Job Quests...please make them mandatory

I just did a Praetorium run with a level 50 Pugilist...not Monk...Pugilist. They had nothing else leveled. I don't understand why aren't job quests mandatory at some point near 30-35...

They kind of are mandatory since some of the skills are job quest rewards not to mention there is gear and weapons that are job only

mind you does seem kind of odd they didn't go to the effort of getting there Job Crystal

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Originally Posted by Ageofwar

They kind of are mandatory since some of the skills are job quest rewards not to mention there is gear and weapons that are job only

mind you does seem kind of odd they didn't go to the effort of getting there Job Crystal

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That person might not even have known that jobs exist. In-game there is very little information about jobs, and nothing at all to indicate how important they are.
The quest that points you to your job-trainer is easy to miss or ignore, and then you never find out about jobs.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

That person might not even have known that jobs exist. In-game there is very little information about jobs, and nothing at all to indicate how important they are.
The quest that points you to your job-trainer is easy to miss or ignore, and then you never find out about jobs.

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Well they going to piss off alot of people between levels 50 to 60 since all the skill are linked to Job Crystal. I would think think they will cotton on that there is an issue when they get no new skills by level 55

Likely someone who doesn't do much questing to progress; maybe they do primarily through roulette. Already been stated but some abilities do require you to complete job quest to obtain.

I can't say those quest actually highlight you using the new skill. I know NIN has one or two that do.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

That person might not even have known that jobs exist. In-game there is very little information about jobs, and nothing at all to indicate how important they are.
The quest that points you to your job-trainer is easy to miss or ignore, and then you never find out about jobs.

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Did they seriously not ask any questions? I mean, they couldn't be THAT bad of a player to not notice that other people using the same weapons as them are called "Monks" instead of pugilist? Different icons in the party list? They had to have noticed at some point, and questioned why they were a pugilist instead of a monk, or just didn't care.

So...I'm sure you have nicely and politely told him that future groups would greatly appreciate if he could do his advancement to Monk by leveling a lancer to 15 and accepting the quest "Brother from another mother" in the pugilist guild of Ul'dah, right?

Well after some time thinking I just remembered one thing.

Quest 2 (2.0) in the MSQ forces you to visit class trainer. At level 30 that same trainer points you in the direction of Job trainer so they are quite hard to miss unless you are deliberately ignoring them (maybe doesn't want to level LNC?)

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Originally Posted by Ageofwar

At level 30 that same trainer points you in the direction of Job trainer so they are quite hard to miss unless you are deliberately ignoring them (maybe doesn't want to level LNC?)

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That's not quite correct.

Sometimes, the NPC that gives you the job quest is not the guild leader, but rather the receptionist. That's the case for monk, paladin, scholar and black mage. The person might simply not have noticed the quest popped up and thought he was done, since the guild leader didn't have anything left for him and that's where he expected further advancement, especially since you usually get the message:"The next Class quest becomes available from NPC at level YY". None such thing happens at 30 if I recall correctly.

Besides, even if he "did" notice the quest, he might be oblivious to the importance of jobs and thought he could just do that whenever. It's not like the game tells you every five levels:"You just missed out on another skill, sucker!"

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Originally Posted by Zojha

It's not like the game tells you every five levels:"You just missed out on another skill, sucker!"

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I guess it's just me that see them gold ! above people's head and gets the need to inverstigae them.

i could swear that the ACN guild leader gave me the SMN quest which once i was done gave me SCH after i could be wrong.

well after lvl 50 the quests are every 2 levels but i'm just spilting hairs.

SE should really display the skills as blacked out with a tooltip of quest required in the trats and ablities

Honestly.... do we really need MORE babysitting in this game? This whole game is very linear and obvious. The guy either doesn't care, hates quests, has no friends in the game, or is extremely ignorant. At least this way we get a good laugh out of it. I'd rather it be completely obvious that someone doesn't know what they're doing, as opposed to "boy, that monk is doing really poop damage"

I ran into the same twice this week in 50 dungeons. Both people did not know about jobs.

Also saw a level 60 archer while PVPing.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

That person might not even have known that jobs exist. In-game there is very little information about jobs, and nothing at all to indicate how important they are.
The quest that points you to your job-trainer is easy to miss or ignore, and then you never find out about jobs.

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This is completely untrue since upon completing your lv30 class quest, they should have seen a red quest marker atop their quest giver. Even if they had "thought" it was a lv35 that it would unlock, they still should have been able to look at it and see the requirement for lv15 in another class. The only way this makes sense that they didn't "know" is if they didn't know they had to go back and do class quests at all whenever they gained 5 levels, and instead relied on the fact that you can literally be carried through the game now.

It also doesn't make sense that they got all the way to the Praetorium since I'm sure at least a few players pointed out during Brayflox's Longstop and onward that he needs to get his job crystal. The only real explanation is that he FATE grinded outside of the absolutely necessary dungeons and then either didn't understand when people tried to inform him about the job system or simply didn't care.

How about this. Any gear that a lvl 50 can wear is job specific. No more pgl/mnk stuff. And allow our retainers to equip job stones

I actually have a few people in my FC who asked if they can stay as archer and not be a bard or stay as a lancer and not be a dragoon. I must say the game indeed does a poor job at explaining the job mechanic. I'm sure most people learn about the job system from the internet and not in game. Heck, they don't even tell you that you need to level another job to unlock the job crystal quest. Instead, you have to go online and look up wikis and stuff. This is not about "hand holding", this is about putting proper tutorial in the game.

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Originally Posted by Zavius_Firerave

Heck, they don't even tell you that you need to level another job to unlock the job crystal quest. Instead, you have to go online and look up wikis and stuff. This is not about "hand holding", this is about putting proper tutorial in the game.

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I learned in-game. You finish your last class quest, a job quest pop up nearby, if you don't yet fulfill the requirements when you click on it then it tells you that you need X class at Y level to process.
People who get into a muddle are usual ones who just ignore quest icons. Since I do every quest, I never needed to google which quests unlock aether currents in Heavensward and things like that.

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

Since I do every quest, I never needed to google which quests unlock aether currents in Heavensward and things like that.

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Heh. I confess, I had to look those up myself. In fact, I even looked up the job quests beforehand as well as the ones for the challenge log etc. I've never been a fan of questing in MMOs, since it always boils down to simple fetch/kill quests, usually with a good amount of walking involved. It's incredibly rare that you get more than one way to solve a quest or similar, so I tend to get bored by them.

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Originally Posted by ToniRomo

Also saw a level 60 archer while PVPing.

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PVP is different game - people do that for cross class skills and stuff. You can see classes in PVP often.

Oh, really?

Must have missed that.

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Originally Posted by Ageofwar

I guess it's just me that see them gold ! above people's head and gets the need to inverstigae them.

i could swear that the ACN guild leader gave me the SMN quest which once i was done gave me SCH after i could be wrong.

well after lvl 50 the quests are every 2 levels but i'm just spilting hairs.

SE should really display the skills as blacked out with a tooltip of quest required in the trats and ablities

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The icon is red if you haven't done the levels in the cross-class, though, and you don't see what class you need until you click on it. I think there should be a quest that is gold that explains the requirements a bit better. This game is a little vague with explaining the issue with quests you haven't hit the requirements for yet.

I remember ages ago the FC thought it would be fun to run CT as a full party of only classes. Just for the sake of a laugh and the bewilderment of the alliance. I say let them play as they like. If it was a tank or healer constantly making the party wipe than there would be a more pertinent issue, but there aren't too many DPS checks in the regular dungeons that someone running a class couldn't manage, especially teamed with an item-sync'd dps. Maybe they just really don't like the thought of having such a splendid feather in their headband and would rather idolize the old boxer. Or they're RP'ing.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

So...I'm sure you have nicely and politely told him that future groups would greatly appreciate if he could do his advancement to Monk by leveling a lancer to 15 and accepting the quest "Brother from another mother" in the pugilist guild of Ul'dah, right?

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I did actually share information. Well...aside from that passive-aggressive tone in your post. Thing is...they weren't communicating back, so there is no way to know how much they understood. Maybe they didn't speak english. This is why the game needs to make players to do the job quests or prevent people from joining higher level content on the base classes.

Agreed. I would have never known about jobs if a friend hadn't told me you could evolve your class via soul crystal.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

That person might not even have known that jobs exist. In-game there is very little information about jobs, and nothing at all to indicate how important they are.
The quest that points you to your job-trainer is easy to miss or ignore, and then you never find out about jobs.

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I guess if you pay no attention and just go blindly in to the game you can miss things. The game does a lot of "Hey..you can do this!" but they also expect you to read a bit.

The quests tell you the next one is at level 5, then 10..then 15. So you were told to come back every so many levels. After all that you come back, seeing golden ! over a NPC. At 30 you finally see the red !, click on it. It says you cannot accept this until you have your secondary class leveled.

After that it's up to you to either say "Okay..now I just move on" or ask a friend "What's lancer? I need it to unlock this quest" or even look it up on the internet. It is a thought process. The person who didn't have their job unlocked shouldn't be put down in a harsh way, but rather told that an advanced job waits for them.

They can't make it more obvious. Well..I guess if they used that paperclip guy that you would see in Word. Just pops up "I see you're trying to select this quest. What would you like to know? Would you like me to teleport you there? If you could please walk away from your computer..I'll level this for you. You go have a pint on me, you earned it!"

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Originally Posted by Leigaon

I guess if you pay no attention and just go blindly in to the game you can miss things. The game does a lot of "Hey..you can do this!" but they also expect you to read a bit.

The quests tell you the next one is at level 5, then 10..then 15. So you were told to come back every so many levels. After all that you come back, seeing golden ! over a NPC. At 30 you finally see the red !, click on it. It says you cannot accept this until you have your secondary class leveled.

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Actually it would probably be more like: See the red "!", think "Oh, I must not be high enough level yet" - because that is pretty much the only reason for quests being red until then - continue with your playing and forget all about it. It is not even obvious one can click on the red "!" to get more information.
(And the quests will only tell you to go back at level 5. After that it will not tell you to go back for the next one, you need to figure that out for yourself.)

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

Actually it would probably be more like: See the red "!", think "Oh, I must not be high enough level yet" - because that is pretty much the only reason for quests being red until then - continue with your playing and forget all about it. It is not even obvious one can click on the red "!" to get more information.
(And the quests will only tell you to go back at level 5. After that it will not tell you to go back for the next one, you need to figure that out for yourself.)

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I guess the struggle is real? There are two sides to every situation, and from there branch off to even more..it's all big "What If..." marvel scenario. Figuring out you have a quest waiting for you every 5 levels is not something that should require a ton of thought. If you are exploring it will happen naturally. Maybe the earlier ones do not tell you, if so I am wrong and it's just in the journal.

Still if you do the normal things that come in a MMO such as exploring by running around to seeing what this quest gives, talking with friends or FC \ LS members, if you have the internet you may read more about the game online. There are so many scenarios where you can gather information about this game compared to missing it. People love to chit chat. Heck even in dungeons if I see someone as a job I'll say "You'll love it when you're a Dragoon!" and they'll ask questions "When do I get that?" ..bam..now he knows...and we all can say that knowing is half the battle.

There are ways to find out, even then there are people who find out and do not put the job on. I had a Gladiator who was level 49 doing the guy with two shields trial. Basically told us that PLD wasn't that good and he does better as Gladiator. This game isn't too hard to figure out. 11..now that was a pain.

If you believe it to be too difficult for new people then make the suggestion on the forums. I feel they need to be social, 15 minutes talking with someone about this game who has played and you'll know about everything.

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Originally Posted by Leigaon

Still if you do the normal things that come in a MMO such as exploring by running around to seeing what this quest gives, talking with friends or FC \ LS members, if you have the internet you may read more about the game online. There are so many scenarios where you can gather information about this game compared to missing it. People love to chit chat. Heck even in dungeons if I see someone as a job I'll say "You'll love it when you're a Dragoon!" and they'll ask questions "When do I get that?" ..bam..now he knows...and we all can say that knowing is half the battle.

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One can learn it all, sure. But some people are just not going to read any guides unless they are forced to. And why should they? They surely expect the game itself to tell them what they need to know.
Me? I read guides, but I am under no illusion that everyone else does.

As for chit-chat I have not seen much of it in the game. Outside of my FC (and many people don't join any Free Company for a long time, if ever) I have seen very little chit-chat. Most dungeon runs I have been on have had practically no talking at all, and certainly no discussions of anything outside the dungeon itself.

As for linkshells - I know they exist, and that is all I know about them. Again they are not exactly something the game goes out of its way to teach you about.

For those who really want to learn and are willing to spend some time and energy on finding information there are plenty of resources where one can do so, no doubt about that.
But unless one actively seeks out the information (and lots of people won't) there are many things in the game that are very easy to miss, unless one just happens to stumble across them.

As an example, from checking some guide I see that one can unlock something called Treasure Hunting by doing a level 36 quest. I am currently level 44 and I have yet to come across that quest by just playing the game. I could of course go and look for it - but only because I know it exists, something I know only because I checked a (player-created) guide.

Interesting debate on both side of @Leigaon and @MistakeNot, but maybe I'm a little older and have been playing games for a lot longer, as much as I think things can always be clearer, I am siding @Leigaon over this one.

Every single red "!" tells you what is the criteria to unlock it. I can see someone over leveled the first 30 levels and went back to do their class quests, and therefore see no red "!". But that still doesn't explain why you would not click onto a red "!" later at a job quest.

Unless the job quest is not within the range of anywhere you will visit, the red "!" is very hard to miss even if you do very minor walking around, and if someone see that icon and choose not to click on reading, that is pretty ignorant by nature.

In a broader scheme, RPG is the sort of games that you do need to invest some time and resources, often outside of the game. Not everyone will do it, I understand, but consider this is an online game especially, where you will interact with people, I find it baffling people don't read some basic instructions, when your action will impact others. Again, it might be I'm from a different generation, but this kind of attitude, to me, is like walking into a wrong washroom and say "nobody told me", when the door clearly labeled otherwise.

In the grand scheme of things though, the amount of population that doesn't know about job quest is very tiny. You might have seen a few here and there lately due to the Christmas subscriptions of new players. In my four years of playing FFXIV, I never encountered a single player like that. So, is this a real issue? I personally don't think so.

Finally, yes @Leigaon... XI is not playable without the internet next to you :D

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Originally Posted by Sorata

Every single red "!" tells you what is the criteria to unlock it. I can see someone over leveled the first 30 levels and went back to do their class quests, and therefore see no red "!". But that still doesn't explain why you would not click onto a red "!" later at a job quest.

Unless the job quest is not within the range of anywhere you will visit, the red "!" is very hard to miss even if you do very minor walking around, and if someone see that icon and choose not to click on reading, that is pretty ignorant by nature.

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Sure, IF you click on the quest and try to take it, despite it being red, then you will see why you can't take it. That is actually a pretty big "if".
First of all it is not obvious that one can do that.
Secondly why would you click on it? For almost all other quests a red "!" merely indicates that you are not high enough level yet, and it is thus just a matter of time (and levelling) before they open up. Clicking on those is just a waste of time, and there is no real reason to believe that the job quests are any different.

Note:
I am not saying it is too hard to find information in the game, or even that anything needs to change - personally I do not mind having to do some exploration to find everything.
I am saying that people should not be surprised/outraged that other people have missed stuff - much of it is really not all that obvious.

As for reading instructions - you have never done any tech support I assume. To a first approximation nobody reads instructions. If they do it is only as a last resort when everything else has been tried without success.

Always found it amusing that people will play a game that requires Internet access yet won't use that same Internet access to do a simple surface level research on stuff. Especially in this day and age when information is so easy to find.

Anyways, I'm of the view that this game should be pushing Jobs as a mandatory thing. It can be done in the following ways:

1. Prevent players from being able to advance the MSQ at a certain point until they have a Job unlocked.
2. Adjust DF so that any content that's above level 30 (i.e. Brayflox and above) can only be queued for as a Job.

Don't get why SE even made it so you can still play as your base class post 30. I know Jobs were added on from 1.0 back where you only had 1-50 Classes, but with 2.0 they should've closed up the concept. Especially since they introduced SCH, a Healer Job with a DPS Base Class meaning you're forced to stay on the Job if you want to heal.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

As for chit-chat I have not seen much of it in the game. Outside of my FC (and many people don't join any Free Company for a long time, if ever) I have seen very little chit-chat. Most dungeon runs I have been on have had practically no talking at all, and certainly no discussions of anything outside the dungeon itself.

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Maybe there is a lack of conversation in the dungeon parties, since people are there to get things done. And some don't want to talk at all or can't, some do not have a USB keyboard. If you start the chitter chatter sometimes you get nothing, sometimes you get something that makes a boring run fun. Of course there is the occasional guy who gets upset because you don't finish it 30 seconds earlier so they can move on..but what can you?

Maybe there needs to be a lot more hand holding for those who don't wish to try to figure things out. Usually those are the ones who don't care enough. Not in a bad way, some people just want to do one thing. This game isn't made for that though.

Our FC is filled with new people now which is why I can only go so far into the whole they aren't informed enough. We have active conversations constantly about rotations for crafting, people asking how to start jobs, gear, main story line quests. One thing, people LOVE telling you what they know.

If anything this shows more that social interaction in a MMO should be encouraged. Not everyone wants a guide, not everyone wants to explore and find everything some just want to be hand held and told "You can do this..go here". Maybe the game doesn't tell you every bit of information, or maybe it does and it's just overlooked by people and it's in the "wrong" place.

Still in my years of playing a lot of what I learn is through exploration, communication and being so in love with the game I look up tid-bits online because I want to know more. Not everyone is like that. Then again if you try to cater to every single individual, that's just as bad too.

People get upset when you lock them out so I don't know about making things mandatory. In 1.0 you would have a linkspearl com to talk to people...we would get messages for them to come see them. Could bring that back, but we have to go only so far before the game is playing the game for them, they're just...there. A person playing should want to know more, be better and have the incentive to learn more and not be afraid to speak out if they feel uncomfortable or unsure. In return people need to be kinder to these new people who might have issues with optimal rotation, lack of job / gear iLV requirements.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

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I know what you're saying, but I can't simply accept that as an answer (in terms of not being obvious.) From a logical stand point, you're basically saying "because every quests before this one indicate I can't do this before I reached a certain level", then we should be safe to assume they know the concept of reaching a certain level will unlock some quests. In this case, after say, 5-10 levels why don't such person go back and check? Again, I'm not arguing if this is possible. Of course ANYTHING is possible, but in the context of saying that's not obvious, this is, for me, categorize as "even if we put a giant red balloon over every single thing with flashing lights, someone will miss something."

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

As for reading instructions - you have never done any tech support I assume. To a first approximation nobody reads instructions. If they do it is only as a last resort when everything else has been tried without success.

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Well you assumed wrong actually, I deal with that almost every day with both my job and with old parents. I said I'm baffled, not I don't understand why.

I think we are actually on the same page in terms of why these people are that way, you are just a better person in terms of just pointing out the reasons behind it whereas I made the conclusion that's a behavior of (generally) ignorant or at least not self aware.

Some people like to customize classes without job stones, although the applications are very limited (i.e. I've seen B4B on marauder in T10 after echo with BiS gear & the healers' permission)

However, I agree that it would be nice to make the job system more obvious to new players or mention in a tutorial of some sort. I've had to vote abandon on garuda more than once when we had level 45 members who still had no job stones. Lots of people queue brayflox NM with no idea there's a job system, and are happy if it's mentioned to them.

So why not make Praetorium contain a pre-requisite for your job stone and nothing else throughout the game? It would be easy enough for the game to identify whether or not a soul stone is in the slot.

It's a small gesture but it could ensure that players have all of their abilities.

I do agree with the OP, there are people who never think about returning to their job trainer on a regular basis. It's bad enough that healers don't have Swiftcast or that tanks don't have all of their defense boosts. For the players who cry out "DON'T HOLD MY HAND" -- it's not, it's a pre-requisitie, you already have it. This would force players to be cognizant of what they're missing and reduce the "GIT GUD" atmosphere. Will it kill it completely? No. But at least we'll know they can do more than L15 moves.

Not like a little "Google" wouldn't help. Knowing this is an MMO I want to be sure to know what I am doing to avoid being ostricized by some asshole tank or healer, I looked it up. When I became an asshole tank, I looked it up. Tons of information out there just gotta look for it

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Originally Posted by Jroche44

Not like a little "Google" wouldn't help. Knowing this is an MMO I want to be sure to know what I am doing to avoid being ostricized by some asshole tank or healer, I looked it up. When I became an asshole tank, I looked it up. Tons of information out there just gotta look for it

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We already know that there is lots of information out there for those who go looking for it.
Not everyone goes looking for it. Some don't want to. Others don't even know they can or should search the internet. For some this is their first MMO - they will not have any clue that looking things up might be a good idea.
Besides - if you need to Google things, then the game has done a poor job of providing that information. One should never have to look outside the game for information.