Love raiding on Astro, but it really draws the short end of the stick for dungeons

I am an Astro fan. I find it a ton of fun, Lightspeed and Synastry are awesome dual use skills that reward players for using them at the right times. It's simple single target DPS set with 2 potent can't miss long duration dots are perfect for easily adding some dps as you heal. I have a few solo heals in on Thordan on my AST, and although I am a SMN main and our raid team used a WHM/SCH combo, the WHM is welcome to switch to AST if he ever chooses, and if he ever left, we'd consider an AST for the slot. I like the job and respect it. But...man...I don't know how anyone with another healer leveled could ever run an ex dungeon with it without feeling a tad guilty. It's lowest AOE dps output combined with it having the least amount of dps uptime make it rough sledding. For any of the healers - here is the basic dungeon pull rotation:

1.) pre-pull mitigation prep
2.) At pull engage Cleric Stance applicable healing (regen, fairy etc.)
3.) DPS
4.) Let tank get to a low but safe level, use "catch-up" skill and get tank topped off, refresh regen
5.) Back to DPS
6.) Repeat steps 4 and 5 til mobs die, except down "catch-up" skill it's normal heal spells to do so.

SCH has by far the most DPS uptime in a dungeon. Adlo being stronger than Stoneskins at the beginning (and it can also get up a stoneskin too), and the fairy is the equivalent of a 200 potency regen that never needs casted. Additionally in dungeons I use EOS, and alternating pulls between Whispering Dawn and Fey Illumination - and you have by far the most single target healing while DPSing of the 3 healers. Which is good, as SCH DPS is generally 5x dots which all need time to be casted and do damage. In terms of overall AOE dmg output, SCH is tops when you are dealing with average or below average DPS - it needs the mobs to live for the dots to tick. Power groups, the WHM will pass it up with more instant damage.

WHM is next in terms of uptime. It's tools are basically a Div Seal/Regen for a 195 potency regen, and Asylum. The short CD on Divine Seal means you have it nearly every pull. Also of note the regen is 3 seconds longer than AST's - although AST does have some tools to extend it. The output is very high - Aero 3/Assize are amazing AOE DPS supplements to Holy. Plus, it is the only one of the 3 healers with a DPS buff, as Presence of Mind can be used for such. Additionally, Holy Spam has a mitigation component to it as it will stun over a few casts before it gives the mob full resistance to it, helping get an extra dps cast or two before healing is needed. Tetra is a perfectly fine catch-up, with Benediction if they drop lower than you anticipated.

Astro has Aspected Benefic healing for 140 over 18 seconds. Because of the longer CD and additional uses of Synastry, I usually am not using it to pump the regen. Bole can help here a bit. It also has Collective Unconscious which, for these purposes is inferior Asylum as it basically takes a GCD to get up, and then another skill to extend. Celestial Opposition does have a nice stun on it while extending something - but that's not as good as a stun on the dps spam skill. To be fair, Essential Dignity is the strongest catch-up skill that any job has, but using it for such purposes also gives your tank a heart attack - or makes them blow their hallowed/holmgang/LD because while in your head you had it under control, they didn't know that. For the damage output itself, it's just Gravity. That's it. Like a WHM without Aero2 and Assize. You can still do some damage while casting it, but you will always lag behind the other healers here. And unlike raids where buffs may make that up, they don't come close to making it up in a fast AOE situation.

So AST spends less time doing less damage. Toss in a few other minor annoyances (stoneskin longer cast time than adlo or WHM stoneskin, CU positioning, mana issues with aggressive Gravity use) and I find it unplayable in dungeons. Not that it's actually unplayable, obviously. You can certainly beat the dungeon safely while adding solid dps. But unplayable in that if you think about how much more and easier it is on another it's hard to justify running it on AST.

I don't really have any great ideas - perhaps make CO also extend dots like bane so an AST can Spread Combusts once a minute. But I hope something is done. AST is actually my favorite of the 3 healers, and I tend to mainly heal in dungeons. I'd love some tweaks that allow me to dungeon run with it as my job of choice.

It really isnt anywhere as bad as you think in dungeons.

Not using synastry to increase your hot potency while dpsing is actually a mistake. It needs to be done. You should be doing synastry>A.ben>A.Helios>CU>Time Dilation>Clerics>DPS. Its remarkably easy to keep tanks up with this. Obviously this can not be done on every pull, use this for the large pulls.

CU can take up to one GCD to get the regen up, but this seems to be because it hits on the global server dot timer, which is every 3 secs. This is an annoyance, but not really too bad.

Cards are also there to help with mitigation, but in dungeons increasing others dps can be important.

Also dont underestimate the strategic useage of celestial opposition during pulls. Being able to stun for 6secs when you really need it is a bit OP in large pulls.

Bit of a short response, but the three healers have different ways of doing things :).

EDIT. With WHM presense of mind, i think you need to consider Balance and Arrow from AST. Tied to rng, but it means WHM isnt the only one with a dps increase buff. Also AST in diurnal have a lower native cast time through Diurnal Sect.

You can also DPS for longer than usual thanks to Essential Dignity, which scales with the tank's HP. If they're having a heart attack, it's not my problem. I can DPS and heal at the same time for entire dungeons without even popping Synastry or Collective Unconscious. My DoTs and Gravity are enough to do the trick. The difference in DPS, if there is any in dungeon scenarios, is met with cards. I have all three healers and I run everything as AST, no guilt at all.

Also, most tanks I meet can't keep up with damage mitigation, don't pop any cooldowns and overpull, so most of the times I'm healing all the time. Even when I run as SCH. So there's also that.

While I feel its the weakest (slightly) of the 3 for dungeons, you're not giving it enough credit. I'm often top DPS for my DF dungeons. Don't be afraid to card yourself.

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Originally Posted by MidnightTundra

While I feel its the weakest (slightly) of the 3 for dungeons, you're not giving it enough credit. I'm often top DPS for my DF dungeons. Don't be afraid to card yourself.

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The times i have been met with really bad DF DPS and a have just given myself all the balances for gravity. O.o

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Originally Posted by Sidra

Adlo being stronger than Stoneskins at the beginning (and it can also get up a stoneskin too)

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Sect dance if you have the mana. Guess what is reliably stronger than Adlo and without a cast time.

Wow - that's actually a great idea that for some reason I had never even considered. Thank you. Not sure it swings the overall case, but good to know nonetheless and I will definitely use next time I am Astro-ing a dungeon.

A good post. As mentioned, stance dancing between pulls helps. My AST can DPS large pulls until mp becomes an issue, at which point I may be cut-out from DPSing the end of the pull or a portion of the following pull (This has much to do with timing of pulls vs Luminiferous Aether/the odd discardable Ewer).

I'm not a stickler for the difference in DPS overall, and you have to account for being able to throw a +20% Damage Dealt buff on a baws SMN in addition to your own DPS, or in situations where you're forced to be healing. What I would like though, would be for our DPS to be more involved/less boring.

I'm curious where that 20% buff comes from

One note about Diurnal Aspected Benefic that seems to get lost a lot. Diurnal Aspected Benefic gives you more output versus Regen over the same period of time. By the time you have to reapply Aspected Benefic, Regen would've only ticked for 900 potency versus 1,030 potency of Aspected Benefic. Keep in mind that the initial application of Aspected Benefic is 190 Potency (basically another Regen tick). While you do have to apply it more frequently, you'll also get more potency out too. That's the tradeoff between Regen and Aspected Benefic.

Meant the 10% from The Balance, which is all I go for in dungeons unless crap hits the fan (e.g if BRD stands in AoE and dies, I use Spire if it pops) with enhance being my preferred Royal Road for 4man content.

AST is terrible at AoE, but otherwise they are fine.

I actually prefer noct sect in dungeons, plenty of time to dps while the tank is shielded.

Don't forget the 5% reduced cast times and global cooldown when in Diurnal Sect, which affects both your heals and your dps. You can also have either 10% damage reduction on tank (this will further add to your own dps) or 10% damage increase on a dps member (comparable to the increase from PoM) almost the whole time. If you get Spear, use it to Extend for a doubled effect of a good card. MP or TP card go to Spread most of the time. With spread it's a 4 * 5% dps increase, which is roughly the same effect as 2 unbuffed dps increasing cards. No card is a waste so you should count in the almost continuous 10% buff from them.

AST does miss out on Aero III (170 potency increase per target over Holy), Asylum Assize (typed the wrong name) and Bane, but we do have a "Holy" which is 20% cheaper than a WHM's Holy. There shouldn't be any MP issues if LA and Lightspeed are utilized properly.

I think you also severely underestimate the power of Time Dilation. Throw it on the tank after all hots (Diurnal) and it will give 330 potency per tick for 15 seconds AND increased duration on whichever card buff you gave the tank. That's more powerful than Assize and PoM combined! It will basically let you dps the whole duration of a mass pull with a few ED's here and there and only requires 3 global cooldowns to set up.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

I think you also severely underestimate the power of Time Dilation. Throw it on the tank after all hots (Diurnal) and it will give 330 potency per tick for 15 seconds AND increased duration on whichever card buff you gave the tank. That's more powerful than Assize and PoM combined! It will basically let you dps the whole duration of a mass pull with a few ED's here and there and only requires 3 global cooldowns to set up.

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This post speaks truth. The difference between a great AST and an okay AST is the usage of CU and Time Dilation more than anything, really. Most people at least figure out Synastry/cards/LA+CO but then they forget the greatness that is TD. Only thing AST really suffers is having to pull cds together but, meh, just save Synastry and Lightspeed if you intend to save anything, they don't benefit that well from extension when it comes to dungeons.

While I totally agree with the use of Time Dilation, I think you overestimate the power of your cards and Gravity's MP Cost. Aero III is half the cost of Gravity and after 2~4 ticks, it becomes more powerful than Gravity or Holy depending on the pack size. You also discredit the sheer power of Assize.

It is a 300 AoE nuke that gives 1400~1500 MP back (essentially a free Holy) and it's oGCD. If a DPS is utilizing the full 30s of Balance on an AoE pull, that means the group sucks.

WHM also owns the Group MND buff so it's doing even more damage with its innate 30+ MND.

Also with the way Damage Reduction skills work in this game. If your PLD or DRK has Tank stance on, Bole's 10% isn't really 10%. It's more like 8% (0.8 ~Grit~ * 0.9 ~Bole~ == 0.72). If the tank throws up one of his own cooldowns, Bole gets worse.

Yeah AST works for dungeon runs but its nothing to get hype over. It's just more fun.

AST is garbage (relatively, of course) compared to WHM in dungeons but it's not like this should be news to anyone. If you have the gear and like efficiency, use WHM. If you would rather play AST and do less DPS, sure go for it, no one's gonna stone you for it.

I really don't think the devs care much for dungeon balance. MNK could have gotten plenty of dungeon love in 2.X without changing its raid balance, but nope, nothing. BLM was undeniably king, now SMN's king. NIN is still the worst for dungeons. PLD is for turtles. It's the way this game's designed, they just simply don't care.

Time Dilation is your friend on big pulls.

I don't usually have an issue dpsing with Gravity in CS as long as the tank has allowed a little time to stance dance buffs on them before the pull and they're capable of using cool-downs properly. There seems to be an increase of tanks that don't use CDs on pulls and it's a bit daunting at times but any healer worth their salt can still manage.

I basically keep my Jem Synergy spell on cooldown to make sure I have MP to spam Gravity up to about 60% of my mp (about 4 or 5 gravities) before reapplying all hots / health and go right back to it. If dps is really terrible and the tank is anti-cool downs I don't dps at all besides just applying dots because I will need my mp to keep the tank up (and I cry a little inside).

I use Synastry / stun generally on big pulls when the tank hovers around 50% and I need the boost. Benefic 2 procs pretty regularly and it crits quite a bit so I will use that before I even think to do anything else and I don't usually pop the Benedictionlustrate unless I really can't keep the tank up above 70%.

Cards are so random that I have to calculate all my mp usage and judge on the party skill within the first few pulls as though I'm never going to get an Ewer and I rarely see an issue with juggling my responsibilities. I rarely use the ewer card on myself as a result since I manage my MP pretty strictly unless dps has died and I had to raise them during boss fights due to mechanics.

AST single target DPS is pretty good in my opinion but the AOE dps is a bit mp heavy and hard to manage if you're not paying close attention to your mp bar / you miscalculated your cool-downs. It's pretty easy to tear hate off the tank if you try hard enough with dps, I will proudly say ;).

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Originally Posted by AzureFlare

This post speaks truth. The difference between a great AST and an okay AST is the usage of CU and Time Dilation more than anything, really. Most people at least figure out Synastry/cards/LA+CO but then they forget the greatness that is TD. Only thing AST really suffers is having to pull cds together but, meh, just save Synastry and Lightspeed if you intend to save anything, they don't benefit that well from extension when it comes to dungeons.

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Yep, for dungeon Time Dilation I tend to side for the healing HoT extensions since it leaves ample time for DPS. In Alex Savage I side on balance extension whenever possible.

Pulling cooldowns together isn't unique to AST in a sense. DRK is similar in that stacking regard. Post-50 skill buffs are behind having 100% Darkside stance and using Dark Mind to enhance key cooldowns. This is why when you see the subpar DRK in a dungeon that doesn't keep Darkside up all the time they are pretty much playing gimped and locking out their best skills that geneate aggro, damage, and more importantly to healers - self-heals.

I do agree aswell with op. As main healer i would prefer whm over ast all the time in dungeons. Especially the fact that ast doesnt have any aoe damage spell in lvl50 dungeons (besides blizzard 2) is totally not understandable for me. They could have make gravity lvl50 instead of lvl52 and it wouldnt be that bad as it is now.

If you going for a super pull in pharos hard for example and pull all mobs between first and second boss into a single wonderful 25 mobs clusterfuck imagine how much additional damage you can do besides holy with aero 3 and assize. Now put two summoners on it and you have your 17 minutes expert run. :o