The unbalanced advantage of game controllers and how to make keyboard play better.

I'm a keyboard player. To be more specific, I am a FFXI keyboard player. I have built my gameplay experience completely around using the keyboard for everything. numpad is used for movement, arrow keys control the camera. I used A, S, D, and X to control the menu movements. and I have two rows of action bars for doing stuff. I've been using macros to switch my primary action bar between 3 different bars on my lower row. I even have g-keys on my Logitech G-510s keyboard mapped out.

Even with all that it is not enough to compare to a game controller player.

Pros for game controller players.
1: each cross bar provides 24 actions that can be accessed. 8 active at a time, "on the fly" swappable.
2: game controllers are ergonomically comfortable to access controls.
3: able to still used the normal hot bars to build a UI.

Cons for keyboard players
1: action bars only have 12 actions, half the amount of the game controller player
2: action bars are not ergonomically as cross bars. realistically I only have comfortable access to half of the action bar.
3: have to use action bars to build UI elements I want quick access too.

The solution that I can think of is this.
add swappable action bars.
holding ctrl or alt will swap the action bars to an alternate version of that action bar. each key providing access to a different set.
This would triple the accessible action bar space.
settings in the action bar configuration could be added for if the player wants each action bar to swap when ctrl or alt is pressed.


The second upgrade that would be good, is allowing for direct key bind mapping of game keys on gaming keyboards. so they don't need to be set in the software to emulate other key presses, which can cause problems by triggering other keys. (alt-1 may trigger 1 sometimes.) Logitech keyboard g-keys or Razer Keyboard M-keys/T-keys for example.

Honestly, I have set my keyboard to mimic a controller as is. (You can even have keyboard buttons activate the controller UI as well)
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f1...n/numpad_1.jpg

My num pad is 0-9 + - enter . * /

Then I hold ALT for the same buttons again (for lesser used abilities)

Then i use the ins, home, page up, del, end, page down, for most of my main CDs.

(I made num lock the scroll lock, so i know if i accidentally hit it during combat, where before it was auto run, and suddenly abilities wernt working)

Also I have shift and CNTRL for more modifiers.

Q target left, E target right.
space is "X" target in front of me. (I press shift/space for my jump, since i hardly need it, which takes some time to get used to, but now i dont think about it anymore)

and R is up, and F is down on the cycle up/down on the UI.

lesser used UI targeting usually has me hodl down shift, alt, or cntrl, depending on what it is.

Why not just play FFXIV with a controller on your PC? that's what i do

On pc you have the advantage that you can use mouse easily to target, but with just controllers is a pain to select a desired target.

try playing 72-man PvP using controller to target... you cannot even use L1+up/down... fun xD

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Firesped

I'm a keyboard player. To be more specific, I am a FFXI keyboard player. I have built my gameplay experience completely around using the keyboard for everything. numpad is used for movement, arrow keys control the camera. I used A, S, D, and X to control the menu movements. and I have two rows of action bars for doing stuff. I've been using macros to switch my primary action bar between 3 different bars on my lower row. I even have g-keys on my Logitech G-510s keyboard mapped out.

Even with all that it is not enough to compare to a game controller player.

Advantages for game controller players.
1: each cross bar provides 24 actions that can be accessed. 8 active at a time, "on the fly" swappable.
2: game controllers are ergonomically comfortable to access controls.
3: able to still used the normal hot bars to build a UI.

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You might need to look up what the word "advantage" means. None of those 3 things are done better on controller vs keyboard, and that's what advantage means.

In all honesty both controller and keyboard have the same caveats... To many actions (31+)... not enough keys/buttons for them all to allow for speedy access.

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Originally Posted by Zorlinta

On pc you have the advantage that you can use mouse easily to target, but with just controllers is a pain to select a desired target.

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How much time have you spent playing the game w/ a controller? Or is this some "established fact" you believe? Like the "established fact" that it's not possible to browse web pages on a mobile phone's small screen?

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Originally Posted by Laraul

How much time have you spent playing the game w/ a controller? Or is this some "established fact" you believe? Like the "established fact" that it's not possible to browse web pages on a mobile phone's small screen?

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Im play normally with ps4 (and been playing this game for year and half). Im have 2 sets of actions configured for each of the classes that i play and have no trouble with buttons, the big trouble are trying to select something smoothly and faster, it allways been a pain targeting with just the controllers.

I can play on pc but i dont do it normally because with my pc the rendering is slightly slow and get lagged a bit, but thats other issue. With keyboard and mouse is not troublesome play.

So i suggest you look better for your "established facts" ok ;)

This is the first time I have ever seen it argued that a controller gives an advantage over keyboard. Keyboard is so much better.

The game does play very well with controller but only if you actually use the cross hotbar setting. Targeting can be a touchy sometimes but if you are accustomed to controllers it's not terribly bad.

People will just equate this with you giving some type of praise to consoles in turn making the PC crowd cling to the notion the k/b is absolute best when really controller does outshine it in areas.

That 72-man PvP point is so niche I'd barely consider it a real issue.. in the other 90% of content that people actually play the controller access to skills is nice.

I think you're confused. XIV is not XI. It's not a sequel, it's not horizontal or solely party based. XI was built a long, long time ago and it was inspired and emulated (pretty well, may I add) the traditional console Final Fantasy feel. TP acted as your ATB, you had menus stacked on menus which led to more menus. Summons were a 'one and done' deal. XIV is not XI.

After reading this: "holding ctrl or alt will swap the action bars to an alternate version of that action bar. each key providing access to a different set. " I'm 90% sure you have never bothered even trying to look in game for the option, or outside of it.

I don't get it.

I mean this is clearly supposed to be some kind of joke or satire, but I'm not seeing the punchline.

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Originally Posted by Callback

I don't get it.

I mean this is clearly supposed to be some kind of joke or satire, but I'm not seeing the punchline.

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The only thing I consider 'joke' worthy is advantage...

Other than that his point is quite clear...

There was a thread several months ago comparing them, and this is what I came up with as an answer:

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Controller is better for movement. Double joysticks beat anything a Keyboard/Mouse user has to work with in that regard.

Controller is marginally better for activating skills, with all of its controls being in easy reach at all times. KB/M users either have a limited section of their keyboard easily available one-handed, or else they have to forego the mouse in order to have both hands for the keyboard, but that then further limits their movement and targeting controls. (This is as compared to a standard keyboard and mouse. Specialty devices like the Razer Naga some have mentioned, a mouse that can be configured to effectively act as a controller at the same time, may be able to take care of this issue.)

Keyboard & Mouse is marginally better for targeting, since they have mouse-over options that controller players don't. (KB/M would probably be significantly better than Controller if compared to the default controller configuration, but most of the controller's awkwardness is taken care of by setting up multiple targeting filters. It still has the issue of targeting elements of a particular type in a strange seeming order, but the keyboard has that same issue, leaving the mouse as the tiebreaker.)

Keyboard and Mouse is better for things like setting waymarks or any action that gets placed at a spot on the ground rather than on your target.

All in all, I'd say it's pretty much a wash. Each has some slight advantages and some slight disadvantages, but either works well enough for even its worst feature once you're used to it.

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Get a naga.

/endthread

there, I changed my words for advantage and disadvantage to pros/cons. I guess I used a bad choice of words. the reason for the post was to get additions done to action bar that everyone gets access too. the overall issue is we don't have enough action bar space. but I guess everyone just doesn't want anything. I'd delete the thread if I could but I can't. sigh.

Perks of using controller probably would've been fine. I got what you were trying to say..

Wait, what? You have 10 bars to bind as you see fit...
For me:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, cZ, cX, cC, cV, csZ, csX - bar 1
s1, s2, s3, s4, s5, sR, sF, sC, sV, sB, sT, sY, sG - bar 2
c1, c2, c3, c4, aS, aD, aF, aG, aX, aC, aV, aB - bar 3

1. Figure out how many bars you need (hint: 3 + optional mouse bar?)
2. Stack and scale them for comfortable visual presence
3. Bind them
4. Slot abilities
...Takes all of 3-5 minutes?

I usually feel disadvantaged when using the controller, not the other way around. Feels about the same as pure KB to me. I usually don't find that controller has any advantage, even in steering during movement, if you have comfortable binds for lock-on and/or legacy/character-based control swap.

That said, I certainly wouldn't mind the options you've mentioned.

as far as my setup goes, I have a g510s keyboard. I have hotbar 1 (rotating bar) mapped to the "QWERTYUIOP{}"line. hotbar 2 is mapped to the "1234567890-=" line. ASD and X move my menu. my numpad is mapped to character movement, arrow keys are mapped to camera movement. I use bars 1 3 and 4 for my rotations. my g-keys are mapped to access hotbars 5 and 6.

until a recent change, I was using the first 3 spots on hotbar 2 to swap my main hot bar. I haven't fully integrated that change yet with my playing. I mapped the hotbar switch binds over on the keypad which will let me free up those 3 slots.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Keyboard & Mouse is marginally better for targeting, since they have mouse-over options that controller players don't. (KB/M would probably be significantly better than Controller if compared to the default controller configuration, but most of the controller's awkwardness is taken care of by setting up multiple targeting filters. It still has the issue of targeting elements of a particular type in a strange seeming order, but the keyboard has that same issue, leaving the mouse as the tiebreaker.)

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There's very little use of the custom target filters outside of the sheathed/drawn mode. For the most part all targeting is done either via L2/R2 + L1 or R1 to targets enemies, and up/down on the directional pad to target party. L1+ Up/Down cycles thru the enemy list.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Keyboard and Mouse is better for things like setting waymarks or any action that gets placed at a spot on the ground rather than on your target.

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This can be true, especially w/ waymark placement. Actually placing an action ground target isn't that hard do to the size of the targeted area. On the other hand, when using ground targeting via a mouse from an object (i.e. cannon) it's awfully easy to accidently disengage yourself from the cannon, forcing you to right-click the cannon with the mouse to bring back up the cannon's hotbar.