Apparently I'm distracting (and not the good kind)

Ran Expert today, got Pharos Sirius Hard with what I presume from character names must have been a preformed party of at least 2, possibly 3. (PLD and WHM had same last name, but BRD's was of similar unpronouncability)

After greetings are done I do things as usual with SMN: AoE the hell out of everything. After the first pull the tanks stalls for awhile, I'm presuming to complain in FC/linkshell chat. Second pull, same story, next verse. We get to the boss, I do my thing, boss goes down, no problem. Before the next set of trash, we stall some more. At this point, the ONLY thing in party chat is the hi's and hello's from the start.

After the next set of trash, before the bomb incubator, the tank finally blows up: "Stay away. PLEASE. You're causing me problems to avoid AoEs since earlier."

It takes me a moment to register that I'm the one being addressed. I apologize, although I'm really confused considering that if I haven't been eating AoEs, then HE shouldn't have.

"You don't need to use that bad AoE that does no damage[s]. You have nice skills as SMN. You have the lvl 60 skill. You have the debuff. Please use those instead of Miasma [II] and Blizz II."

Uh... okay. So for the rest of the instance, since I'm not sure what was a problem and what wasn't, I stuck to DoTs, Bane and Fester.

So this brings up some questions:

1. For multiple targets, I thought Miasma II and Blizz II were okay? Considering he was doing decent sized pulls I thought they would've been helpful.

2. Do I now need to ask tanks if I should use AoE skills?

I'm feeling really confused and hurt by this. More confused, I guess. I mean, I'm definitely flexible. You ask for single-target, I'll do it. You want to LB the last pack, I'll do it. Just say something. But waiting halfway through the dungeon to bring up this AND call into question my ability as SMN is kind of... low.

On the off-chance that one of this party visits the forums and sees this, I'm really sorry I was causing trouble, but the above statements express what I really wanted to say.

You being in melee doesn't somehow make melee AoEs target him more often.

Congratulations, you met another bad player in a Dungeon. Welcome to the club, there are plenty of them. You did nothing wrong.

Man if they hate you as a DPS using Miasma II and Blizz II then they must REALLY hate me doing that as a SCH.

Id love to have ya in a random dungeon doing what smns actually should be doing. Don't worry about that party; Baddies gonna bad ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

My skin is thick, as people complain about everything. I never understood why people be so focused on what another person is doing. I was in a dungeon as NIN. I used a Morel Salad HQ. The DRG lol'd at me, asking why I'm not using a Truffle HQ. I never responded. Like, seriously... Do your job, and leave me alone.

What you were doing sounds fine. It sounds like it's the tank who can't manage properly. Forget about that guy, if he cant stand a few hits, why tank geez.

Your response should have been "lol k." Seriously, wtf. Blaming other players for own mistakes is one the most stupid things DF people do...

More than likely his complaint was that he couldn't SEE the orange AoE effects underneath the Blizzard II graphic spam, not that you were causing more of them, and he was getting hit by some of them. It probably annoyed him because he wasn't used to having to spot around the massive ice cluster, and might not have been in the mood for new stuff in rank-and-file content.

Sure he could have turned off spell effects, but he shouldn't have had to. Regardless you did what you should have in this particular DF, and that's refrain while still keeping up to your best, and if nothing else at least he gave it a while before he decided he couldn't deal with it.

So no, the tank probably wasn't great, but this went down pretty decently by duty finder standards.

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Originally Posted by LegoTechnic

More than likely his complaint was that he couldn't SEE the orange AoE effects underneath the Blizzard II graphic spam, not that you were causing more of them, and he was getting hit by some of them. It probably annoyed him because he wasn't used to having to spot around the massive ice cluster, and might not have been in the mood for new stuff in rank-and-file content.

Sure he could have turned off spell effects, but he shouldn't have had to. Regardless you did what you should have in this particular DF, and that's refrain while still keeping up to your best, and if nothing else at least he gave it a while before he decided he couldn't deal with it.

So no, the tank probably wasn't great, but this went down pretty decently by duty finder standards.

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After giving myself the day to mull over this (I'm a fairly anxiety-and-depression prone guy, by the way), I came to the same conclusion as you did. That's part why I ditched most of my AoE abilities in favor of just finishing the run.

This leaves so many holes though:

1. As I said, regardless of Blizzard II's effect, if I had to dodge stuff, he had to as well. Not once did I see either of our HP bars dip drastically to the point where the healer had to rescue anyone.
2. You said it yourself, there's options to turn off spell effects in case there's doubts. This tank had every job leveled to 60, so to argue he shouldn't have had to is confusing. It's not like he had no idea Blizzard II existed.
3. He was tanking just fine, but assuming he went nuts with FATEs to get to where he did: did he seriously start shouting to everyone the area to stop spamming Circle of Scorn/Unleash/Flare/Holy/Ring of Thorns/etc. so he could dodge everything?
4. On a related note, how does he tank with melee DPS? Monks and Elixir Field, Dragoons, Ninjas and Ninjutsus... not to mention they have to be in his personal space constantly to do anything.
5. My biggest problem: he stalled at least 3 times prior to the complaint with no words. For a good 2-3 minutes each time. I highly doubt he was okay with it from the beginning. Each of those moments would've been PERFECT to say what he said (minus the omitted explicative; I'm not sure how well the forum mods deal with language), instead of blowing up and completely throwing me off my game for the rest of the instance. I was serious about little I was left using: I think I even idled several times in the middle of fights because I had no idea what to do.

None of this came up at the time, of course, and even if it had, I'm really shy not to mention I'm always for finishing the run rather than having little things turn into big things.

I appreciate the feedback, though my original concerns had to do with whether Miasma II and Blizzard II are "bad" or not. I'm going to admit most of my rotation comes from head-math and not guides or any expert advice.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

My skin is thick, as people complain about everything. I never understood why people be so focused on what another person is doing. I was in a dungeon as NIN. I used a Morel Salad HQ. The DRG lol'd at me, asking why I'm not using a Truffle HQ. I never responded. Like, seriously... Do your job, and leave me alone.

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You should have answered "Because I'm not wasting food on you"

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Originally Posted by Ninster

I appreciate the feedback, though my original concerns had to do with whether Miasma II and Blizzard II are "bad" or not. I'm going to admit most of my rotation comes from head-math and not guides or any expert advice.

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Blizzard II is stronger AoE DPS any time you would otherwise be using Ruin and are hitting at least two or more enemies. That said, it is also one of your least effective moves. It's better than Ruin but nothing else, so using it is indeed good in AoE situations. Miasma II is the same, as it has an effective potency of 70 on a target if the dot is allowed to fully tick down, but since trash dies too quickly most recommend to only use it if there are three or more mobs (as the dot doesn't always get to complete in most parties). You are indeed playing well if you're using these two abilities properly.

As for why the tank took offense, it could be something as simple as the sound of the move annoyed him. Maybe he had a headache. Maybe his mother was killed by spontaneous ice crystals exploding out of the freezer. It really doesn't matter, but he apparently couldn't deal with it (or just didn't want to), and you adjusted accordingly, which allowed you to complete the instance without further issue. But no, using those moves when appropriate is a sign that you are actually doing your job unless it's the rare instance where you need to focus something down quickly (like a final sting bee), but that shouldn't be the case that early in the instance. My personal guess is that he just wasn't used to seeing it, and it annoyed him amidst the massive bomb explosions that accompany Pharos Hard. Additionally if you're also using Shadowflare then it does get rather "colorful" for a tank in narrow areas if their camera decides to be lame. So it goes.

Sometimes a good player has to step back and baby a less-effective party member in duty finder or you'll never get anywhere. That doesn't make you less of a good player, and it doesn't make them a better one either, but it's not always conducive to get into a playstyle debate in roulette runs. Dungeons are unfortunately stupid-easy, so you don't often see people playing at their best in roulettes, and that's just something you have to be ready to deal with.

The Tank was an idiot. Bottom line.

Using Miasma II and Blizzard II on multiple targets is perfectly fine, as that's how they're meant to be used. I tend to see the latter being ignored a lot by SMNs I come across, but Blizzard II is really good for large pulls - especially when under DWT. MP cost aside, it's a nice filler while your DoTs are doing their work.

This is why I turn off/minimize party effects. I get tired of the shiny flashy stuff going on and it makes it hard to keep up with what the trash packs or bosses are doing. Your tank had the option of turning THEIR settings down if it bothered them so much.

Also: was your WHM not using Holy? Because THAT is a much much MUCH more distracting spell than Blizz II or Miasma since it covers the entire screen in a brilliant flash, has a loud ringing sound, and lingers for seconds... usually long enough for the second cast to take its place.

Tank here. Blizzard II all you want. If I can dodge stuff while there's a venn-diagram-from-hell of Shadow Flares from the two Summoners and Scholar, then whoever you get can put up with an ice effect that shouldn't even apply to 95% of the splats they'd care about.

Seriously don't even understand why this was a complaint.

How does this guy play with melee dps?

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Originally Posted by Ninster

After giving myself the day to mull over this (I'm a fairly anxiety-and-depression prone guy, by the way), I came to the same conclusion as you did. That's part why I ditched most of my AoE abilities in favor of just finishing the run.

I appreciate the feedback, though my original concerns had to do with whether Miasma II and Blizzard II are "bad" or not. I'm going to admit most of my rotation comes from head-math and not guides or any expert advice.

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You did everything right with using miasma II and bliz II. Its actually very common that most SMNs dont put in the effort to use these two skills for aoe as they have to be used in melee range and cost a bit of MP but they are nonetheless essential to having high AOE dps as a SMN and its a shame so few SMNs use them. Dont let that experience discourage you from using those skills. The tank was an idiot outright.

On the visual complaint, its true that a lot of skills block your view in melee range but thats on the tank or melee player to solve, not on you. I myself have party effects turned off so i can still comfortably see AOE indicators and the mobs flank or rear.

As a main SMN it is true, even I think that we are a bit too flashy when we get all our aoe moves going. The combination of painflare, shadowflare, miasma II, blizz II and the occasional dragon head and deathflare do make for quite a lightshow concentrated in a very small radius (on top of mobs). I usually try to stand to the side of mobs while still hitting all of them with blizz and miasma and have had no complaints so far even if it is a bit hard for even me to see at times. Regardless, if the tank is paying attention they should not be getting hit by any AOE just as the SMN aoeing isn't. My guess is the tank was tired or just bored (like most people running dungeons for the 100th time) and was not in the mood to put in the extra effort of paying closer attention to the telegraphs. Nice to see more SMNs using all their skills to their maximum potential though, the amount of SMNs that never use either of those two skills is insane.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

My skin is thick, as people complain about everything. I never understood why people be so focused on what another person is doing. I was in a dungeon as NIN. I used a Morel Salad HQ. The DRG lol'd at me, asking why I'm not using a Truffle HQ. I never responded. Like, seriously... Do your job, and leave me alone.

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Ahaha, this comment made me laugh a lot. Even if I haven't had very many bad experiences, there's nothing but truth in it.

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Originally Posted by Ninster

Snip

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In fact, if the animations created by your AoEs were disturbing him that much (why not?), it should easily be fixed by simplifying party's skills animation under the personal setups. And assuming he doesn't know about that, he should have told you about this way sooner.

I main SMN and I can agree with everything said here; you did your job effectively and efficiently and that tank had absolutely no reason to have reprimanded you since your job is to do as much damage over time as possible. The tank probably took any and all frustrations from his/her day out on you over something as small as the difficulty of dodging aoes becoming a tad bit harder or was simply feeling particularly mean/elitist that day. He just isn't a very good tank is all, regardless of the reason.

How is Blizz2 viable as a SMN? Does a SMN somehow buff it? It's not even viable on BLM.

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

How is Blizz2 viable as a SMN? Does a SMN somehow buff it? It's not even viable on BLM.

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It's because Ruin and Ruin II are complete and utter trash despite being SMN's primary filler ability. Blizzard is a 50 potency AoE move with 2.5 second cast, and Ruin is an 80 potency single-target spell with a 2.5 second cast (2.5 recast in case of Ruin II). If there are two or more mobs then anytime you would be casting ruin (and are not moving or focusing a target), then Blizzard II will be more damage.

Amusingly it tends to be a bottom barrel option for BLMs, but it can be quite handy for SMNs in large pulls as filler while waiting for cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by LegoTechnic

It's because Ruin and Ruin II are complete and utter trash despite being SMN's primary filler ability. Blizzard is a 50 potency AoE move with 2.5 second cast, and Ruin is an 80 potency single-target spell with a 2.5 second cast (2.5 recast in case of Ruin II). If there are two or more mobs then anytime you would be casting ruin (and are not moving or focusing a target), then Blizzard II will be more damage.

Amusingly it tends to be a bottom barrel option for BLMs, but it can be quite handy for SMNs in large pulls as filler while waiting for cooldowns.

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It's not even a bottom barrel option, lol. I don't even have it on my cast bar as Freeze is superior in every way, and it's completely useless. In only play with sometimes to compare DPS to make sure it's still useless.

It's funny that it's viable on Summoner.

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

It's not even a bottom barrel option, lol. I don't even have it on my cast bar as Freeze is superior in every way, and it's completely useless. In only play with sometimes to compare DPS to make sure it's still useless.

It's funny that it's viable on Summoner.

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Its because BLM has a spamable AOE with higher potency via fire II. SMN on the other hand only has AOE via dots (through bane or miasma II) or via spending ather for painflare. So if you have all your dots already ticking and lack aether then you can pretty much do no further AOE. In that case doing ice II for 50 pot AOE is better than doing no AOE.

I hate Ice II with a passion, that's why I'm so glad it sucks so much for BLM that I could literally throw the skill away (from my hotbar) :mad:
I never saw it used anywhere since 2013 (because ARR was new and people were still figuring stuff out), but I don't really play SMN so I don't consider myself an expert on this x)
Just saying that I never saw other SMNs in df use it. Which doesn't have to mean anything, we all know randoms often suck.
But yeah, if I was tanking, I'd hate you using Ice II as well. Maybe I'm a bad tank, but I can't see shit when it is used. I have no problem with AoE circles from DRK, NIN, BRD and the like, only slight trouble with gigantic explosions from WHM and BLM, but Ice II makes all of my ground vanish and I hate it :(

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Originally Posted by Atoli

I hate Ice II with a passion, that's why I'm so glad it sucks so much for BLM that I could literally throw the skill away (from my hotbar) :mad:
I never saw it used anywhere since 2013 (because ARR was new and people were still figuring stuff out):(

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Because it used to be 100 potency on the GCD with absolutely no downtime, thus making it a faster cast than fire 2 without the downtime and without requiring a target, thus meaning you never had to worry about your target being killed by someone else and thus losing out on the cast time.

I think straight up blizz2 spam was around 80% of what you could do than fire2.

For all the convenience it was an acceptable loss of DPS.

Oh Bliz2 is pretty great...as a PVP skill...when Freeze is no longer an option.

That said yes Summoners get more mileage off of it.

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

How is Blizz2 viable as a SMN? Does a SMN somehow buff it? It's not even viable on BLM.

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It's not viable on BLM (obviously!!!) because BLM has higher potency GCD AoE. The only GCD AoEs SMN has are Miasma II (which is DoT so not spammable) and Tri-Bind, which is both weaker (30 potency!!!) and cost more MP. Please tell me you were just ignorant and thought SMN could use Fire II and Flare or something...

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Originally Posted by Atoli

I hate Ice II with a passion, that's why I'm so glad it sucks so much for BLM that I could literally throw the skill away (from my hotbar) :mad:
I never saw it used anywhere since 2013 (because ARR was new and people were still figuring stuff out), but I don't really play SMN so I don't consider myself an expert on this x)
Just saying that I never saw other SMNs in df use it. Which doesn't have to mean anything, we all know randoms often suck.
But yeah, if I was tanking, I'd hate you using Ice II as well. Maybe I'm a bad tank, but I can't see shit when it is used. I have no problem with AoE circles from DRK, NIN, BRD and the like, only slight trouble with gigantic explosions from WHM and BLM, but Ice II makes all of my ground vanish and I hate it :(

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Or maybe they halved the potency so people would use Fire II???

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

Or maybe they halved the potency so people would use Fire II???

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Doubt it as the same patch that nerfed it also made it available as a cross class skill, so surely they had SMN and SCH in mind when they nerfed it (WHM has Holy). It was made a cross skill as a they removed lightning because it was too op for SMN at the time.

Blizzard 2 was used in a double Flare rotation when it was still possbile back in the day. The rotation was F3 - F2 'til low - Flare - B2 - B2 - Flare - Flare- B2 - B2 - etc. It required some timing to get it right and was absolutely devastating to whiff it, but it put out more DPS than the normal F2 AoE rotation when done correctly.

The way how they "fixed" it still haunts us to this day.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

You being in melee doesn't somehow make melee AoEs target him more often.

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Well, technically you can drop AoEs targeting you on the melee by stacking on them in several dungeons, the very start of Pharos being among them... but if he isn't some weird cast-locked melee hybrid... he can dodge. Easily. And if he has no positionals, I don't see any reason for complaint.

Thank you for maximizing your AoE dps.

I know you were being nice to them to just finish the run. But to be truly nice to them they needed to know they were wrong or they are gonna prey on the next SMN until someone sets them straight. Oh well they'll run into an elitist SMN that can destroy them with potency numbers eventually lol.

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Originally Posted by ChaozK

Doubt it as the same patch that nerfed it also made it available as a cross class skill, so surely they had SMN and SCH in mind when they nerfed it (WHM has Holy). It was made a cross skill as a they removed lightning because it was too op for SMN at the time.

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They couldn't make it obvious that Tri-Disaster (as it was named at the time) was useless. But the reason was to fix the AoE imbalance. Of course, it went without saying that the end result didn't quite go as expected (they simultaneously changed timings for UI and AF) and we ended up using a "rotation" that just consisted of Flare (i.e.):
Fire 3 -> (Fire II filler) -> Flare -> Transpose -> (mana tick + 2 seconds) -> Flare -> Flare -> Transpose -> (mana tick + 2 seconds) -> Flare -> Flare -> Transpose -> (mana tick + 2 seconds) -> Flare -> Flare -> Transpose -> ad infinitum...

You should stand in melee range when spamming ruin 2 on single target anyway for auto attacks. (seems dumb but it does increase dps a bit)

As dumb as it may seem, SMN is kinda a melee mage because you get more both in AoE and single target by being in melee range (blizz2 and ruin2/book spaking)

Of course it's situational (if you stack too many people in melee range you might hinder melee dps more than you'll gain by being in melee range yourself) but it's still here.

You've nothing to worry about. You were doing your job. Like people said before me, that person was a bad player. Cobtinute to rock SMN the only way you can.