what's the point of specialist recipe?

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Seems the viewpoint of devs is that one people do everything and be self-suficient = evil.

In a game where one character can be everything this isn't right. Given the value of the collectables turned in for another crafting soul, you should eventually be able to be specialist in all crafting classes.

480 red scrips costs idk somewhere around 1m-2m gil.

I play the game a whole lot and I understand that the devs probably want more trading going on. It just feels restricting, I'd love it if we could have more than 3 crafting souls

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Originally Posted by Bloodb

480 red scrips costs idk somewhere around 1m-2m gil.

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You must either be badly spending your Gil on inefficient crafts or be failing your collectables if you think 480 red scripts are worth THAT much. (or maybe your server just has incredibly inflated prices on materials since no one wants to gather it)

If you are patient and wait for cheap collectables to be available (GSM accessories on bonus for example), it shouldn't cost more than 200-300k gil to cap if you bought everything from the Market Board, even less if you buy the basic stuff (sands/logs/ores) and make those into the materials for the collectable of choice.

And on the topic of OP's post, I think we should be able to unlock more specialisms over time. An idea of mine I tossed around was buying a special item for 500 Red Scripts that lets you take an additional Specialism, but you need more and more for each extra Specialism. Which means that for your 8th and final Specialism you would need 5 of these 500 script tokens plus the Soul of the Crafter (if you added all of the numbers up, you would need 9900 Red Scripts for all 8 Specialisms, including the extra 5 Souls). It may be extremely expensive (20 full weeks of capping) in Red Scripts, but that's what you pay for if you want more Specialisms instead of i180 Gear.

Yeah, since you can actually buy more Crafting Souls (you get 3 to start with) … there’s obvious flaws in their system.

You could, in theory, specialize in all crafts HOWEVER, if you have multiple combat/healer/tank classes, it doesn’t leave you much space for the Soul of the Whatever…

(Go to the Crafter collectable appraiser and script exchange people (5x y6) 480 Red Scrips can buy you more souls in Idyllshire…)

Seriously, SE… what even are you doing with this?

Edit: the post above me already mentioned the souls…whoops.

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Originally Posted by BARDS_ARROW

You could, in theory, specialize in all crafts

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No, you can not. The reason you can buy more Souls of the Crafter is so you can switch your specialisations (albeit at a hefty penalty of more than one week worth of red scrips). You can only have three active specialisations at any given time, no matter how many SotC you buy with red scrips.

My bad! Since my last post and this, my FC specialists have been teaching our newbies more about it and that was one of the things I brought up.

They want to force people to trade more and create opportunities for moneymaking by limiting supply (or rather limiting people able to supply) past the absurd prerequisites already.

Imho a little overkill, given the fact how much effort is needed to be able to craft the master recipes.
Also I agree that it feels like a design contradiction, if you take into account that the whole point of the system is for one character to be able to do everything IF the player dumps the time into the game.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

They want to force people to trade more and create opportunities for moneymaking by limiting supply (or rather limiting people able to supply) past the absurd prerequisites already.

Imho a little overkill, given the fact how much effort is needed to be able to craft the master recipes.
Also I agree that it feels like a design contradiction, if you take into account that the whole point of the system is for one character to be able to do everything IF the player dumps the time into the game.

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No more contradictory than the weekly tome system since 2.0 and on.

You can do everything.

You can't specialize in everything.

It's that simple. (Except for gatherers, but they work around competing time slots for materials)

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

No more contradictory than the weekly tome system since 2.0 and on.

You can do everything.

You can't specialize in everything.

It's that simple. (Except for gatherers, but they work around competing time slots for materials)

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Diadem says hi. These recipes are justified people to overcharge absurd prices for stuff. The system contradicts the whole getting more people to craft by LIMITING the amount of people in said craft. Plus the different schools of crafts barely craft the same things also. Where as dom/W there are really just 3 roles between 13 jobs. So it's not as cutthroat.

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Originally Posted by Ranzan

Diadem says hi. These recipes are justified people to overcharge absurd prices for stuff. The system contradicts the whole getting more people to craft by LIMITING the amount of people in said craft. Plus the different schools of crafts barely craft the same things also. Where as dom/W there are really just 3 roles between 13 jobs. So it's not as cutthroat.

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Diadem we kind of need to see if they raise the ilvl ceiling in 3.2 for it. Otherwise it's just another source of 'catch up gear' and hardly qualifies as being able to specialize in everything.

Absurdly stupid and randomly good catch up gear.

The point of specialist recipes is to get people to specialize.

Because the skills by themselves weren't enough.

Both the specialization system and its associated specialist recipes were introduced in response to player feedback about the accessibility of crafting.

The specialist skills are intended to allow those who are missing a lot of the level 50 cross class abilities to be able to craft the latest master recipes without having to level multiple DoH classes to 50+. If you already have the major cross class abilities, you don't even have to think about them unless you're completely CP starved and are willing to take a risk. Those skills aren't particularly aimed at omni-crafters.

The specialist recipes are intended to address the other complaint about single class crafters being unable to compete with omni-crafters. Increased private trading among players would also be a side effect but the main purpose of the recipes is to give specialists a market advantage by eliminating much of their competition.

Both skills and recipes are designed to make crafting more accessible by reducing the amount of work involved and creating some more exclusive markets. I don't think the developers see self-sufficiency as evil but if they see the same complaints coming repeatedly, they do try to address them if they believe that there is an actual problem.

To the post above: All it truly done was make crafting unnecessarily more tedious high priced. Plus doesn't the recipes contradict the whole "make crafting more accessible"? It's mind boggling how they can't solve any problems with crafting atm.

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Originally Posted by Ranzan

To the post above: All it truly done was make crafting unnecessarily more tedious high priced. Plus doesn't the recipes contradict the whole "make crafting more accessible"? It's mind boggling how they can't solve any problems with crafting atm.

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One side effect of specialist recipes is an increase in the price of certain (specialist) products as it is intended to benefit the specialist/seller, not the buyer. It gives a newer crafter a quicker means of earning more gil, allowing them to offset any of the high costs associated with crafting. If they can't afford to craft a final product because of the high prices of specialist materials, they can craft specialist materials and sell them to earn a pool of gil first before working on final crafts (that require materials that they can't craft) or choose specializations that allow them to craft a material and a final craft using it.

Yes, the ability to earn a lot of gil more quickly and easily is supposed to help with accessibility. If you remember from ARR, the cost of obtaining a supra and crafting all of the master book tokens was out of the range of a large percentage of players. Crafting 4* products was even more expensive (eg. allagan leather was 500k on my server for a couple of months after 2.4 and fell to a mere 200k for most of the remainder of ARR; a kirimu coat requires 5 of these things).

To be clear, I'm not defending this system and it remains to be seen whether it'll actually achieve what it was intended for, but I can see the reasoning behind it.

But that still doesnt make it any more accessible. Lock people out doesn't solve nothing out all. Hell prices are making people hate crafters even more. Let alone the barrier entry higher cause of cost. People in my FC wanted to start crafting build after seeing all those walls of entry (cost of mats, red scripts , specialist RNG skills) they threw their hands in the air like "nope". The reasoning may (nope) sound good but they looking horrible at economics atm.

They fail horribly cause this is actually make the wall of entry even higher with cost. I know FC mate that were trying to start crafting but they saw what was required now (red scrips, cost of mats, RNG skills that still need omniskills) they not going to try at all. Plus if cost doesn't benefit the buyer what's the point in buying? They need a lesson in economics badly.

Plus this current trend of everything is under specialist needs to stop. Things are going to get out of control FAST if everything from now on is specialist only.

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Originally Posted by MN_14

Both the specialization system and its associated specialist recipes were introduced in response to player feedback about the accessibility of crafting.

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The main barrier to endgame crafting is not leveling all crafters to 50. it is
"Either contend with the stupidly retarded Overmeld RNG system" or "commit to an absurd red script grind that costs you millions each week unless you are an lv60 omnicrafter".

Want an example? Right now the Adamantium bait awards 9 red scripts. It requires Adamantium nuggets. Normal nuggets are around 11K a pop, HQ nuggets are around 16-20K and very limited in quantity.

To cap I would need 50 of them + 50 of them grindstones (3 ore per), which are around 1K per HQ ore.
Provided I don't fail a single one (fat chance with ilvl 130) that would cost me 16K*50 + 150K for the ore assuming I farm the Wind crystals myself.

That's 950K Gil + Wind crystal farming just to cap for ONE WEEK.

That is your: "entry barrier to high end crafting" right there.
Specialist recipes and skills do jack shit in alleviating that.

If they want more people to craft in endgame what they really need to to is alleviate the absurd grind crafters must endure to get to a point where they are even capable of attempting a ** craft.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

The main barrier to endgame crafting is not leveling all crafters to 50. it is
"Either contend with the stupidly retarded Overmeld RNG system" or "commit to an absurd red script grind that costs you millions each week unless you are an lv60 omnicrafter".

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The specialization system was designed in response to ARR (4* crafting in particular). At that time, by far the most common complaints were leveling all classes to 50, overmelds, and omni-crafters forcing new crafters out of the market. Other complaints included master recipe ii tokens being too expensive and difficult.

Most of the things you've listed are additional barriers that they created after in response to the perceived problems back in ARR (possibly inadvertently in some cases).

As for excessive overmelding, the i180 gear is designed for you to be able to avoid that at the price of slower progression. If you want to progress faster, you'll need gil and the specialist recipes are supposed to create that opportunity. Unfortunately, the red scrip + favor grind appears to have been made extremely tedious to extend playtime and to transfer wealth from rich omni-crafters to gatherers.

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Originally Posted by MN_14

Unfortunately, the red scrip + favor grind appears to have been made extremely tedious to extend playtime and to transfer wealth from rich omni-crafters to gatherers.

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I agree that there is a 0 too many in there.
But what really annoys me is that the red script stuff essentially requires you to be either omnicrafter yourself or be a gillionare / know how to make millions a week.

I only have 9 mil after a year of playtime because I am not the sort that actively plays the AH. I have neither the knowledge nor the necessary playtime in order to recoup costs in the realm of a MILLION gil per WEEK! (I'm sure it looks vastly different on JP servers like Chocobo that sell even the relic items for something absurdly cheap like 70K gil)

Bottom line: endgame crafting is inaccessible to me. No matter how much I like the actual process of crafting.

I'm not disagreeing that there are major issues with crafting at the moment. 4* crafting was already considered inaccessible for most back in ARR (even a month after 2.4, the cost of a Supra tool was around 3.5 million gil and a master book was 500k provided that you weren't blowing up more than 2 FC3s per book; a lot of crafters blew up way more than that, artisan's offhands were worth at least 1.5 million in materials). The 4* crafts themselves could cost anywhere from 500k to 3 million gil per item in terms of production costs, so I do have to note that crafting high end items to sell on the market board is generally much cheaper now than back then including specialist recipes like the anima weapon items or the sky pirate's gear. The only exception would be recipes that require gated red scrip materials.

In my opinion, crafting has an overall far larger barrier than before due to the time commitment required if you can't buy your materials or if you decide to craft i170/i180 items. Lower tier items have also gotten really expensive due to general inflation and crafters with lots of gil who are willing to spend a lot if they believe that they can earn a huge return.

I just don't get why there is such a HUGE wall of grind/timesink to the ENTRY of crafting.

It's not as if crafters could easily craft endgame raid equivalent gear or something and imho the difficulty should come from crafting these specific recipes not from a mindless MEGAFARM in order to get the necessary crafting stats in order to be graced with the possibility of attempting the craft.

From the looks of it, it seems that I leveled my GSM to 60 for umm.. well ... nothing really. I can't craft anything interesting and progressing further gets prohibitively expensive in both gil and playtime.

Meh.

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Originally Posted by MN_14

The 4* crafts themselves could cost anywhere from 500k to 3 million gil per item in terms of production costs, so I do have to note that crafting high end items to sell on the market board is generally much cheaper now than back then including specialist recipes like the anima weapon items or the sky pirate's gear. The only exception would be recipes that require gated red scrip materials.

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I like what you are saying but thats not a great example. 4* Crafts often were BiS pieces of gear VS gear that is purely for glamour. It's also not made from anything particularly hard to get nor does it matter if you HQ it or not.

You are correct tho. Crafting has had some variation of a lockout for a LONG time. Desynthesis being one where you could only have 3 crafts levelled to a useful level AND it took considerable investment for the most part to get them that high. And your right, unlocking 4* was a bitch and took a lot of time, money, practice and skill.


However, specialist recipes, like so many other things in HW, are a LAZY LAZY way of gating content. There is no "with time and skill you can unlock more things" or even "throw money at this to unlock more things" it's a flat boring "nope you are stuck with those crafts or you can blow all your red scripts on unlocking one more craft every week"

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

No more contradictory than the weekly tome system since 2.0 and on.

You can do everything.

You can't specialize in everything.

It's that simple. (Except for gatherers, but they work around competing time slots for materials)

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Beginning of 2.0 with the first relic: Any crafter could easily make and meld the required components as long as you were 50 in that craft, you didn't even need to HQ it. However, each recipe required an ingredient that was stuck in a dungeon that anyone could farm.

Since most crafters could make those items, supply was high and prices were reasonable. Even then, I still made a decent amount of $$ on crafted pieces and melds. Anyone else could make money on the materia or by farming the weapon pieces that came out of AK. Seems like it worked much better than this gated nonsense with crap specialist actions.

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

You must either be badly spending your Gil on inefficient crafts or be failing your collectables if you think 480 red scripts are worth THAT much. (or maybe your server just has incredibly inflated prices on materials since no one wants to gather it).

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Think he is looking at how much you could sell the red script item for, not cost to get.

So, we have 70K (average) a pop for a gather item. Need 20 items and 1 red script to get 15 crafting items.
Total if you buy the gather stuff is 1.4 million.
The crafting items, for example Purified Coke, sell for an average of approx $130,000 each. As you get 15 that is 1.95 million
Therefore the value of one red script is 0.55 million.
Round the 480 down to 450 for 9 scripts and that is 4.95 million Gil.

Now if you have larger supply the margin will likely get smaller, but that is my server at the moment.