Are Relic and Diadum anti-raiding tools?

WARNING: This is a very long post.

I want to start off by explaining that I personally found Turns 1, 4-7, and 9-13 to be extremely satisfying raids. I also really do enjoy AS1, and the only reason I dislike AS2 is because of enemy collision. The static I am currently in has just cleared AS2 and beginning ThEX instead of AS3. I love raiding in this game and find it very satisfying.

I am going to propose a theory stating that Yoshi P. and Co. are coming up with these extremely easy to-do, yet very time consuming, pieces of content for the sole purpose of not wanting to create anymore innovative raiding content.

Theory
What effect has the Diadum and the Relic Weapon have on the raiding community?

Hypothesis
The Relic Weapon and Diadum content are designed with the sole purpose to divert player base attention away from current raiding tier due to poor raiding design and gear progression.

Experimentation
Over the past couple of weeks I have been watching PF and what kind of content that that a lot of players on Leviathan have been doing. Weeks before the the Diadum was released, most of PF was filled with AS1 and AS2 weekly clear parties, and a 2 weeks most players were doing AS1 and AS2 clear parties, ThEX up to meteor, clear, or farm parties, players running Diadum, pony farms, and a few statics selling content runs.

After the release of Diadum, many players have were using it as a means to gather top end gear. Also, after the release of the relic a large majority of the player base in PF are running FATE parties, Ice Cluster parties, or Alex grinding parties. There are a few AS1 and AS2 weekly clears (few and far between, and rarely filling).

As it seems, right now, Diadum and Relic either brought many players back into the game, or have diverted the attention of current player base to run the content instead of the current raid tier.

Observation
Even though the Relic Weapon and Diadum have revitalized the game a bit, by either having subbed players bit into the new content or bringing back unsubbed players, it is evident that more players are choosing to run Diadem and the Relic Weapon (and VA) over the current raiding tier.

Conclusion
Why is this a problem that players are choosing to run Diadum and Relic over current raid tier? Because the gear received from these piece of content, for most classes, are better than what you can get from the most difficult raiding content. Players will choose to run this content in favor of the current raiding tier because it gives the best rewards possible. Because they give the best rewards, and they are by far easier to complete, albiet might take much more time, would give the impression to the developers that this is the favored content and that they should continue to produce content such as the Relic Weapon and Diadum. Many players that would otherwise run raiding content if development time was shifted from content like Lord of Verminion, Diadum, and the Relic Weapon, and placed into further balancing raiding content would revitalize the raiding community, and possibly get more players to raiding then currently are.

Let's take a look small look at the progression of gearing throughout the cycle of 3.0-3.15. (assumption this will stay roughly the same to patch 3.2.)

Trends from patch 3.0:
Dungeon set 1 - ilvl 160 gear;
Bismark EX - ilvl 175 weapons;
Alexander Normal - ilvl 190 gear;
Ravana EX - ilvl 190 weapons.
Eso gear - ilvl 200 gear + weapons
BiS as of patch 3.05: Eso weapon and Alex normal gear.

Trends from patch 3.05:
Eso gear - ilvl 210 gear + weapons
Alexander Savage - ilvl 210 gear + weapons.
BiS as of patch 3.05: Mixture between ilvl 210 Gordian and 210 Eso.

Trends from patch 3.1:
Dungeon set 2 - ilvl 185
Void Ark - ilvl 200
The Diadum - ilvl 150, 180, and 210
Thoridan Extreme - ilvl 205 weapons
BiS as of patch 3.1: Eso 210 or Gordian Weapon and full 210 Diadum gear.

Trends from patch 3.15:
Relic weapon - ilvl 170, 200, and 210
BiS as of patch 3.15: Relic/Gordian Weapon and 210 Diadum gear.

What we are seeing here is that as current raid tier continues, the items from both raiding and Eso get worse and worse (Gordian Weapons are still BiS for some classes). In most games with a dedicated raiding scene, the gear you get from the raids are usually BiS and gear obtained from other sourceses tend to pale in comparisons. FFXIV is the only MMORPG I have played that seems to devalue raiding gear. I propose a solution to the developers for the next tier of raiding so as to reward players those would prefer to do content such as Diadum AND reward players that would like to run current raiding tiers. And, also, allow content like Diadum, Hunts, Tome gear, and Relics to be useful during a raiding cycle.

First, design the itemization towards raiding gearing having BiS. The developers should know the stat weights for each class.

Second, have a proper vertical progression (this is null and void if they are trying to introduce horizontal progression). An example as follows:

Trends for 3.20:
Dungeon set 3 - ilvl 215 gear and weapons
First EX Primal - ilvl 225 weapons
New Tome gear - ilvl 250, no weapons
Relic upgrade - ilvl 220
BiS as of patch 3.20: Relic Weapon and Mixture of eso/tome gear

Trends for 3.21:
Void Ark 2 - ilvl 225 left side
Relic Weapon upgrade - ilvl 235
Alexander Normal 2 Wing 1 - ilvl 250 gear and weapons
Second EX Primal - ilvl 250 weapons
BiS as of patch 3.21 - EX Primal/Alexander weapon and Tome/Alexander Normal 2 gear

Trends for 3.25:
Relic Weapon upgrade - ilvl 260 (customizable Secondary stats)
Alexander Normal 2 Wing 2 - ilvl 250 gear and weapons (different itemization to A2W1)
BiS as of Patch 3.25 - Relic Weapon and Eso/A2W2 or W1 gear

Trends for 3.3[/I]:
Relic Weapon upgrade - ilvl 265
Tome gear upgrades - ilvl 265
Alexander Savage 2 Wing 1 - ilvl 270 gear and ilvl 275 weapons
BiS as of patch 3.3: AS2W1 Weapons, armor and accessories

Trends for 3.31:
Dungeon set 4 - ilvl 245 weapons, armor and accessories
Relic Weapon upgrade - ilvl 270
Third EX Primal - ilvl 270 Weapon
BiS as of patch 3.31 - AS2W1 Weapon and armor and accessories

Trends for 3.35:
Relic Weapon upgrade - ilvl 280
Alexander Savage 2 Wing 2 - ilvl 285 weapon and ilvl 280 armor and accessories
BiS as of patch 3.35: AS2W2 Weapons, armor and accessories

Trends for 3.4:
Relic Weapon upgrade - ilvl 290
Etc…

So, what is the difference between my proposed 3.2 - 3.4 patch cycle in comparison to 3.0 - 3.2?

Void Ark Raid, Dungeons, Primals, and Relic Upgrades

These specific pieces of content are the first things to be released. These are designed to help and prepare the player base for the upcoming raiding cycle. Fights can have sprinkled mechanics that will be found inside of Alex 2 Normal and Alex 2 Savage. The gear, especially the weapons, will be poorly itemized to help give emphasis to the relic weapons. It would be possible to do the upcoming raiding cycle with the gear, but having a complete Relic will help out much more. Also, for each patch, the Relic weapon will be the BiS to start out with, but eventually will be over shadowed by Primal or Alex weapons.

Alexander Normal and Savage
From patch 3.2 - 3.3 Relic weapons and tome/VA/other armor and accessories will be BiS. During the actual raiding cycle, Alexander Normal and Savage will contain BiS equipment. This guarantees that the actual raiding cycle will be relevant for longer periods of time. Come patch 3.4, if you have complete all of AS2W2 you will be better off than most. The step to upgrade Relic in 3.4 will make it BiS, but you must first complete the step.

Wings? One thing that is a bit disappointing about raiding in FFXIV is the lack of fights. Yes, there are Primal fights and the fights we do get are very challenging, but they are not so more than challenging than any other difficult raiding content found in other mmos. As many have mentioned, difficult content is one thing, having extremely strict DPS checks is another. The more boss encounters we have, and the more we can clear, the better the longevity is for the raiding cycle.

Differences between Normal and Savage? Normal mode wouldn't be our "story mode with equipment to grind." They can introduce an easy to beat story-mode but it needs to not include obtainable gear. Alexander Normal mode needs to present some sort of challenge and progression that most mediocre statics can clear. Savage on the other hand would really be no different then what we have seen with SCoB savage and Alexander Savage and truly test our patience.

After all has been said and done?
So, how does all this work into my theory that the devs want to avoid making innovating raiding content? As you can see with my proposed patch cycle for 3.2 - 3.4 this would require much of the development time to going into raiding and boss fighting. Not too much attention would be given to PvP, crafting, housing, or additional content. There is a lot of content here to digest, upgradable relic throughout each minor and major patch, three new Primals, new raiding tier, new 24 man, 4 (maybe 6?) new dungeons, and an additional raiding wing. That is a lot of development time. Although, when looking at past cycles, this only adds 1, maybe 2, additional pieces of content. The reason I do not see much of an issue with this, though, is because FFXIV is one of the most popular and populated MMORPGs on the market to this date. For the development team to skimp on content and rest on their laurels is insulting to the entire community, and not just the raiding community. We should demand the devs to continue to put as much effort into making playable and balanced content that simply doesn't override each other. I hope in the next upcoming cycle of patches that they find a happy medium and proper progression for their player base.

TL;DR: Content like Diadum and the Relic Weapon need to be used and tools for progression for end game content, and not be a means-to-an-end in themselves. The items can be good and useful, just not BiS.

I don't raid, so my opinion might be moot, but I want to and if I did, I don't think it would deter me personally. Diadum, no interest what so ever. Relic, once you get your weekly loot from the raid, can work on that if you'd wish, at least thats what I'd see myself doing, on non raid days, work on relic. From what I've read about A4S, it might be easier to get that 210 relic for now, then progress until the clears start rolling in.

I don't care what anyone says. Savage is far more entertaining then diadem and relic.

If I'm gonna run Alexander 800 plus times it may as well be productive savage progression. I'm sure I could clear Savage 4 before wiping 800 times.

The only anti raid took that's out there is a3s

This is called a catch up patch. They've had every other major patch be a catch up patch since forever.

Top-tier raiders get a couple months with BiS, then equivalent (potentially better, potentially worse, depending on gear slot) gear gets released with a heavy grind requirement to allow people who hadn't cleared, or hadn't cared to clear, to catch up before the next raid tier drops. In this way, new players who just reach max level are never left too far behind to catch up and begin raiding if they care to.

There's a salient argument to be had that Diadem breaks this a bit because you have the potential of every gear slot being better than raid gear just doing that, as opposed to the mix and match of earlier catch up patches--but that's a different discussion than the one you're trying to have, so.

I tend to keep clear of savage/extreme content due to the community being quite hostile, this also might contribute to non-raid content being favored more over raid content.

No, they just over-tuned Savage because they didn't like how quickly FCOB was cleared, resulting in some of the lowest end-game raid participation the game's ever seen.

Yoshi-P has said in an interview or two that the next Alexander section likely won't be as difficult.

Id say no.

Firstly, the anima/relic is very much like the old Zodiak during 2.x. I found the 'Atma' step mild compared to the original and the final step is in no way harder than the forging of the Zodiak step was originally. I wonder if people add up how many dungeons they had to run for their 12 Zodiak items originally what it added up to. That's ignoring the GC seal, gil and poetics cost. If the old relic didn't kill raiding then the new one isn't going to. Its more likely the issue is with the raid itself.

Secondly, In many ways the anima/relic is for people who play but don't go for cutting edge content. Its an investment in time vs money. Its actually far quicker and cheaper for raiders to get there gear from raids than from Anima/relic questlines. Alexander Savage only breaks this because its difficulty level is rather high for most to reach.

Finally, Diadem did have some issues with rewards which is why they nerfed it. Personally I don't think it should have dropped 210 gear but I guess they wanted to make it have something rewarding for raiders who do it. In 3.2 that will probably become Tier 5 Materia as all Raiders will be looking for it. Diadem is supposed to be 'open world' group content that isn't as heavily structured as raids. Its not supposed to replace them and anyone doing that isn't going to find the same enjoyment they get out of raids in the Diadem.

Simply put, I think the problem with the raid scene at the moment is the current raid itself rather than the additional content out there.

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Originally Posted by xvshanevx

Conclusion
Why is this a problem that players are choosing to run Diadum and Relic over current raid tier? Because the gear received from these piece of content, for most classes, are better than what you can get from the most difficult raiding content. Players will choose to run this content in favor of the current raiding tier because it gives the best rewards possible. Because they give the best rewards, and they are by far easier to complete, albiet might take much more time, would give the impression to the developers that this is the favored content and that they should continue to produce content such as the Relic Weapon and Diadum. Many players that would otherwise run raiding content if development time was shifted from content like Lord of Verminion, Diadum, and the Relic Weapon, and placed into further balancing raiding content would revitalize the raiding community, and possibly get more players to raiding then currently are.

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Real raiders raid for the challenge of the fight and the satisfaction of completing it. They do not raid to have the best gear. A real raider views gear as a tool to accomplish their task. It is a means to an end, not the end itself. If you're raiding for the goal of some tangible reward then you are doing it wrong. Any reward, be it functional or cosmetic, is there as a bonus to make your life easier the next time you run that raid. That's it's only purpose in existence. Real raiders strive to meet a challenge. To overcome an obstacle that most people can't or won't. Even if beating it gave absolutely no reward, the real raider basks in the satisfaction that he/she has grown as a player to a level beyond most, and then dives headfirst into the next fray.

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Originally Posted by Velox

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Say what you will, I'm deep in to Alex Savage for that goofy mount. I MUST HAVE IT!!!

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Originally Posted by Velox

Real raiders raid for the challenge of the fight and the satisfaction of completing it. They do not raid to have the best gear. A real raider views gear as a tool to accomplish their task. It is a means to an end, not the end itself. If you're raiding for the goal of some tangible reward then you are doing it wrong. Any reward, be it functional or cosmetic, is there as a bonus to make your life easier the next time you run that raid. That's it's only purpose in existence. Real raiders strive to meet a challenge. To overcome an obstacle that most people can't or won't. Even if beating it gave absolutely no reward, the real raider basks in the satisfaction that he/she has grown as a player to a level beyond most, and then dives headfirst into the next fray.

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I'm sure this sounded cool in your head, but if you were to take away all of the rewards from savage Alex except the satisfaction of clearing it there wouldn't be anyone running it at all

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Originally Posted by Krylo

This is called a catch up patch.

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I've been playing since 2.1, and I know about these catch up patches. And what I would like to see is for there not to be any catch up patches. I mean, think about how awesome it would've been to have had the Relic weapon with us since release of the expansion? The weapon would've felt more like a part of us instead of being just an after-thought due to a poor raiding cycle.

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Originally Posted by Krylo

Diadem

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Since it's release I have been spelling it Diadumb, which I was trying to avoid when writing this.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

No, they just over-tuned Savage because they didn't like how quickly FCOB was cleared, resulting in some of the lowest end-game raid participation the game's ever seen.

Yoshi-P has said in an interview or two that the next Alexander section likely won't be as difficult.

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I can completely agree with this. And it is a bit disappointing to hear too. I am looking forward tot he challenge AS3 and AS4 will bring.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

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My apologies, I bit my own tongue and didn't fully read you comment before posting T_T

I get the feeling you didn't actually read what I wrote. (And no real fault for you, I am not the best writer when it comes to expressing my ideas.) I am not arguing about the difficulty, or the needed grinding of the relic or Diadem, what I am discussing is how they released it (and other content) and how it hinders the raiding community and the rewards the raiding community receives. For further info, see response to next person! As for bleeding edge content and people not wanting to run it, that is understandable, I know many players would prefer to ignore AS and focus on dungeons, VA, crafting, and gathering.

Also, about Diadem and the raid scene, ya, the fights were poorly tuned for sure.

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Originally Posted by Velox

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Yes. I completely agree with this. The reason I am excited about ThEX and AS3 is primarily for the challenge. Alexander Normal, the new Dungeons, and VA are very easy and very boring (playing on a PS3 or PS4 might make it a bit more entertaining). As for raiding for the best gear, it is not as simple as that. From my limited understand, BiS is designed to make further future runs of content easier (and too show off that you are part of a good team). Also, by having BiS come from the raid itself would allow hardcore raiders to completely skip tome gear and dungeon gear (and sometimes normal gear) and jump right into Savage runs. Something like this simply allows the raiding community going and not having to stop and mindless grind for their BiS. And, as it stands, you have already gritted your teeth, progressed, and beat the toughest content, why then receive no rewards? By giving the raiding community, those that would actually put BiS to use, allows them to further run raids in a much more consistent manner. And with mmos furthering the idea of not having weekly lockouts for raids this opens the avenue for statics to either sell content or for them to help other statics or players beat the current tier.

As a raider, honestly though, would you prefer to see your BiS not come from the raid tier you have so fervently struggled to beat over the many weeks of progression? Or would you prefer your BiS to show up in a form of casual play that anyone can do outside of the current raid tier? Maybe go a bit hypothetical and ask, what if nothing dropped at all? No title, no mounts, no glamour... nothing. And all you get is the feeling of beating the toughest content (hell, even SCoB savage at least gave out titles). Doing the raids for the sake of doing the raids is one thing; simply not rewarding players for beating the toughest content you can offer in the game is another. If it were just the relic weapon that would show up in casual play to be BiS, that is one thing, but every bloody equipment slot for BiS raiding not coming from the actual raid itself is pretty bad.

As someone mentioned though, this is a "catch up" patch, and I guess I am just disappointed that they used the Relic Weapon and Diadem as "catch-up" mechanics instead of some serious, fun, content to grind into.

As it stands, though, I would like to see the raiding gear be best for, you guessed it, raiding.

One last thing. I am really just trying to show that you can have a really strong weapon in the Relic be useful throughout multiple patches. Look at it right now, though, we get the weapon end of a raiding cycle where it will have little use. Players who have already beat AS4 and got their weapons are simply doing Relic because they having nothing else to do, and players currently progressing through AS3 will more than likely stick to ThEX weapons so they can spend more time on AS3. Also, if you get your ilvl 200 or ilvl 210 Relic, why do ThEX then?

Oh, I think I see where I am becoming misunderstood about end game raiding rewards. I am not actually seeing as getting this gear as means to an end when it comes to raiding. Most players that have gotten their BiS gear from Alexander Savage and Eso tomes actually put their gear to use by continuing to do raids (albeit through selling content, getting others their clears, or doing it with 1 less man). They put the gear to use. When you just offer this kind of gear to everyone, most players won't actually put it to use. As most have already argued, what use is ilvl 210 BiS if you don't even raid? What I am proposing is that each subsequent patch, BiS doesn't come from raiding. Instead it alternates between content. One patch its Relic and Dungeons, another its Tomes and Raid, then the next might be Relic and Tomes. It's just that the end of a raiding cycle, BiS armor and accessories would come from the current tier and you can have the option of Relic or Raid weapon.

Raiding means logically taking something from a place. Diadem is consider a raid, just not your typically challenging hard to beat or a challenge. Relic is not, that's personal progression, it's your own thing. We had those in Final Fantasy XI Online. Except in FFXI the relics did involve raiding, Dynamis. lol the new relic has that... Normal Alexander.

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Originally Posted by xvshanevx

As it stands, though, I would like to see the raiding gear be best for, you guessed it, raiding.

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You sure you don't want raiding gear to be best for "everything battle related", rather than raiding in particular? Because what you're asking for here is easy to implement, as you can use a Morale-like stat or accuracy to achieve that goal. Both however would mean raid gear would now be suboptimal outside of raids.

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Originally Posted by xvshanevx

They put the gear to use.

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Ehm...everyone that participates in battle content puts their gear to use. A raider will use the shiny new equipment to clear raids faster and easier while a casual will use the gear to clear dungeons faster and easier. And a bad player will use it to clear content he previously couldn't. Case in point: Clear rates rise as people gear up and stuff like Echo are introduced (which really is just an artificial iLvL boost).

As such, the worst players ironically are the ones who need good gear the most, as they have the least skill to make up for it. Yet they rarely are the ones to get it.

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Originally Posted by xvshanevx

Most players that have gotten their BiS gear from Alexander Savage and Eso tomes actually put their gear to use by continuing to do raids (albeit through selling content, getting others their clears, or doing it with 1 less man). They put the gear to use.

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Your definition of putting gear to use is very narrow; limiting it to doing top level content that you could already do faster/easier. How is doing low/mid level content faster/easier not also putting it to use?

They could make top level content give the hands down BiS drops, but with lockouts that shrinks the number of people doing it. Someone leaves your static and you need to replace them, all of a sudden you need to farm 6+ month old content for a new person to be able to raid with you. Remove the lockouts so statics aren't required to raid and you have waves clearing content then unsubbing for 5 months. SE found a balance, and while it's not perfect, it's better than most alternatives.

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Originally Posted by lawlHT

I'm sure this sounded cool in your head, but if you were to take away all of the rewards from savage Alex except the satisfaction of clearing it there wouldn't be anyone running it at all

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Hey that sounds rather familiar.

In my opinion, people need to stop comparing EVERYTHING in this game to "does it stack up to my raiding at all?" Content outside of raiding, isn't anti-raiding, just like raids are not anti-everything else, there is no reason for the two to be mutually exclusive at all, that mentality is what is anti-raid, because it scares off a lot of people that may have otherwise tried the end raids.

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Originally Posted by Krylo

This is called a catch up patch. They've had every other major patch be a catch up patch since forever.

Top-tier raiders get a couple months with BiS, then equivalent (potentially better, potentially worse, depending on gear slot) gear gets released with a heavy grind requirement to allow people who hadn't cleared, or hadn't cared to clear, to catch up before the next raid tier drops. In this way, new players who just reach max level are never left too far behind to catch up and begin raiding if they care to.

There's a salient argument to be had that Diadem breaks this a bit because you have the potential of every gear slot being better than raid gear just doing that, as opposed to the mix and match of earlier catch up patches--but that's a different discussion than the one you're trying to have, so.

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^^^
Pretty much what Krylo said. In first order of patches, is the raiding gear that a majority of the community won't see. then there is a catch up
patch that a lot more people will be able to jump into. Its usually more casual or something you'll grind and put time into (once weeklys, tomes,
relic grind). and when the next hardcore patch is added, many will still be gearing up from the previous patch. I believe they're trying to find some
middle ground that can please a lot of people.

I'd just like to see some longevity, but as we're probably expecting a cap raise with expansion two, I think we'll continue this back and forth
dialogue.

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Originally Posted by Gaiussenpai

Hey that sounds rather familiar.

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Kinda like the same situation if you took away all the meaning behind content other than raids.

I think you're misdiagnosing here. Diadem and Relic are designed in a fashion to compliment raiding. It - supposedly - provides content that you can pace yourself through as you choose, despite currently a-reek of 'forced hand'. This may then lead to that person raiding later on, since they have access to tools that can keep them up to par statwise with raiders. The Relic also provides a long term progression element and a sort of attachment to your progress as it is made manifest.

However, the next stuff down is all so easily attained and doesn't provide any sort of challenge except against ones own time, until you cross the threshold into this games raiding culture, and you're hit by it like a ton of bricks. Diadem and Relic shouldn't be posited as any sort of mid-tier challenge, but then again there's really nothing there otherwise, and so again, 'force hand' and all that. The closest thing to midcore that we have is the Ex primals and Thordan, all of which are really incentiveless to most, especially as they provide effectively no horizontal benefit in a game that is gluttoned on vertical progression, and they don't even provide enough in the way of tomes to merit doing over sets of the same two dungeons over and over again. And the next thing from that is Alexander story mode, which... well, I think that's been covered well enough.

I do agree with the sentiment that the raiding culture is suffering, but the content outside of it are just strawmen detracting of that which more deserves scorn.

EDIT: One thing about the relic weapon though, it definitely should have had the first two steps as .0 and .1 content or some such, partially because of iLvls, partially because of how little effort it actually took in terms of design, and partially because having those actually be proper relic steps probably would have lessened the blow of how much the last step sucks.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Kinda like the same situation if you took away all the meaning behind content other than raids.

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I'm dumb and I was thinking of scob not on the same page sorry :(

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Originally Posted by Ageofwar

I tend to keep clear of savage/extreme content due to the community being quite hostile, this also might contribute to non-raid content being favored more over raid content.

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I have to say this is largely untrue, especially if you're actively trying to learn the content to clear it. Yes, some players have generally bad attitudes, but as there aren't as many competent players who can consistently perform well in the tougher content (at least not on my server), we tend to be a lot more willing to help people learn. However, those people must be willing to learn and able to hold their own. We won't carry, and we won't accept someone who isn't willing to make the effort (i.e. it's patch 3.15 and you've never tried Garuda Ex, but want to join a farm party for it).

I've seen this same reasoning applied before as an excuse to not try, when it's simply not true. I'm not saying this is true of you personally, but I want to lay it to rest that the part of the community that actively enjoys more challenging content is hostile or uninviting. If you're willing to learn and make effort, we're willing to have you.