What is the ninja's most up to date rotation?

I cannot find a simple stated rotation, too many mixed opinions and charts. I just want the basic excluding other abilities like BFB and IR.

For example, what do we use Duality with? And when do we use DWD?

Simple like below?

<Hide/Suiton>
Trick Attack [+10% dmg debuff for 10secs]
1-2-3 Dancing Edge combo [+10% slash dmg debuff]
Dream Within a Dream [while both debuffs are up, or atleast the +10% slash debuff is up]
Mutilate [DoT]
1-2-3 Aeolian Edge combo [Duality with Aeolian Edge]
1-2 Shadow Fang combo [DoT]

Repeat alternating between AE & DE combos
Add 1-2-3 Armor Crush combo for Huton duration extension

Re-order as you need to by priority due to Mudras.

Why is mutilate + shadow fang not first?

I always use trick attack at around the first 15 - 25 seconds in a boss fight. That's when the BLMs are starting to use fire IV, the MNKs have build up the grease lightning III, the SMNs are ready to cast tri disaster with raging strike and deathflare, etc.

I use DWD when all the debuffs are up or also the need of burst to kill adds. Duality is best used with Aeolian Edge while all the debuffs are up too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zaranghae

Why is mutilate + shadow fang not first?

---

Because they give better damage with the debuffs up, I haven't tested it yet, though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VisRalis

Simple like below?

<Hide/Suiton>
Trick Attack [+10% dmg debuff for 10secs]
1-2-3 Dancing Edge combo [+10% slash dmg debuff]
Dream Within a Dream [while both debuffs are up, or atleast the +10% slash debuff is up]
Mutilate [DoT]
1-2-3 Aeolian Edge combo [Duality with Aeolian Edge]
1-2 Shadow Fang combo [DoT]

Repeat alternating between AE & DE combos
Add 1-2-3 Armor Crush combo for Huton duration extension

Re-order as you need to by priority due to Mudras.

---

Don't pop TA that soon. You're gimping yourself and your party who also need a bit of a ramp up.

Assuming you pre-cast Huton and mudras are up on pull

Open suiton, then hold the buff for 1-2-DE. (replace dashes with buffs as needed, b4b, IR, dex pot if needed, etc.)
Then 1-TA-SF-DWD-mutilate-kassatsu-1-mug-2-raiton-duality-AE-(jug here if you're not stunning in the fight and boss is fully immune)

Then since it's ticking down 1-2-DE, 1-SF, 1-2-AC.

And move on from there.



Or I could be completely wrong. Who knows.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Callback

(jug here if you're not stunning in the fight and boss is fully immune)

---

Might be worth nothing that you can change effect to silence...

The above is "okay" for an opener (see below, but warning, it contains cooldowns, which you didn't want). For the OP, outside of opener, prioritize in this order:
[Below 1 means Spinning Edge and 2 means Gust Slash]
1. Keep Huton up
That means 1-2-Armor Crush, if you don't have Huton for some reason, then you need to manually cast it with Ninjustu.

2. Keep Ninjustu on Cooldown
As a corollary, keep Trick Attack on cooldown. This means in single target you should use Suiton (+Trick Attack) followed by 2 Raiton. Since you should also be keeping all cooldowns off cooldown (i.e. use all cooldowns when available), including Kassatsu, you 7 every 2 minutes. You also shouldn't use Kassastu when your Ninjustu is not on cooldown. If you lost Huton, then you need to prioritize this first. If you fell out of the loop as a result, prioritize keeping Trick Attack on cooldown.

3. Keep Slashing Debuff up
Meaning 1-2-Dancing Edge
It should be clear here that slashing debuff (and your damage stances for that matter) does not affect Ninjustu aside from Fuma Shuriken and it (Slashing Debuff) doesn't affect DoT damage aside from the initial hit. Other than that, it's sort of like always having Blood for Blood (on that target) up. That said, Blood for Blood affects everything and your damage stances to affect the damage of DoT ticks.

4. Keep DoTs up
If you have to choose, go for Shadow Fang first (1-Shadow Fang) then Mutilate.

5. Use Aeolian Edge
That means 1-2-Aeolian Edge. It's your highest potency non-Dot, on GCD move. So you should be using it when you have nothing else to do.

Luckily, after the opener, this follows nicely into a (GCD) rotation because the timing lines up:
Opener-> 1-> 2-> Armor Crush-> 1-> Shadow Fang-> 1-> 2-> Dancing Edge-> 1-> 2-> Armor Crush or Aeolian Edge-> Mulitate-> 1-> Shadow Fang-> 1-> 2-> Dancing Edge-> (repeats from here) 1-> 2-> Armor Crush
Because buff timers will be attack different places depending on GCD, just keep in mind that it's better that DoT don't clip if you can avoid it, and it better for Slashing debuff to clip if the alternative is to let it fall off.

As for the opener, assuming you don't use consumables:
Pre-pull 21.5 seconds -> Huton
Pre-pull 1.5 seconds (20 seconds later) -> Suiton (Hold for pull obviously)

Pull -> (Off GCD moves in parenthesis)
(Cast Sution, i.e press the Ninjustu button)-> 1-> (Kassatsu + Internal Release) -> 2-> (Blood for Blood) -> Dancing Edge -> (Jugilate) -> 1 -> (Trick Attack) -> Shadow Fang -> (Raiton) -> Mutilate -> (Mug) -> 1 -> (Dream within a Dream) -> 2 -> (Duality) -> Aeolian Edge -> 1 -> 2 -> Dancing Edge -> Rotation

If you use a potion, then you can replace the Jugitate after Dancing edge with it and use Jugilate after Aeolian Edge. The whole theory behind the opener (as every opener) is to maximize damage by doing the highest potency moves under the largest amount of buffs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AriaEnia

Because they give better damage with the debuffs up, I haven't tested it yet, though.

---

The slashing debuff works on the initial hit of Mutilate and Shadow Fang, but not the DoT portion of the damage. Someone correct me if that has changed and been tested. However, the slashing debuff applies to all of your auto-attacks and other physical abilities so you want Dancing Edge up ASAP.

Also, if you're not able to be behind the enemy (solo, mob positioning, AoE, etc) then Dancing Edge or Armor Crush (on flank) are higher potency than Aeolian Edge. Don't waste Duality on AE if for some reason you can't get the position bonus.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

Might be worth nothing that you can change effect to silence...

---

Duh. If you're not stunning you already have viper on anyway which is why it's here. Immune bosses are safe either way, tho stun immune silenceable (if those exist) would be better wasped unless again you are on silence duty for a big spell it has. If you ARE stunning you're on wasp and need to save it.

I just figured the more consice version would be enough to explain on its own.

So basically it would be 1. DE 2. Mutilate 3. SF in rotation order?

As for TA stuff, open with suiton -> DE build up, on DE use TA -> Mutilate -> DWD -> SF build up -> Aeolian build up?

I've always opened with mutilate -> SF -> and then DE

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Callback

Duh. If you're not stunning you already have viper on anyway which is why it's here. Immune bosses are safe either way, tho stun immune silenceable (if those exist) would be better wasped unless again you are on silence duty for a big spell it has. If you ARE stunning you're on wasp and need to save it.

I just figured the more consice version would be enough to explain on its own.

---

There isn't diminishing returns for silence so it can be use 100% of the time without regard for the fight. If you need to stun something you can switch to wasp right before you use it (it's off GCD).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

There isn't diminishing returns for silence so it can be use 100% of the time without regard for the fight. If you need to stun something you can switch to wasp right before you use it (it's off GCD).

---

Kind of, but if it's an emergency stun the animation on wasp plus jug might be too much to get it in time.

I did not know that about silence tho. I figured since stun and slow work that way all CC would.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zaranghae

So basically it would be 1. DE 2. Mutilate 3. SF in rotation order?
As for TA stuff, open with suiton -> DE build up, on DE use TA -> Mutilate -> DWD -> SF build up -> Aeolian build up?

I've always opened with mutilate -> SF -> and then DE

---

I would use SF before mutilate (higher potency so uptime is more valuable). As for the opener, it objective it to hit your highest potency moves (which are SF, Trick Attack/Sneak attack, Crit Raiton, and AE) under all of your buffs (Slash debuff, B4B, Vuln up (from TA), and potion). As I noted Raiton is no longer affected by slashing debuff and obviously you can't get TA under it's own debuff but the other move placements are to ensure that you get all of those moves under all the buffs. Duality cannot be used on off GCD moves like Trick Attack and Ninjustu and also does not apply DoTs twice so the highest potency move you can use it for is Aeolian Edge. In the rotation, every one of those moves will be hit under all the buffs with the exception of TA under it's own debuff. You also cannot use TA later, as you will loss the suition buff, or earlier as it will fall off before AE. Since SF is you're highest potency move (of all for that matter), you definitely want to use it when all of the buffs and debuffs are up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zaranghae

I cannot find a simple stated rotation, too many mixed opinions and charts. I just want the basic excluding other abilities like BFB and IR.

---

OP did want a simple stated rotation... XD without getting into mixed opinions etc etc etc.
Something basic rt :P

Sorry if the rotation was too simple but since a lot commented about when to use TA and DoTs, looks like things are clear enough...?

Regarding when to use TA - well that's up to your party composition.
DRGs would like it early if they're using their jumps weaved in during their 1st combo.
Using TA after your 1st 1-2-3 combo would seems too slow for.
Early TA and Shadewalker on your tank helps them hit harder for their opener and hold aggro ahead more...etc

Yeah sometimes I like to use Mutilate as my opener (& reapply at end while TA debuff is still up) but depends on how fast of a burst opener the party wants.
Better early than late rt ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkstride

The slashing debuff works on the initial hit of Mutilate and Shadow Fang, but not the DoT portion of the damage. Someone correct me if that has changed and been tested. However, the slashing debuff applies to all of your auto-attacks and other physical abilities so you want Dancing Edge up ASAP.

Also, if you're not able to be behind the enemy (solo, mob positioning, AoE, etc) then Dancing Edge or Armor Crush (on flank) are higher potency than Aeolian Edge. Don't waste Duality on AE if for some reason you can't get the position bonus.

---

Thank you for the clarification. And yes I agree with you, position bonus is the deciding factor here.

Okay I have a good idea now, I do not do consistent trained raids, so it's mostly pugs and informal dungeon runs that I do. I just still have some confusion of when to proc TA + DWD since this whole alignment of skills is off GCD which can be stressful button mashing.

Also, how should I use Shadewalker in pugs? If it transmits 80% of enmity towards the target, does that mean ninjas can pull bosses with suiton + hide?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zaranghae

Also, how should I use Shadewalker in pugs? If it transmits 80% of enmity towards the target, does that mean ninjas can pull bosses with suiton + hide?

---

Most bosses (in fact, all that I'm aware of) will detect you even with Hide active, so you can't use Shadewalker this way. It's best used at the start of a boss pull on the tank to help them get an enmity lead (this is especially useful if the tank has weaker gear than you or the other DPS). You can also use it sometimes if the tank hasn't seen a stray monster by putting it on him and then attacking that monster yourself, and it also works to help the tank get enmity back if there is a wipe or something.

Well i do play Nin often enough but am not Nin "main", i had always been told that the earlier you apply ta the better?
I mean it is dependent on fight, group composition, etc...
I am actually asking not indicating people are wrong, lol

This is probably the most comprehensive ninja guide to date by one of the best ninjas in the game. It explains the openers and AOE rotations but also shows the math and /why/ you want to dancing edge before dots, or why you want to prioritize shadow fang over mutilate. UBER is on point though and saying pretty much the same thing.

http://dtguilds.com/forum/m/6563292/...as-ninja-guide

Trick attack applications is best used a few GCDS into the fight for maximum raid utilization. Typically it's 4. While this doesn't capture the burst for every class, it captures the burst for most of them which start utilizing higher potency moves after the 3rd or 4th gcd.

From source:
Opener w/o potion: Longform: Huton > (wait 20s) > Suiton > Spinning Edge > Kassatsu & Internal Release > Gust Slash > Blood for Blood > Dancing Edge > Jugulate > Spinning Edge > Trick Attack > Shadow Fang > Raiton > Mutilate > Dream within a Dream > Spinning Edge > Mug > Gust Slash > Duality > Aeolian Edge

Opener w/ potion: Longform: Huton > (wait 20s) > Suiton > Spinning Edge > Kassatsu & Internal Release > Gust Slash > Potion > Dancing Edge > Blood for Blood > Spinning Edge > Trick Attack > Shadow Fang > Raiton > Mutilate > Dream within a Dream > Spinning Edge > Mug > Gust Slash > Duality > Aeolian Edge > Jugulate

The only difference is that b4b is pushed back in favor of the potion and jug is moved to the end due to lower potency.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maero

Well i do play Nin often enough but am not Nin "main", i had always been told that the earlier you apply ta the better?
I mean it is dependent on fight, group composition, etc...
I am actually asking not indicating people are wrong, lol

---

Every class (and I mean every class) has a burst rotation that depends on a 20 second (or set of 20 second) cooldown. Given that they also use potions in the rotation (15 sec) and need to use a few startup skills (e..g heavy thrust+combo to disembowel, 3 hits for GLIII, Fire III/Shapcasted Fire + Blizzard III depending on rotation, dancing edge combo, etc.) they will use the potion in the tail end of the 20 seconds rather than the beginning. Using it at the pull means that you are using it, when no class is ready to take advantage of the bonuses for their burst rotation. So somewhere between 5-10 seconds in the fight will allow everyone with ample to to use their start up skills.

As an easy example, look at ninja. You need to ramp up the first dancing edge combo and don't use B4B or potion until the 2nd or 3rd GCDs. Everyone else is in a similar situation. Even if they use their CDs right as the fight start, if you get TA up before 10 seconds in the fight, it will have 100% up time under their buffs. Because we know this not be the case, we can argue that the best time for TA uptime would be between 5-25 seconds of the fight. Which essentially means you need to use it between 5-15 seconds of the fight starting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AriaEnia

I always use trick attack at around the first 15 - 25 seconds in a boss fight. That's when the BLMs are starting to use fire IV, the MNKs have build up the grease lightning III, the SMNs are ready to cast tri disaster with raging strike and deathflare, etc.

---

15-25 seconds is not when BLMs are starting F4 casts, but when they're already at least half done or even finished and switched to ice at the 25 second mark. 15 seconds is maybe enough for the last three spells, but any later than that and you get a sad mage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

info

---

Ahh well i usually do not use out of the gate so to say, but thanks for all of that info, also thanks Dante for the info as well :)
I still main blm but use Ninja for Roulettes or if needed in raids.

Hi everyone,
I have been reading some of these last comments and lately I have been wondering if there was a better rotation than what I use. A few days back I have read the Shasta's rotation, which it's reasonable but I think it over complicates a few steps.

I start with Huton and I let my Tank pull when I have 4-5s left for the jutsu cooldown, then it goes:
Internal Release - Spinning edge - Blood for blood - Gust Slash - Pot - Dancing Edge - Suiton - Spinning edge - Trick Attack - Shadow Fang - Kassatsu - Mutilate - Raiton - Spinning Edge - Dream within a dream - Gust slash - Mug + Duality - Aeolian Edge - Jugulate

And then I refresh cds with this priority Huton>Shadow Fang>Dancing Edge>Mutilate.

Duality with AE are done at the last second of TA so it's perfect, IR finishes a few seconds before and duality cannot crit. IR might as well be used after the first Spinning Edge, reducing SE crit rate but it can last longer for some extra crit inside the Trick Attack duration.

As a raiding NIN main, I prefer Suiton on pull, because
1. Eliminates GCD clipping from doing 3-mudra mid rotation
2. Frees up the ninjutsu cooldown sooner, meaning kassatsu can be used sooner

Suiton on DE benefits from b4b ir and maybe foes requiem

Regardless, the opener trick attack is always the same
SF, mutilate, duality aeolian edge, crit raiton, dream within dream, mug
10 seconds for 5 gcd and 4 off gcd actions