New Tank Help

TL: DR Looking for advice on how to handle the first few group dungeons as a tank new to this game.

I have been tanking for years so am not new to the basic mechanics. I understand how threat works and have been through the initial tutorial dungeons (up to level 20).

So far I am running as a MRD and leveled GLD to 8 to get Flash.

I have taken my time and gotten a decent set of gear and done all my class quests.

My primary concern is the pace at which people tend to go in these lower level dungeons. I have GREAT AoE control and have been practicing positioning in the tutorial dungeons through the Duty Finder. That said how fast should I go and how much should I pull? As they are lower level and I have decent gear for my level should I pull multiple groups in the first real dungeon?

I don't want to push it and have the group wipe, but at the same time I keep hearing all these horror stories about groups kicking the tank because they only pull one group at a time.

As far as dungeons goes it's pretty simple. The party will move to your tempo for the most part. It's actually easy in the beginning it becomes challenging as the game plays on. Bosses harder to tank and you have to learn how to do the tango with certain bosses or when to pop cool downs to stay alive and support your healer in keeping you alive. Don't think to hard on it. Look up some vids if you need a for sure answer or ideas. Tanking doesn't become complicated until you start breaking in on how to stance dance and using cool downs. People have difficulties with that but it takes experience and trail and error to learn. People will talk trash and have their own words. Don't let it get too you. Do your best to complete dungeon or trail also remember it's a game not worth it if you're not enjoying yourself. Happy tanking!

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Originally Posted by Kindread

That said how fast should I go and how much should I pull? As they are lower level and I have decent gear for my level should I pull multiple groups in the first real dungeon?

I don't want to push it and have the group wipe, but at the same time I keep hearing all these horror stories about groups kicking the tank because they only pull one group at a time.

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Depends on party composition, your party's gear, and the sync level of the dungeon. If your healer's not up to par, or if you have only melee jobs, it's generally not worth it. Melee jobs generally don't get AOEs until the 30's and 40's, bards and casters get AOEs much earlier.

Low level dungeons are nothing to worry over. The Tank sets the pace (unless you have some really dick-ish Dps), and as long as you declare you are new at the start most people tend to be forgiving.

My suggestion would be to always play it safe your first time that you run a new dungeon. Having great AoE control and knowing how enmity works is great, but knowing the actual dungeon can be more important, especially at higher level content. The first time you go in a dungeon you won't know where everything is, and you won't know if there are monsters who have special attacks, AoE's, or status effects. Pulling big in Sastasha will probably be fine, but if you try the same thing in Quarn the first time you'll probably get killed by Final Sting and not know what happened. So, my general rule of thumb is to play it safe until you actually know the dungeon.

It's also a good idea to keep an eye on your healer. I almost always "examine" my healer to check out their gear, and I don't pull more than they can heal. If the "one or more party members has not completed this duty" sign comes up at the beginning, I ask who it is to check if it's the healer. I do this, because even if you know the dungeon inside and out it won't make a difference if your healer can't keep you alive.

Yeah to piggy back on pulling. Be careful like I said the dungeons train you how to tank once you survive Aurum Vale that's it. So far dungeons haven't touch the problems that one comes with as far as pulling and you deal with that at lvl 48 so you will be seasoned by then. Trials and bossing and raids. Those you have to watch videos or shadow a season tank. If all tanks are new get ready for some fun haha. You got it. Since day one I warn all those that I'm new or fairly new. It gives everyone a heads up on what to expect and they'll talk you through it. But there are a.holes out there who expect you to be perfect at all times and there may be a time where youre kicked for being undergear while trying to get gear stupid but that's how it is sometimes. Again good luck happy tanking.

Thanks so much for all the support and feedback.

How would you suggest I keep my gear up to speed as I level up? I love tanking dungeons so I will likely get some dungeon gear, but there is always a few pieces lacking .. will the quest gear be sufficient or should I seek a crafter?

It may be a moot point in the leveling dungeons, but as I am already inexperienced I would like to have a gear buffer whenever I can.

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Originally Posted by Kindread

How would you suggest I keep my gear up to speed as I level up? I love tanking dungeons so I will likely get some dungeon gear, but there is always a few pieces lacking .. will the quest gear be sufficient or should I seek a crafter?

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While you're leveling, that's an easy one: Just run more dungeons.

The highest possible dungeons for your current level cap will drop gear for that level. After that, you will want to supplement the pieces that you don't have with pieces you buy off of the Market Board. This will most likely be accessories. It is not worth crafting higher end gear, or knowing a crafter who can meld materia, or whatever, because you will outgrow the gear faster than you'll make the money it takes to buy it. So just stick with the stuff you get out of dungeons.

Also, keep in mind that you do not need to be at stat cap while leveling. Even if you are slightly under-geared for a dungeon that's fine, so long as you use your CD's and don't tank more than you are able. The only time having gear at level cap is somewhat necessary is lvl 50 and 60. So until then I wouldn't worry so much.

Get gear from the MSQ, supplement with dungeon drops that have higher STR/VIT/Defense/Magic Defense.

Don't worry about speed pulling unless you have THM/BLM until lvl40ish where multiple classes have decent AOE. Even then you don't really need to.

Keep your left side up to date, every level which is a multiple of 5 is generally when you can go visit a crafter buddy and fill in any missing pieces.

At the start of a new dungeon, i would just quickly say "hey, first time here, let me know of anything specific to watch out for", and then pull with confidence.

I wouldn't bother with big pulls, but make sure you're not standing around forever in between pulls. Even if you're not doing big pulls, people will love you for having the confidence to start moving towards the next pull immediately after the last mob dies, or even when it's at 15%.

In lower level dungeons, people tend to be friendly and willing to go at a slower pace. Most people will understand you not wanting to pull big mobs since you don't have the gear for such a thing yet. What you're talking about mainly comes in the level 50 and 60 dungeons. That's where people tend to want bigger pulls. My advice, let your group know that you're not comfortable with big pulls. If they boot you for that, well, tank ques are always great. See it as them doing you a favor in not having to run with a shitty group. Once you get better gear, THEN you should practice bigger pulls if you want to do so.

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I keep hearing all these horror stories about groups kicking the tank because they only pull one group at a time.

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Personally I'd take it as a compliment if a bunch of douchbags kicked me. To be cursed by the devil is a blessing.

As far as complaining about pulling one group at a time, if it's anything like what I went through in WoW they so grossly outgear the content they can get away with being pricks, since they don't need you. I've never had players in crappy gear tell me they can solo dungeons/raids in crappy gear, so I know it's all BS. They're just legends in their own minds. Long story short, go your pace. They probably waited for you to queue up, not the other way around.

Thank you all again, I ran the first dungeon (Sastasha Seagrot) last night and it went very smooth. I over leveled it a bit and had to sync down.

Opening with 2x Overpower and 1x Flash, and cycling through my cool downs as needed made the dungeon a breeze. I think the healer was DPSing more than healing for most of the run.

Wanting to maximize as much as I can, does anyone have any suggestions on what cross class skills I could get that would increase my tanking (or damage while tanking) performance while leveling?

For example I was thinking about getting Second Wind from the PUG or Invigorate from LNC ...

for just increasing damage while leveling, I'd level pugilist until you get internal release. That's an ability you'll use all the time, even after hitting level 60.

You can get the other damage increasing cross class abilities from the other jobs if you want, but I wouldn't bother, as once you become a warrior at level 30, you can only take cross class skills from pugilist or gladiator anyhow.

You also likely will want to level Gladiator to at least 22 sooner than later for provoke. It's an absolute necessity at higher levels, and still pretty useful at the lower levels for those times you're grouped with dps who love to hit anything you're not hitting. (never happens!)

Make sure to get Raging Strikes (lvl 4) from Archer, only works when you're MRD/GLD but it's good to have while leveling.

If you're going WAR then there's 3 staple cross class abilities: Provoke, Internal Release and Convalescence. The other 2 slots you want to fill with 2 of the following depending on what you're running: Awareness, Second Wind, Mantra, and Flash. Mantra is the hardest to get and is largely optional, but for maximization of cross classes it's needed.

As for cross class skills I'd say internal release (because it's good and easy to get) and provoke because it's one of the best tanking skills in the game and their isn't a level range where it won't be useful.

As for dungeon pace I'd say just pull one set of mobs at a time, mass pulling is for when you out gear content (levels 50 and 60) Just don't hang around between pulls and I'm sure everyone will be fine with your pace for the most part, anyone who isn't is probably being unreasonable anywasy. During leveling it's worth noting that AoE damage isn't really that much of a bonus until your DPS get their AoE rotations anyway. Fire 2 is good on BLM for example but it's not until they get Flare at level 50 that their AoE DPS is anything to shout about so pullling big early on is just stressing you and your healer and not really speeding anything up.

Doing big pulls is rather pointless if the group is melee. You will just get hit longer and cause the healer to heal longer and harder instead of them being able to help dps. If you have a Summoner or BLM in group by all means pull big if your healer can handle it. But beyond that not worth it till later levels.

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Originally Posted by Kindread

Wanting to maximize as much as I can, [B]does anyone have any suggestions on what cross class skills I could get that would increase my tanking (or damage while tanking) performance while leveling?[/B

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As MRD, pick and choose from Convalescence, Internal Release, Second Wind, Provoke, Raging Strikes, Invigorate, Shade Shift. Blood for Blood is iffy; only take it when you know every encounter like the back of your hand. I never bothered with Flash. Overpower spam+Invigorate should ensure you keep aggro on mobs.

As WAR, your only real options are Internal Release and Second Wind from PUG; and Provoke, Convalescence, and Awareness from GLA. You may take Flash over Awareness before you get Raw Intuition if only to have a skill to use during Berserk pacification. After you get Raw Intuition, you always want Awareness.

This is gonna be a bit of TL;DR so bear with me as I hope this is a productive post for you as a new tank player.

Always play conservative as a learning Tank.
You always keep hearing about the meta and how top WARs are as much DPS machines as they are good tanks and about how people like to do humongous pulls in order to clear dungeons in 15-20 minutes. Well, the truth is that none of these tanks (the ones that are good at least) started by playing aggressively, they only did after they understood their class and knew well the encounter/dungeon before hand. You could ask any of the big names in Tanking now-a-days (like Xeno and Layla) and they will most definitely tell you that a tank starts by playing defensive and only start with aggressive tactics once they are familiar with their skills and the challenge ahead. Heck, if you view this MogTalk show where both Xeno and Layla speak, they actively stress this various times. So really, it's OK to play defensively all the way until 60 and then worry about optimizing later. If you run into an asshole in DF then tell them to screw off and vote-kick them, I can guarantee that chances are that you'll win the dispute as most people are more inclined to kick an annoying DPS or healer than a defensive tank. Heck, if you end up being kicked due to reasons (like a premade party) then screw it, you have super fast queues as a tank, you'll be back in a dungeon in less than 3 minutes.

Always level up via Dungeons
Dungeons are the best way to learn your class, avoid leveling via FATEs as much as possible. People might tell you about how it might be faster but going from 1-60 via Dungeons will make you a much better tank than leveling through FATEs.

Always upgrade your gear
This is insanely important as a Tank, there are various options for upgrading gear. You gain some from the MSQ and dungeons offer gear as you progress. But what happens when you get RNG screwed and/or the next few MSQ's don't offer a viable gear upgrade? Well you should be aware that every 5 levels there are buyable NPC bought gear, I do not recommend using the market board as from (my) experience they tend to have gear horrendously overpriced when compared to what you'd get from an NPC. Where can you buy gear upgrades in case you are falling behind level wise? Well here is a small list of places where you can buy upgraded gear (they coincide with levequests):
lvl 20-25: Quarrymill (This is a bar located near the Upper Path)
lvl 25-30: Quarrymill (The town itself)
lvl 30-35: Costa del Sol
lvl 35-40: Coerthas Central Highlands (Where you warp in)
lvl 40-45: Coerthas Central Highlands (Whitebrim Front - This is the fort on the north-west corner of the map)
lvl 45-50: Mor dhona
Always make upgrading your weapon the highest priority as the stat "Weapon Damage" is a huge modifier in your damage (helping a lot with enmity) as 1 point of Weapon Damage is roughly worth 10 points of Strength. Also remember to use the "compare equipment" sub-menu before upgrading (right click on the item) as Green items (or maybe pink) can have higher stats than shop gear of higher level.

Ignore the STR and VIT debate for now
In line with my first suggestion, this sort of stuff you worry when you are level 60 and working on becoming an exceptional tank. So it's OK to go full VIT for now and then later work on the vastly superior STR builds (and when I mean later I'm talking post-60).

What are the best cross skills?
The best cross skills for WAR are hands down...
Flash (lvl 8 Gladiator): Get this skills ASAP, this is insanely useful at low levels and remains useful all the way to level 60 as it gives you an extra source of AOE enmity and some use for your MP.
Convalescence (lvl 10 Gladiator): 20% extra heals? This skill is another awesome skill to have.
Provoke (lvl 22 Gladiator): A must for any tank, this allows you to tank swap on more difficult encounters and recover from mistakes easily in any fight (IE. you die or you miss a mob).
Internal Release (lvl 12 Monk): 10% Extra crit and on a short cooldown, why the heck not? It's an awesome skill.
Awareness (lvl 34 Gladiator): This skill makes you immune against critical hits, its direct usefulness in battle is questionable (aside from certain battles like Shiva) but it is amazing when combined with Raw Intuition. This skill is great but not really mandatory until Heavensward.
Second Wind (lvl 8 Monk):A self heal, nothing amazing but why not? This is mostly used in encounters where flash isn't necessary (IE. Trials). You just replace flash as the encounter requires it.

As you noticed an extremely important number of skills come from Gladiator so leveling them to 34 is kinda a must. Your Cross Skill should look something like...
Flash/Second Wind, Provoke, Convalescence, Internal Release, and Awareness (in that order, IMO).

There are no useless skills
One amazing thing is that Warriors do not have a useless skill in their toolset (some more situational than others, like Holmgang). A small thing to note is to always find someplace to use a skill you gained, if you're letting it sit on your hotbar with no use at all then chances are you could be doing better. Take Brutal Swing for instance, your stun skill, you might be inclined to only use it to stun enemies (which is fine) but what happens when you're fighting a small mob where stun is irrelevant? or a boss that is immune to stun to begin with? Why not use it? It is a DPS boost. Be creative as you experiment with warrior, don't be afraid of making mistakes. Try to fit every skill you get somewhere.

The path to excellence is full of failure
This is more of an advice you should consider once you hit 60 and are striving to become a better tank. As you get used to your tanks skills and your "safe" HP threshold you will make mistakes, don't let this discourage you as you might be humiliated a few times, namely with elitist players. Keep going and you'll be psyched when you're clearing content as a pro-WAR, with people are throwing coms at you left and right. You will fail and every failure is bound to make you a better player, as long as you learn something from said failure.

Once you hit lvl 60 and want to become a better tank I recommend Xeno's tanking guide as it is a great resource for improvement. But note that I recommend this once you're level 60 and beyond, so bookmark this and keep it for future reference, don't you dare try to become an aggressive tank from the go, you will fail horribly and look silly.

I hope this TL;DR was somewhat helpful.

Wow Merkava, that was exactly what I was hoping for, thank you!

I am going to focus on getting the cross class skills first, then go back to the MRD (whom is currently only level 22) and then continue.

I love tanking dungeons and take pride in doing the absolute best that I can, even if the content is simple I still like to push the limits, you've all helps so much, thank you!

Kindread, you are on my server so here is what I will do.

Send me a tell, my name is Kayle Naxos. If I am on I will make you some gear for your level and if you like answer any more specific questions that the wonderful post above me may not have covered.

It should help, I've been tanking in this game for almost 3 years now in every piece of content available from the lowest dungeon to the highest level raids.

Carstien, thank you so much for your offer of help!

Unfortunately the character I was logged in as was my character I had created just after release, which I no longer play. I am now on Behemoth.

I have been blown away from the overwhelmingly positive attitude from the community. I have run several more dungeons while leveling up my sub-classes and have had such a more positive experience that I had expected (coming from WoW for the past 6+years).