't go directly to Vesper Bay in Thanalan; the implication seems to be that there are other trading destinations across the Indigo Deep and Rhotano Sea, making Limsa the last major transit stop for them).

• Domestically, Limsa Lominsa is self-sufficient in food; the people produce their own vegetables, mutton (sheep, lots of them, which makes me wonder why Limsa Lominsa isn't exporting its wool) and fish.

Ul'dah
• As mentioned, it's the centre of trade and commerce in Eorzea. There's Lolorito's East Aldernard Trading Company, which holds a monopoly over the city-state's textiles and jewellery guilds (Ul'dah's key exports). My best guess — given the company's name — would be that Lolorito exports most of his products to the Near East. What he gets in return from Radz-at-Han is anyone's guess, as we don't really know much about that city, apart from it being home to highly advanced forms of alchemy.

• Ul'dah used to be the centre of a thriving trade in crystals, but that collapsed some 15 to 20 years ago with the start of beast-tribe hostilities. But the Ashcrown Consortium still exists, and its owners are trying to repair relations with the beast tribes, possibly in hopes of reviving trade with them.

• What's often forgotten by many players, is that Ul'dah is also the entertainment capital of Eorzea. The city-state has a thriving colosseum within its walls, and another up-and-coming one rising from the ashes of Halatali. What do these entertainment centres need? Powerful men and women eager to earn a fortune through blood sport, and ravenous monsters for them to fight. A shrewd merchant who knows where and how to safely procure these commodities would make a handsome fortune, I reckon.

• For all its material wealth, Ul'dah is sorely lacking in one key commodity: food. Curiously, the city-state doesn't appear short on water, and it's the only urban centre in Eorzea with an extensive sewer system. But it still needs food, and a lot of it, especially given its growing immigrant population. Ul'dah does have agriculture of its own, but given its desert climate, it's obviously not doing well.

• And, yes, there's the drug trade. It's implied to exist, and it's apparently quite lucrative. There's the somnus weed that desperate refugees are cultivating outside Ul'dah's walls. And then, there's pluto. I don't know if they are the same, but both drugs are clearly contraband. That's another way for an enterprising merchant of questionable ethics to make his money.

Gridania
• Situated as it is within a bountiful forest, Gridania's most likely exports are food and timber (produced most likely by the botanist and carpentry guilds, respectively).

• Unlike the other two city-states, however, Gridania functions more like a very large agrarian commune, and it's largely self-sufficient. Gridanians are, for example, known to have a strong dislike of foreigners, and I imagine this extends to their attitudes towards foreign trade. Cracking this Gridanian nut would therefore be tougher than for the other cities.

• As I mentioned above, though, about the only thing that Gridanians sorely lack are high-grade weapons, and there are merchants already trying to capitalise on this by establishing a weapons trade with Limsa Lominsa. As for why Gridanians would need more weapons, it's useful to remember that they remain very much at the frontlines of the on-again-off-again war with Garlemald. So, no matter how pacifist they may be, the Gridanians know they have to prepare for war.

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

• For all its material wealth, Ul'dah is sorely lacking in one key commodity: food. Curiously, the city-state doesn't appear short on water, and it's the only urban centre in Eorzea with an extensive sewer system. But it still needs food, and a lot of it, especially given its growing immigrant population. Ul'dah does have agriculture of its own, but given its desert climate, it's obviously not doing well.

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In case some prove is needed additionally to the obvious climate, there are NPCs in Central Thanalan who talk about how hard it is to grow anything there, and if you go to Southern Thanalan, you get to people who say NOTHING grows there but cactuars and the like (which makes sense, seeing as you are approaching the pure desert at this point).

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

• As I mentioned above, though, about the only thing that Gridanians sorely lack are high-grade weapons, and there are merchants already trying to capitalise on this by establishing a weapons trade with Limsa Lominsa. As for why Gridanians would need more weapons, it's useful to remember that they remain very much at the frontlines of the on-again-off-again war with Garlemald. So, no matter how pacifist they may be, the Gridanians know they have to prepare for war.

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Not to mention the Ixal problem, monsters all around and lately the group of Sylphs that have gone mad as well. Check FATEs and just general guard NPCs all around, they fight with all these groups, so not much peace in that forest.

Its also worth adding on Gridania, that apart from the quality woods and agricultural goods, it is known for having the best leatherworkers in Eorzea (though ironically the method they use to strengthen leather armor to make it resistant to damage was actually the work of a Ishgardian Leatherworker, who sadly due to Ishgardian tradition never managed to build a market in Ishgard which has historically obsessed over metal armors).

Speaking of which, do we know anything about Ishgard's economics?

Sure! I was going to add an entry for Ishgard, in any case. :)

I'm not as familiar with the northern city-state, though, having not explored the Coerthas region till 2.xx. Players who remember what Coerthas was like before the Calamity would likely know more.

Ishgard
• Ishgard — and its Coerthan hinterland — is by far the most feudal of all the Eorzean states. And feudal socio-political systems are typically agrarian: there'd be a land-owning aristocracy, and a much larger class of serfs who'd work the farms. Such societies tend to be largely self-sufficient. [Side-note: House Durendaire, being the most militarily successful of the high noblity, are likely to own the most land; I believe that would make them the richest rent-income earners in Ishgard.]

• The chief Ishgardian export — pre- and post-Calamity — seems to be chocobos which, we now know, are mostly caught in the Dravanian Forelands, and trained at the Holy Stables in Ishgard. House Fortemps, I believe, are the leading breeders of war chocobos.

• I don't know what Ishgard's main pre-Calamity agricultural produce was but, post-Calamity, it's fair to surmise that agriculture has almost completely collapsed in Coerthas. Only the hardiest of vegetables are able to survive in the ever-winter environment, and they seem to be mostly cabbages (as seen at the Observatorium in Central Coerthas).

• Knights and peasants alike are living in near-famine conditions. They're subsisting on mutton (karakuls) and fish (from beneath frozen lakes, and sky-fishing). If desperate, they'd even eat mudpuppies! The situation was worsened, until recently, by Ishgard's isolationist policy. There was apparently some foreign trade, as staff at the Forgotten Knight do mention that they served the occasional travelling merchant. But it seems to me that it wasn't enough to prevent many people from freezing or starving to death for the simple lack of (imported) food and heating fuel.

• I wondered earlier why Lominsans didn't think of exporting their wool. It now occurs to me that the most likely market for the wool was Ishgard, but 1) the Ishgardians had plenty of wool of their own; 2) they weren't letting in a lot of traders, at least not until recently.

• The recent rise in airship exploration will be a massive game-changer for the Ishgardian economy. Explorers commissioned by House Haillenarte are discovering new sky islands rich with resources. Managed properly, Ishgardian agriculture may become self-sustaining once again. Enterprising merchants may want to think about getting airships to cash in on the new potential trade routes.

• House Haillenarte also own the Skysteel Manufactory, the only noteworthy industrial institution in the city-state. The manufactory produces most of the anti-dragon artillery used in Ishgard, and most other city-states would have little use of such weapons. But, crucially, the artillery — particularly the harpoon-like dragon-killers — require ceruleam, the rare crystal-based aether fuel produced only in Northern Thanalan. [Side-note: It occurs to me that Lolorito was possibly exporting ceruleam to Garlemald, and stopped the trade only after it became apparent that the Garleans intended to invade Eorzea.]

• Ishgardians, especially those who belong to House Dzemael, are likely to be the best stonemasons in all of Eorzea. Their mighty vigils, and Ishgard itself, are testament to their skill with masonry. And what do masons need? Quality stone! Again, that's perhaps a market that Ul'dah would love to serve.

You also have to remember that most of the social upheaval seen in Ishgard and Coerthas at the moment is actually due to recent occurrences - prior to the Calamity Coerthas for instance was not an icebound wasteland, it was actually a temperate (though slightly cool) highland area, which supported extensive farming and agriculture (so much so, a never implemented Disciple of the Land based on farming cattle, called 'Shepherd', was meant to have it's Guildhall in Falcon's Nest!). The aetheric damage wrought by the Calamity however, locked the entire region in an endless winter, decimating whole towns and villages overnight. Thus this had flow-on effects in Ishgard, suddenly food was in short supply, and worse, people fled the outlying areas for the city proper, which only added to the misery.

As for chocobos, they indeed do seem to be the Holy See's main export - chocobos are naturally native to the Coerthas and Dravnian regions, and the citystate had a long tradition of chocobo breeding. So much so, they virtually gained the monopoly on it, to the point they could cut off supplies of birds to the other city states on a whim, which is actually what happened a few years prior to the Calamity - a virulent disease called 'chocobo blight' spread like wildfire through Eorzea around 1571/1572 6AE, decimating the chocobo population in Eorzea, which was not helped by Ishgard's insistence on only allowing gelded male birds to be available to the rest of the realm (and thus prevent another citystate threatening their monopoly on breeding).

Accordingly Ishgard quarantined their chocobos and refused to send any healthy birds to the other city states, until the blight diminished enough that the supply was reinstated, with restrictions (this is the lore reason why in 1.0 chocobos were not actually available to be ridden from the start but were added in a patch, and why you can only get a chocobo by joining a Grand Company, it's a restriction imposed by Ishgard).

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Accordingly Ishgard quarantined their chocobos and refused to send any healthy birds to the other city states, until the blight diminished enough that the supply was reinstated, with restrictions (this is the lore reason why in 1.0 chocobos were not actually available to be ridden from the start but were added in a patch, and why you can only get a chocobo by joining a Grand Company, it's a restriction imposed by Ishgard).

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Then how did Godbert ever get his hands on enough chocobos for the races? Up to Thordian's demise, Ishgard is not the kind of people that would put recreational activities (or anything else) over their dogma.

I believe due to what happened in Coerthas Ishgard was forced to send chocobos to gridanian stables for breeding since they were hard pressed to care for all the chocobos in Ishgardian stables with reduced resources. This wouldn't be whole surprising since Ishgard seems to be a little bit more open to Gridania than most of the rest of Eorzea. Likewise the Botanist Guild was responsible for helping to recultivate the flora of Central Coerthas and Gridanian trained botanists actually work for the Ishgardian houses.

As for Agriculture, I don't think the Sky Islands offer a great alternative as far as food production goes. This is a little bit spoilery for the Botany 50+ story but due to the high concentrations of Aetheric Wind and Water in the soil compared to Aetheric Earth (the property that give the Islands their floating quality) it is actually quite challenging to grow crops there as many traditional crop types struggle under the soil conditions and the with the exposed Altitude.

Pre-calamity Isghard also seems to have traded in timber (this seems to have been Hemlock Village's economic base according to this levequest). It may have even been the chief source of it for Eorzea, given Gridania's semi-religious taboos against excessive logging.

They're also the sole source of the famed Isghardian Steel, though like everything else they produce almost all of it seems to be consumed by the war effort with very little left for export.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Then how did Godbert ever get his hands on enough chocobos for the races? Up to Thordian's demise, Ishgard is not the kind of people that would put recreational activities (or anything else) over their dogma.

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Additionally, Chocobo racing was as popular sport for Ul'dahn nobles. My best guess is that Ul'dah had gotten breeding Chocobo (not too hard to believe given the Syndicate's influence) and eventually bred them as racing chocobos. Even then, it was only for nobility so it was off limits to most. That and I imagine a racing Chocobo is not desired for more manual labor/ combat.

On the subject of Ishgard, wasn't there a "herder" guild icon in 1.0, given how pre-calamity Coerthas was pretty good farmland, I imagine they exported livestock.

Of all the City-states, it also seem as if Gridania and Ishgard has the best relationship politically and/or economically.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Up to Thordian's demise, Ishgard is not the kind of people that would put recreational activities (or anything else) over their dogma.

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Ishgard actually has a whole mini-colloseum for chocobo fights and races (belonging to house Dzemael), and it's been around for a long time, since one adult NPC tells you a story about how she loved it when her father took her to some legendary fight when she was a little child.
A pair of other NPCs talk about how they shouldn't bet on the fights anymore because it can ruin entire existences and one even tries to make a bet with you that he is not addicted to betting on racing chocobos at all :rolleyes:

So Ishgard does seem to value recreational activities just as much as any other city state ;)
And the racing chocobos obviously already existed, so no new lines had to be bred or anything. I believe Belhi's suggestion on that makes the most sense; that the catastrophe and constant winter kind of forced Ishgard to take up outward trade again. Gridania is the most obvious choice because of close proximity and for having the things Ishgard was most lacking at the time (food and firewood). I imagine Gridania wanted some of those female chocobos in return...^^

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Originally Posted by myahele

My best guess is that Ul'dah had gotten breeding Chocobo (not too hard to believe given the Syndicate's influence) and eventually bred them as racing chocobos.

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Ul'dah does not have breeding chocobos, Gridania has them. If you go to get a racing chocobo for the Gold Saucer, you get send to Gridania to get one. All you get from the Gold Saucer is the permit for one (male or female depending on your preference) to be put into their stables.