Using Limit Break (lb) on pulls

Greeting, earlier I was in everyone's "favourite" dungeon; the Aurum Vale (AV). Our party composition is Lv60 Ninja, WHM, Machinists (myself) and a Lv60 warrior (in full sky pirate fending glamour) who announces he is tanking AV first time.

1st boss: Mid fight Lv 60 Ninja had more than one minute to decide whether to use lb; nope.

2nd boss: Badass cyclop fight started with full lb carried over from 1st boss; no lb executed from Lv60 Ninja for reasons unknown. (i am guessing he tunnel vision because 360 club swing hurts? No lb is fine, staying alive counts more in the long run.)

First pull after 2nd boss: Sky pirate Warrior Lv60 pulled multiple mobs and getting hit left right by 6-7 hostiles. I thought to myself: lb is sitting there earning 0% interest return because i dared to hope the Ninja will bother sneezing at the lb button. Let's do it then! Machinist lb on 6 or more trash gotta be worth more than using it on a solo boss right? (Forum mathematicians please help educate/verify/correct on this statement's validity)

Wham! Mch lb shaved away 6+ hostiles' hp by roughly 35% each with a push of the button and proper aoe lb positioning. Hooray! The lb bar can finally start charging up and we can actually use more than one lb in this run!

With 65% more hp to go on the same mobs. Lv60 War used the dreaded "..." reply followed by an unflattering term to describe your worst enemy. He began interrogating me with the judgmental eye of a witch hunter on how i wasted a lb. (Funny he never commented on how ninja never bothered with lb for the past 2 bosses; favouritism much? Or was it because my Menacing Moggle Mog Gun glamour just happen to capture his unwanted attention?)

He could not accept that i uses lb during big pulls and proceeded to make a mountain out of a molehill over my use of lb. I got vote kicked out when we reached the last boss entrance and i did not get my leveling roulette bonus.

Question to community:

Is using lb on trash pulls no longer popular (or "correct")? I remembered the 2.0 Zeta grind and lb on mass pull is all the rage. Is it no longer so? Every now and then, someone will question my use of aoe lb on mobs; even after the fact that 1) melee dps don't use it on boss or 2) we only have ranged dps so only aoe lb.

Why are lb being left unused like some precious commodity and if used outside of boss fight you are cast in a poor light by certain individuals?

Two camps, each with their merits.

Yes, use it, because for the most part bosses are easy and it's better to just burn down the aoe packs.

No, use it only for bosses, and using it right before the last boss just means you won't get a rank 2 limit break to make the boss an insta kill from 15%.

Could've done without the entire narrative, as you clearly felt the need to precede your actions with backstory as they are perceived to be incorrect by the majority of the player base. The only reason you'd need an excuse is if you thought you did something wrong. Though, I suppose calling it an excuse as opposed to reasoning would be more appropriate, in this instance it isn't. Ultimately think of it like this: did you save more time using the Limit Break as a ranged DPS on a bunch of trash mobs, or would you have saved more time on the last boss using a melee LB2. Correct answer is probably the latter. But it's Aurum Vale, so who cares.

Hi, Kabooa. Thank you for your reply.

Using lb right before last boss and losing out on the flashy rank 2 lb is definitely a no go in my books and i wholeheartedly agree with your statement.

If used at the first big pull after a boss fight and depending on one's party capability, the lb bar can be nearly or fully charged before the next boss fight. It is my personal opinion that using lb at the earliest opportunity and have the lb bar begin recharging as soon as possible can net the party additional lb use during the course of a dungeon run.

I really do like your response about the two camps and it is a reality that not everyone can share the same opinion. Some players should at least have the civility to address people with dignity when voicing their disagreement because nobody likes a bitter dungeon run.

Honestly I would've used it on that first boss as MCH.
I would've used it as MCH on final boss if the melee didn't use it right as LB2 had ticked off (maybe not RIGHT as but yanno..don't wait)

I'm tired of people waiting to use it as a finishing move. Use it or lose it. You did fine, they were probably going to wait till the last ten percent to use it (and that's a waste).

If an LB isn't used ASAP you're losing out on LB time. Also, While I'm not 100% sure on the breakdown for ranged LB, caster LB does more damage than melee on 2 or more targets, ranged is weaker but I highly doubt it's so much weaker that on 3+ targets it's not a DPS gain. So unless you used it just before LB 2 and the tank was hoping to use it on the adds in the last boss (totally not necessary) your tank was a moron.

If I ever lose the opportunity or a mechanic happens that makes LB not worth it when I'm on mnk. I always ask the AOE dPS to LB trash on the next big pull.

Hi there. I can see where you're coming from with regard to the limit break. In my opinion the limit break should be used at convenient times:

1) During a boss fight (generally only reserved for melee dps. But ranged should execute it if the melee is lacking attention, or there are no melee dps on the team)
2) To pull a boss (if you only have ranged dps)
3) To burn down a large controlled group of trash mobs

Now some people may argue that the limit break should always be kept on cooldown. Whilst I agree that in most circumstances that is a wholesome use of the limit break, I also think that it should be saved if you anticipate that the party is approaching the boss of the dungeon.

Ultimately, executing the limit break at a convenient time, whilst giving sufficient time for the bar to recharge before the boss, seems to be one of the more efficient methods of using this handy tool.

Don't like how lb is implemented. Each player needs their own bar. Otherwise I will almost never use it as a BLM. Since I am busting out LB damage like nothing when I get going.

In a dungeon where you can super-pull everything between the 1st and 2nd bosses, I would want to AoE LB that. Hell I've been known to just melee LB the hive wall in arboretum. From 2nd boss onwards just save for the lv2 quick kill on the last boss.

My take, be vocal. Whatever is what you are going to do, communicate. Throw in a "Hey, guys, I'm going to use lb on next pull so it fills against for the boss and we save some time", wait for any answer and proceed with the most fitting action.
I'll tell you a "reverse" example. A pull on Arboretum's second Honeycomb, I was paired with a BRD that didn't AoE during the whole dungeon to top it off:
I started my rotation with full opener because seeing BRD's dmg, we couldn't do it without at least losing the tank. After I popped all my shit and went to 1/4-1/2 of its HP with the opener, the Tank starts saying "LB". I didn't do it because I popped everything except Battle Littany and would enter the boss without buffs at all. So goes BRD at less than half hp and unleashes his LB and I end up going into the boss without a single jump or cd.
continues...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Erys

Continue

---

Whose fault was it? Tank's for saying it when a good chunk of the HP was removed and it was all ok, and mine for not saying we were going to be ok and was not needed.
BRD only followed orders and probably panicked a bit, which is ok. I suspect they were in premade also, but I could care less XD
What's my pityful excuse? Dirty console peasant. Either I dps or type XD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AskaRay

Honestly I would've used it on that first boss as MCH.
I would've used it as MCH on final boss if the melee didn't use it right as LB2 had ticked off (maybe not RIGHT as but yanno..don't wait)

I'm tired of people waiting to use it as a finishing move. Use it or lose it. You did fine, they were probably going to wait till the last ten percent to use it (and that's a waste).

---

I disagree; there are far too many non-melee DDs who are boss LB happy. If there's a melee DD, let him use it on the first boss.
Iff he doesn't, then use it yourself on the next big trash pull immediately after the tank's AoE hate move. This should save more time than using a weak LB on the first boss.

However, if you let this first AoE opportunity pass, then leave it alone. Once that first group is dead, any limit break by any DD before a 2-bar on the last boss will likely be a time loss.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jamillion

your tank was a moron.

---

Yeah, that and picking a fight about LB and V-kick at last boss? In pre-50 AV dungeon with a lvl synched party?
That Tank player deserves more expletives thrown at him tbh.

Maybe doing AV first time got him all wet in the pants and needed to vent.
Tanking AV being stressful and all (hah) =.=+ ahhh better stop there.

Hang in there OP ^3

Thank you for posting your thoughts and personal experience pertaining to the use of lb. All the inputs are valuable and your words of encouragement is greatly appreciated.

When the situation warrants it, creative use of lb outside of boss fight should be encouraged; for instance the Hive wall in Arboretum mentioned by Callback earlier in this thread. I hope this thread will serve, in however small capacity, as an introduction to the broad application of lb.

In the Letter from the Producer LIVE Part XXVI, during their coverage on "The Hall of the Novice"; they mentioned a training building with books. Perhaps they can include a Limit Break 101 book among its collection? Personally, i would love to read about how the potency of lb can be affected by our item levels, party composition etc.

There's nothing wrong with using an LB on a massive trash pull if it was unused during the boss and there's time to refill before the next boss. If it blew the group's chance for an LB2 for final boss that's less desirable, but I certainly don't think it's behavior worthy of a kick. At most, a couple words from another party member saying why that wasn't the best use of LB, then move on and clear the dungeon. -_-

People might not agree but tbh if you can use it on a heaping mob of enemies it could easily do more damage to all those enemies combined than that single target LB. And in the end isnt the total damage and time saved whats important?

If i was ranged id probably do this to and argue what i just said.

Although. I cant deny the value of the last boss LB2

I always use my caster limit break on trash pulls and have not had any complaints so far. Here's my reasoning why: people LOVE seeing big numbers, so when a melee pops that LB2 on a boss and they see that last 15% of their HP fall off they love it, it definitely creates the *illusion* of being more efficient, but in reality it isn't... at 4 mobs or more a caster LB1 (1400 potency x 4) already does more damage than a melee LB2 (5000 potency) and it does even more damage the more mobs there are, AND it can be used more often, because you're not worried about saving it for anything making it more efficient. Also, even if you use LB1 for trash chances are you will recharge back to LB1 during the boss fight and the melee can pop his LB1, so you really are only losing 7% more HP of the boss that you have to burn down, not 15%. As well, bosses die so quickly now that a lot of times you don't even reach that lv 2 gauge, making the wait for it pointless. I can understand saving melee LB for bosses when content is new or difficult but none of the content we have right now is either of those. Right now people just want to get runs done as fast as they can and caster or ranged lb 1 on trash pulls of 4 or more is better than melee LB2 on boss, it's simple math.

When to use LB in dungeons:
- As soon as possible
- As often as possible
- As long as the damage does not exceed target HP

20k damage is 20k damage, no matter who gets it in the face.

For AV specifically, I've made this handy flowchart for how to use LB as ranged/caster:

Code:

---

Are you fighting Locksmith?  ---> Yes ---> Don't LB
                |
                v
              No.
                |
                v
Are you fighting Coincounter?  ---> Yes ---> Don't LB
                |
                v
              No.
                |
                v
        LBLBLBLBLBLBLBLBLBLB

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Judah_Brandt

Could've done without the entire narrative, as you clearly felt the need to precede your actions with backstory as they are perceived to be incorrect by the majority of the player base. The only reason you'd need an excuse is if you thought you did something wrong. Though, I suppose calling it an excuse as opposed to reasoning would be more appropriate, in this instance it isn't. Ultimately think of it like this: did you save more time using the Limit Break as a ranged DPS on a bunch of trash mobs, or would you have saved more time on the last boss using a melee LB2. Correct answer is probably the latter. But it's Aurum Vale, so who cares.

---

That's incredibly false. The damage done for the entire group was increased significantly by hitting 6 mobs at 60% potency of a single bar LB than it would be on one target with 100% potency of melee lb. To put that in perspective, it did 360% of the melee LB in damage. There are no AoE skills that bring you to 360% of your single target DPS - with perhaps the exception of a SMN. Even then, I usually cap at around 300% sustained AoE over my sustained single, and this is only at level 60 when there are things like Deathflare. The AoE wouldn't be 300% of single target at level 49.

The amount a melee LB will save a run? Maybe like 10 seconds. Using it on trash makes that more like 12 seconds. So who cares?

To put it even more perspective for you. The 2 bar melee LB does 217% of a single bar LB - so a 1 bar aoe on 6 mobs of trash > 2 bar on single.

I always use it as a Bard if there are no melee DPS in the party or if the melee is one of those people who refuse to use anything until the last boss, which is I'd say 95% of my runs anyways. Ideally I will save it for a pull that will have more enemies than usual but if not then even three will do. The point is that I always leave it so that we definitely have a full bar for the final boss unless it's a low level run where you will never fill the second bar during the fight anyways. Generally speaking, you don't want to use it any later than at the beginning of the second boss fight, but at times even that can be cutting it close, especially in high level runs. I pretty much never use a one bar Limit Break on bosses since it seems much more beneficial to save it for a group pull.

As for having anyone hassle me over it.... no, no-one ever says anything.

It is 2016 and AV has been nerfed to hell...use LB on trash mobs or don't, it really doesn't matter much. Getting kicked before finishing the run, those noobs are abusing the system.

Depending on how long the NIN has been playing, we have been taught to hold the LB until the final boss of the dungeon. People actually still do that, me included.

*EDIT*
Nowadays, I WILL use it as a non-finishing move, but I do tend to wait until the final boss to pop it, though. I can't help it.

If you use it before the second boss you are almost guaranteed to get a full bar back regardless. Saving it just for the last boss is a bit like not using one of your cooldowns at all during the battle just to make sure it's ready for the beginning of the final boss fight(as far as logic goes I mean). You really should just use it if it's available before that point unless you are really worried about the party being anything like the OP's case. There's no harm in doing it whatsoever and it's a nice excuse to use it more often than what you usually see, especially for Ranged and Casters who usually only have the excuse available to them if there are no melee in the party in the first place.

Honestly if the melee doesn't use it on the first boss, then they don't get to get pissy over it being used on a trash pack... I used aoe lb in a pull with multiple enemies and the melee told me to not do it again, I just said I would and moved on. Ain't my fault he didn't lb the boss.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elkya95

Honestly if the melee doesn't use it on the first boss, then they don't get to get pissy over it being used on a trash pack... I used aoe lb in a pull with multiple enemies and the melee told me to not do it again, I just said I would and moved on. Ain't my fault he didn't lb the boss.

---

This right here. You don't use it when your chance comes up as a melee, I will use it as soon as I get the chance to as a ranged/caster. If you wanna whine, talk to my shiny rifle, cause I don't wanna hear it.

I would rather see a AOE lb used on a big trash pull over a boss with 5% health one thousand times out of one thousand.

The amount of times I have seen some derp lb at 1% just because...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

This right here. You don't use it when your chance comes up as a melee, I will use it as soon as I get the chance to as a ranged/caster. If you wanna whine, talk to my shiny rifle, cause I don't wanna hear it.

---

My only thing as a melee dps is that we really only have the option for bosses. I see some people talking like the single target LB has many options outside of that. Maybe LB one of those two Remedy Bombs over the boss.

But I tend to use it at least once before. Normally at 2nd boss at the start of the encounter. Usually have just before or a full LB one by the time we reach a fourth/final boss.

its a bit offtopic but i wonder why since HW... there are so many people who use LB2+ on raid bosses as well not letting the 3rd bar fill up... not to mention they waste it without any upcoming reason i can think off... well but thats maybe just me - any ideas?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neela

its a bit offtopic but i wonder why since HW... there are so many people who use LB2+ on raid bosses as well not letting the 3rd bar fill up... not to mention they waste it without any upcoming reason i can think off... well but thats maybe just me - any ideas?

---

For what content are you talking about? I've seen this in Void Ark, because the bars will be reset by next boss, so may as well use 2x bar instead of 0x bar. For Savage content, LB's are often planned with your static to work in the most efficient manner.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Morbid

My only thing as a melee dps is that we really only have the option for bosses. I see some people talking like the single target LB has many options outside of that. Maybe LB one of those two Remedy Bombs over the boss.

But I tend to use it at least once before. Normally at 2nd boss at the start of the encounter. Usually have just before or a full LB one by the time we reach a fourth/final boss.

---

There are a few HP sponges in dungeons between bosses that can soak a melee LB. Malboros, iron giants, treants -- big mobs, basically. It's really a matter of timing. Depending on your PT's DPS output, the LB may not charge until a boss fight anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Almalexia

There are a few HP sponges in dungeons between bosses that can soak a melee LB. Malboros, iron giants, treants -- big mobs, basically. It's really a matter of timing. Depending on your PT's DPS output, the LB may not charge until a boss fight anyway.

---

See in those situations there are also adds as well so I would see that as a Caster LB situation. /shrug

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Almalexia

There are a few HP sponges in dungeons between bosses that can soak a melee LB. Malboros, iron giants, treants -- big mobs, basically. It's really a matter of timing. Depending on your PT's DPS output, the LB may not charge until a boss fight anyway.

---

Any time there are two or more mobs that can be hit by a limit break, and assuming none of them are so critically weak that the lb damage is wasted, then a BRD/MCH limit or a caster LB will do more total damage than a melee using a single-target LB on a single enemy. If you're LB'ing trash, there is no reason not to use an AoE limit unless you tank is literally single-pulling stuff like a goof.

Though if you're burning the meter because you have no caster/range in party, or said player isn't bothering, then please carry on, my good man. If it will be back for last boss then by all means burn them quicker.

I am sorry you had that experience with the Tank and above all else, getting kicked. You were in the right using the LB as needed, the LB should have been used on the first boss. Unless the party is having issues and is just barely getting by there is no need to wait for the last few % to do it. The team should trust each other to know that if a LB is used, it is used in the best interest of the party. In your case it was a bunch of mobs and using a LoS to take them down. There was no reason to be kicked, there was no reason to save the LB for the duration in the dungeon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForumMog

Story Time

---

Totally agree! The whole time I was leveling my Blk for pvp usage, it would drive me bonkers seeing that LB gauge full and unused when it could be and begin filling up again. If it wasn't used on the first boss, I'd use it on the next big pull to melt the pack. Only time I wouldn't is the last two packs or so to have the 2 bar lb for the final boss.