precise touch vs innovation?

Just pondering on something since my cp is kind of low I find that most rotations require me to choose between a precise touch or an innovation for the BB closer (unless I get a tricks I can take).

Wondering at what point is a precise touch more powerful then an innovation in terms of overall quality progress?

To be honest, I really don't even use innovation unless I happen to have extra cp and happen to have an extra slot for my cross class skills.

Most people only use innovation at the end anyways. PT, however, can be used early to boost your stacks (bigger progress later and bigger BB). So I'd say PT takes priority if you have to choose.

PT equals 2 stacks of iq, innovation equals one. The only exception is when iq is at 11 stacks and not further boostable, thats when innovation is better.

I had something posted but it did not agree with the simulator at Rhoda Baker and Gordon Tyler's Crafting Simulator so I had to rethink it.

OK I rethought it. HT + an Innov-buffed BB is better than PT + BB without Innov -- if the HT suceeds.
If the HT fails, it's much worse. Once you factor in the odds of failing, the expected values are about the same, with a slight edge to PT.

If you are late in the craft, and you know that that PT followed by BB without Innov will get you the quality you need, I say cut your risk and go for it. Using the simulator to figure that out (while you craft) is one way to do that.

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Originally Posted by bigcd

Wondering at what point is a precise touch more powerful then an innovation in terms of overall quality progress?

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Innovation is for the ending. PT isn't. PT is simply for the purpose of building Inner stacks faster. The number of Inner stacks is turned into quality with the two finishers (GS + In) and BB. Since the actual amount of HQ% doesn't matter, Inn is wasted earlier on. HOWEVER! if I get a good close to an end, I'll turn it into CP if I lack the amount of CP needed or GS and BB.

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Originally Posted by Alisi

Innovation is for the ending. PT isn't. PT is simply for the purpose of building Inner stacks faster. The number of Inner stacks is turned into quality with the two finishers (GS + In) and BB. Since the actual amount of HQ% doesn't matter, Inn is wasted earlier on. HOWEVER! if I get a good close to an end, I'll turn it into CP if I lack the amount of CP needed or GS and BB.

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Well this kinda ;p i also realy use inovation a step before byregots to fish for a good/execelent in all other cases i'll likely choose precise touch, unless i think i dont have enough cp to finish then i'll pop a Trick of Trade

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Originally Posted by MariaNyan

PT equals 2 stacks of iq, innovation equals one. The only exception is when iq is at 11 stacks and not further boostable, thats when innovation is better.

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Nope.

PT = 2 stacks of IQ. 1 base, 1 bonus. Odds are you would have gotten the base IQ anyway, making PT really only worth 1 extra stack. Each stack is worth 20% of your base Control.
Innovation is worth 50% of your base Control.

Early on, PT is better because it will boost your subsequent Touches.
Towards the end, Innovation is better, especially when talking about in your BB Finisher.

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Originally Posted by bigcd

choose between a precise touch or an innovation

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That's not what you're choosing, though. Your choice is either:

Good Condition Hasty + Innovation vs Precise
or
ToT + Basic + Innovation vs Precise

In the end the difference between 1 more stack of IQ (and the extra quality in reaching in) vs and Innovation on your BB is small.

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Originally Posted by bigcd

Just pondering on something since my cp is kind of low I find that most rotations require me to choose between a precise touch or an innovation for the BB closer (unless I get a tricks I can take).

Wondering at what point is a precise touch more powerful then an innovation in terms of overall quality progress?

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It seems to me that you are asking the wrong question.

IMHO your question should be "How do I get more CPs without going broke?"

What started this line of thinking was I was looking at a good rotation for the 1 star stuff at my level, (can't quite do 2-star stuff yet)

Rotation I came up with is below. (Using one of Caimie's completion method with my own tinkering for quality.

http://i.imgur.com/c78qxfi.jpg

What got me thinking is at 10 stacks inno is required for full quality completion, but 11 stacks can fill quality without inno. But this rotation is also very RNG vulnerable, one 1 missed RS is 1 less HT, and 1 missed HT is one less stack. So this is where I started to ponder the merits of taking a PT early on or making sure I have enough to an inno powered closer.

And as far as more CP goes a lot of my gear is pretty heavily melded already, aside from my MH and OH, and they can only support 4 CP, plus as you can see still need to push base craft a little higher as well.

Looking at that, my question is, how close are you to knocking off that third CS2, Craftsmanship-wise?

If you are near that point, then getting some more Craft will help (replace a CS2 with HT).
If you are far from that point, then perhaps getting more Control will help you instead.

By the way ... I had close to 400 CP (at least 10 more than you do) with the i150 and Hallowed Chestnut stuff. I never put any Materia into my tools, just the gear, either. Your CP *is* lacking right now and should be improved upon.

It doesn't take a lot for 1 stars, I just finished off 3 full sets of relic items, ended up using a macro for the last 20 or so synths with near/full HQ ingredients.

This is 100% HQ for my stats, 796 Craft (overshot by quite a bit, need 187 from CSII and I was getting 200), 699 Control, 422 CP, starting with 3200+ Quality:

Code:

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/ac "Muscle Memory" <me> <wait.3>
/ac "Comfort Zone" <me> <wait.2>
/ac "Inner Quiet" <me> <wait.2>
/ac "Waste Not" <me> <wait.2>
/ac "Steady Hand II" <me> <wait.2>
/ac "Basic Touch" <me> <wait.3>
/ac "Basic Touch" <me> <wait.3>
/ac "Basic Touch" <me> <wait.3>
/ac "Basic Touch" <me> <wait.3>
/ac "Basic Touch" <me> <wait.3>
/ac "Master's Mend" <me> <wait.3>
/ac "Steady Hand II" <me> <wait.2>
/ac "Basic Touch" <me> <wait.3>
/ac "Great Strides" <me> <wait.2>
/ac "Innovation" <me> <wait.2>

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Code:

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/ac "Byregot's Brow" <me>
/ac "Ingenuity II" <me> <wait.3>
/ac "Byregot's Blessing" <me>
/ac "Ingenuity II" <me> <wait.3>
/ac "Careful Synthesis II" <me> <wait.3>
/ac "Careful Synthesis II" <me> <wait.3>
/ac "Careful Synthesis II" <me> <wait.3>
/ac "Careful Synthesis II" <me> <wait.3>

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Originally Posted by Natsuki

Well this kinda ;p i also realy use inovation a step before byregots to fish for a good/execelent in all other cases i'll likely choose precise touch, unless i think i dont have enough cp to finish then i'll pop a Trick of Trade

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I do GS + Inn + BB, in that order. In case I get a good after GS. I'll sacrifice the Inn for a good. XD

This is why we need numbers on our skills, Squeenix. Nobody has a clue what any of these things do or how they interact. Innovation doesn't specify anywhere that it's base only and not multiplicative. Inner Quiet doesn't give numbers at all. Neither does that CP restore one (it's useless outside of enabling emergency reclaims but it would still be nice to see the value per stack).

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Originally Posted by Callback

This is why we need numbers on our skills, Squeenix. Nobody has a clue what any of these things do or how they interact. Innovation doesn't specify anywhere that it's base only and not multiplicative. Inner Quiet doesn't give numbers at all. Neither does that CP restore one (it's useless outside of enabling emergency reclaims but it would still be nice to see the value per stack).

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While Innovation and Inner Quiet don't specifically state their exact boost, you can easily see it by looking at your control in the character menu when using them.

Innovation: +50% base control
Inner Quiet: +20% base control with each step (not including the "1" you get by using it)
Byregot's Blessing: +20% additive boost to quality given for each step of IQ, not including "1"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Callback

This is why we need numbers on our skills, Squeenix. Nobody has a clue what any of these things do or how they interact. ....

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That's not at all true. People experimented and figured it all out, just like scientists do with real-world unknowns. Then some nice people incorporated what they and others had learned into a Crafting Simulator that is well-regarded for it's accuracy.

Learn it and use it, and your crafting will blossom.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

That's not at all true. People experimented and figured it all out, just like scientists do with real-world unknowns. Then some nice people incorporated what they and others had learned into a Crafting Simulator that is well-regarded for it's accuracy.

Learn it and use it, and your crafting will blossom.

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"People will reverse engineer it from the results" or "People will datamine it" is not an excuse for hiding information from users. Also someone needs to add those numbers to the wikis because I never found them.

Likewise detailed explanations for things like snagging and the hooksets. Does snagging help with fishing for coral or is that just a rumor? Is it really weak tug=precision, or is that just player superstition? Tons of skills in this game with no detailed explanation or values given. Same for stats. We have some really bizarre estimates for crit formula which I doubt is true to the actual game's calculations. Same for skill/spellspeeds, parry, damage calculations, accuracy, etc. We deserve hard numbers.

Playing with the same simulator and your stats, here is an alternate rotation, which only requires you to use Stone Soup available for purchase in Gold Saucer.
http://i.imgur.com/9HestWd.png

As you can see, there is an additional, 22 CP left over, this allows you to substitute two Hasty Touches with Precise Touches along the way to protect against HT failure rate.
There is also enough completion to use ToTT in replacement of one of the FS.

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Originally Posted by Callback

"People will reverse engineer it from the results" or "People will datamine it" is not an excuse for hiding information from users. ... We deserve hard numbers.

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No, you don't.

First, no one promised you "hard numbers" when you bought the game, so there's no contractual obligation to provide them to you. Furthermore, most computer games not only don't give you the "hard numbers" but also alter those numbers when they see fit.

Second, discovering how things work, and using those discoveries to figure out how to accomplish stuff, is part of the fun of the game for a lot of players. And those players have made their discoveries known, as a little time searching the web would have revealed to you.

Last, real life is no different. There's no detailed manual. So get used to it.