Any Pld Tips for Thordan?

Have done this a few times now. Won once with the help friends; lost a lot more in PF.

I have a pretty good idea of how it works now, although I could still use a more work with the last third, but is there anything interesting/pld-specific anyone's picked up after running it for a long time that they think is worth sharing?

Also: I have no idea how people are doing this with 16k HP. I have a mixed vit/str set up for it and go in with 18k HP, and the first Heavenly Heel + Following Cleave has taken me down to ~2k more than once. Is that just a thing about PFf healers being too slow/not preemptively dealing with the cleave? Is it something on my end? I usually just use Rampart + Sheltron to deal with the first one, so I can have sentinel up for holy bladedance if I get the sword stance guy. I'd like to up my dps a bit for this fight, but if I had 16k hp, I'd totally have died several more times.

foresight can help you too for heavenly kneel, the fisrt one is one of the most dangerous because they use the huge frontal aoe after, thordan always use heavenly kneel in the same moment and phases so in part healers need know when leave you extra shields, and the one after fire phase (fire aoes + theters + shiva aoes + the huge frontal area from thordan) is the perfect one to use hallowed ground.

My usual Pld notes on the first 2 phases of Thordan Ex:

In most cases I start the fight with Fight or Flight + Bloodbath and Foresight rather than Rampart (which is my typical rotation because the CD's line up so nicely) because introductory mitigation is so light. After Quaga, I pop Rampart. The timer should last long enough to flow right through Heavenly Heel and the Cleave, and the cooldown time after the tank buster will ensure it is up again for use during the Knights phase. I save my Shelltron for when I actually see the cast bar, so I don't accidentally blow it on an auto attack (this is a rule of thumb for practically every use of Shelltron in this fight). Also, work with the healers. You should be capped before EVERY Tank buster in this fight.

*Note on Heavenly Heel: You can use Clemency to self heal the dmg of HH; however it is extremely difficult to get the timing down. You basically have to time the cast to go off immediately after the cast bar expires, but before the actual hit cancels your cast. It's like using the magic pixel. It's a exploit in the latency of the fight "tactic that works as intended" which allows the cast to go off, but it is VERY hard to do. It's easier to use Clemency (if you use it at all) to help with AoE raid healing. If so, coordinate with your healers. It's also noteworthy that it is not advisable to use Clemency in the first phase of the fight, because Pld enmity is shit.

**EDIT: For increased Dmg/Mitigation, Pld's can swap Oaths immediately after HH and the following Cleave. Switching to Sword Oath early also allows you to cast additional StoneSkins on yourself and 3 other party members before the the players get chained and fire puddles go off. This mitigates Chains, fire puddles (if someone is slow and gets hit by them) and can cover stretch mitigation as far as Sacred Cross if the chains are broken fast enough. It also means that, when the Sacred Cross knight comes out, the Pld will not have to waste a GCD on swapping Oaths and can immediately start attacking without losing any Dps.

For Blade Dances, there are a few options:

For the Sword Oath Blade dance I usually just nullify it with Hallowed Ground. It's mindless. An easy one and done button. It also allows me to drop Shield Oath without fear of increased dmg for those 10 seconds and increase output. You mentioned wanting to increase your Dps. This is an easy way to do it.

That being said, IF I drop ShO I make sure to pay attention to that HG timer. I nullified BD with HG, sure, but that doesn't mean that Holiest of Holy, the knights move that looks like Goring Blade, or the Dragoon jumps don't hurt. So once the HG timer expires I make sure to get my ass back in ShO or pop some extra mitigation.

*Note on HG: Sometimes It's worthwhile to save HG instead of burning it here. If, for example, your healers are struggling with a later phase because Dps are doing their typical thing and dying left right and centre, it might be worth it to not use HG here, and free up the healing somewhere else. I always ask what they want.

On the rare instances when they I don't want to use HG here, HIGH mitigation is essential. That means Sentinel + Foresight + Bulwark + Convalescence, OR Sentinel + Rampart + Convalescence. Either of these should be enough, depending on how good your healers are.

For Shield Oath Blade Dance, I'll use a strong def CD paired with a weak one. So, Sentinel (if it's up) with Bulwark + Convalescence, or Rampart + Foresight + Convalescence. This is usually enough, because any healer worth their salt will buff you with something before the Blade Dance goes off, and most healers will split tanks for dedicated healing.

*Notes on Bulwark/Shelltron and Clemency: It's important to remember that Holy Blade Dance is a multi-hit Tank buster. Meaning that Clemency is not really an option here. Even if you manage to time the cast perfectly to go off for the first hit of HBD, the second and third hits will make that healing irrelevant. Same goes for Shelltron. I pop Shelltron during every Tank buster cast bar in this fight, but it will only block the First hit of HBD. If you want to block multiple hits than you have to pray to RNGsus or use Bulwark to increase your odds.

**EDIT: This is another opportunity for an early Oath switch and StoneSkin application. The CD period is not as long as the first, so you will likely only have time to apply one StoneSkin before tethers and ice, but any mitigation is good mitigation, and you'll want to be in SwO early for Meteor Phase. Stone Skin only helps cover the loss of ShO's defensive buff. So swap Oath quickly before final knight dies, and cast a StoneSkin as soon as you stack in the middle.

@februs pardon me good sir, but I prefer to call the clemency delay a tactic working as intended, not an exploit. :p

If you have the clemency timing down, you could pop it for the first hit of HBD (with rampart), sheltron the next and have rampart for the third. This basically makes HBD hit you twice, not 3 times as the heal nearly negates the first hit.

I like to Divine Veil after Dragon's fury before quaga, at least my healers seem to like it :)

I don't know why I didn't think of trying to use clemency well. I kind of feel like an idiot. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich

@februs pardon me good sir, but I prefer to call the clemency delay a tactic working as intended, not an exploit. :p

If you have the clemency timing down, you could pop it for the first hit of HBD (with rampart), sheltron the next and have rampart for the third. This basically makes HBD hit you twice, not 3 times as the heal nearly negates the first hit.

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LOL. Indeed. I will edit accordingly lol.

That's true. Clemency can be used to completely negate the first hit of HBD, but it is extremely difficult to time correctly, and you have to pop Rampart in advance to ensure you have enough time to complete the cast before you get interrupted. It's a tricky advanced Pld tactic, and I only advise doing it on the Shield Oath Blade Dance, because it's wasted Dps potency on the Sword Oath Blade Dance. Still, if you can get the timing down, your healers will love you forever if you can successfully do this for each Shield Oath Blade Dance.

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Originally Posted by Astrelle_hyperion

I like to Divine Veil after Dragon's fury before quaga, at least my healers seem to like it :)

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The problem I have with Divine Veil is that it's difficult to know when is the best time to use it. You can time it well for the Quaga's or you can save it for Sacred Cross, or you can save it to ease the comet damage during Meteors... There are just so many options!!! lol

Sadly, the long CD timer does not allow you to take advantage of Divine Veil for all of them, and the most efficient use is to use it like you are, early in the fight, so you get another cast of it later on, but it depends on where your group is having the most difficulty. Quaga is not difficult for healers to mitigate as it is, so sometimes I find it's best to save Veil for a more troublesome phase of the fight like Meteors. Where the dmg can get a little more intense.

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Originally Posted by Melian

I don't know why I didn't think of trying to use clemency well. I kind of feel like an idiot. Thanks.

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Don't even worry about it lol.

Most people forget about Clemency at the best of times because they assume it will be interrupted every single cast. The truth is, though, that the hit you take has to reach a certain Dmg threshold before it will cause an interrupt (at the moment I can't remember what that threshold is), so most attacks outside of Cleaves and Tank Busters will not interrupt the cast. It's worth playing around with, and it can completely change the battle if you learn to use it effectively.

There are 2 things you should keep in mind though:

The first is that for every cast of Clemency you are dealing 0 DPS. Meaning every single cast of Clemency is a Dmg nerf. If your main concern is boosting your Dps, this is not the way to do it.

The second is that the way that Alex and I are talking about using Clemency is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to time correctly. Without a lot of practice, you'll probably get interrupted. You have to time it perfectly, and it requires actually sitting there, counting the seconds it takes for the Tank Buster cast bar to go off. This was easier in fights like T9 when the debuff timer for Ravens Ascent allowed you to get an exact number on when to start the cast (back then Pld's used Stoneskin in a similar fashion to Clemency here). For this fight, if you chose to do this, you'll have better luck learning how to time your casts by using the DoT timers to keep accurate track of the time. By comparison, it's a lot easier to use Clemency for AoE dmg like Quaga or Holiest of Holy, etc.

I should also note that Stoneskin should be used judiciously during cooldown phases as well. I forgot to mention that. After Thordan leaves the arena, for example, you have ample time to cast up to 3 (4 if you changed Oaths early, after the HH+Cleave) Stone skins. Meaning you can buff yourself 2 or 3 other people (usually healers and the OT, or you can gamble and try to get the Dps you'll be chained to) early for Chains + Sacred Cross (if chains break early enough). You also have enough time to buff yourself with a Stoneskin just before meteor phase.

I tend to use clemency during the heal after sacred cross... there's nothing else to do, so no damage lost.

I like DV during the fury/ quaga one because 1) as you say its early in the fight so can probably use it again. 2) the party is clustered close enough and the healers are already doing a heal that will trigger it, without having to watch for it, 3) while they can heal through it, enough damage is going out to use up the shield, so might as well take advantage of that.

As Februs stated, the use of clemency as a tool for actively mitigating damage is difficult and requires precise timing. You will want to practice this cast when you\\'re other buffs are up. You also want to let your healers know what is going on.

You must also accept this method is a trade off of your dps for 1 gcd for very potent (4k to 7kish) damage mitigation. Accept this and move on, Thordan is not a dps strict fight. Imo, if you are tremendously hung up on the loss of 1 gcd for that kind of massive active mitigation you may be tanking with the wrong class. Relish in the opportunity to be a tanky tank.

With the breaks in this fight there are many other uses for clemency. Take advantage!

I like DV before meteors (technically at the start of ice/tethers). Personal preference really.

The thing I haven't tried yet (because this thread made me think of it): can clemency reach your other tank if you are holding the two adds just outside of tether range? If anyone steps into this fight in the next day or so, please try this out. Cuz if it does, that would be sexy!

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Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich

The thing I haven't tried yet (because this thread made me think of it): can clemency reach your other tank if you are holding the two adds just outside of tether range? If anyone steps into this fight in the next day or so, please try this out. Cuz if it does, that would be sexy!

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Anyone feel free to correct me here, but I think the tether range is about 25y. Clemency's is 30y, so it should reach.

That would be sexy.

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Originally Posted by Februs

On the rare instances when they I don't want to use HG here, HIGH mitigation is essential. That means Sentinel + Foresight + Bulwark + Convalescence, OR Sentinel + Rampart + Convalescence. Either of these should be enough, depending on how good your healers are.

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You shouldn't need to stack that many cd's to mitigate that even if the knight is in Sword Oath. I take it with Sentinel or Sentinel + Foresight if they have Battle Fever. I tend to save Hallowed Ground for KotR5, so the healers can focus on healing the party through the AoE damage. If DPS is good enough to kill it before that consistently, I'll use it on the Sword Oath Holy Bladedance instead.

@OP - I honestly don't even try to push DPS in Thordan EX beyond what I feel I can safely do. I use my melded accessories because I just don't feel comfortable in full Slaying. Heavenly Heel followed by the cleave has killed me way too many times with 16k hp. What I try to do is make myself as easy to heal as possible so the healers can concentrate on keeping the DPS and the OT on their feet. The only real time I spend in Sword Oath in this fight is the first time Zephirin is out and during the Meteor phase.

I use Rampart + Sheltron for every Heavenly Heel except one. I use Sentinel for the one after KotR3 because I want Rampart for a bit later on. When I know a Heavenly Heel is coming up I also make sure the RoH debuff is on the boss. Any time Adelphel is in Sword Oath, I keep the debuff up on him too. You can catch a lot of the frontal cleaves in the fight with Sheltron by popping it in your opener, when the first Dragon's Gaze is casting, and at other times like when Adelphel/Janeloux are casting Divine Right (it will then trigger on Heavenly Slash) and when your party gets knocked back into Dragon's Rage (he will cleave immediately when he gets back to you). It takes some finagling with the timing, but it's nice to put a dent in that cleave damage. Sheltron also works if you have a tether right before the meteor phase, but that's kinda for giggles because realistically the tether does laughable damage to you.

Divine Veil I use at Ultimate End and for the Quagga/Heel/Quagga combo between KotR 4 and 5. Rampart during the cast for the first Quagga, Sheltron + Divine Veil for the Heel since I know I'm going to get topped off after that anyway, then the party is mitigated for the second Quagga. The only time I really use Clemency is after the first Sacred Cross, because at that point there's zero chance of getting interrupted. I admittedly probably don't use this skill enough simply because it does get interrupted so easily if you mistime it.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

You shouldn't need to stack that many cd's to mitigate that even if the knight is in Sword Oath. I take it with Sentinel or Sentinel + Foresight if they have Battle Fever. I tend to save Hallowed Ground for KotR5, so the healers can focus on healing the party through the AoE damage. If DPS is good enough to kill it before that consistently, I'll use it on the Sword Oath Holy Bladedance instead.

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Very true, but what you should be doing and what you end up having to do aren't always the same thing.

If you're running with a static group that you trust, then yes, the mitigation I mentioned is overkill. If you're running with the monkey's in PF, however, chances are you're going to need to mitigate more dmg. I've seen too many battle fevers, dps standing in stupid, or healers who refuse to top me off or buff me to trust that one Def CD will do the trick. Unless the healer proves to me they can handle it, I always err on the side of caution.

I also prefer to save HG for KotR 5, but, sadly, it's a rare day when I see a PF healer who is comfortable with that method. Even if they keep me up for SwO HBD, the question I typically get after is if I would mind using HG instead of Sentinel/Fracture/Bulwark.

If you are PF'ing a lot, having 20k with cheap food will help solve a lot of headaches and you'll be free to use your cd's more to your advantage. That way you negate reactionary healers and dps that takes uneccessary damage (allow healers to spot heal them in situations rather then one of you possibly dying). I find having more hp really makes the fight easier for everyone even if you're with a static just because of the few situations where you really spike and chaos maybe happening at the same time. I personally find my health spikes more in this fight than A1S through A3S which I wear all Str accessories except a ring.

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Originally Posted by Melian

Also: I have no idea how people are doing this with 16k HP. I have a mixed vit/str set up for it and go in with 18k HP, and the first Heavenly Heel + Following Cleave has taken me down to ~2k more than once. Is that just a thing about PFf healers being too slow/not preemptively dealing with the cleave? Is it something on my end? I usually just use Rampart + Sheltron to deal with the first one, so I can have sentinel up for holy bladedance if I get the sword stance guy. I'd like to up my dps a bit for this fight, but if I had 16k hp, I'd totally have died several more times.

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I've only been to the Spear phase on my PLD, but...

For the first Heavenly Heel and Cleave, I simply Stoneskin and Sheltron. If I can't get Stoneskin, it's any other defensive buff that's ready, such as Foresight, Rampart, or Sentinel.

For Holy Bladedance, I mainly only use two Defensive buffs so I can have another up for after Bladedance ends. My PLD has 17k with 4/5 STR accessories when the group asked me to drop my VIT gear (since those accessories put me at 21k HP) for STR stuff (although I really hate it). Most hate my play style, so I don't bother trying to up my dps as a PLD, especially after I joined the group as NIN but we couldn't get that last tank.