Dark Knight lore/story question (Spoilers)

At the end of the level 50 job quest. Our "darkside"/Fray disolves after we seem to join together in the end.
When our dark side disappears it is done using the sparkle effect that I've only ever seen shown when a primal dies.

So is our dark side a primal? If so, how did it come into being in the first place?

http://i.imgur.com/dUjVaYw.png

Strictly speaking... it's unexplained.

If you want my personal take on it, "Fray" / your dark side is a physical manifestation of your psychological shadow archetype as a result of the soul crystal's influence (though only at the end of the 50 quest - until then s/he is either a hallucination or possessing the dead body of Fray the Dark Knight). S/he may be driven by our desires, but rather than require prayer and have his / her personality colored by that, "Fray" is a manifestation of your subconscious thoughts and desires. No mention of aetheric consumption.

The sparkle effect is actually unique; there's dark fog mixed in with the motes of light, the former of which isn't present with any primal (that I can recall).

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Originally Posted by Cilia

"Fray" is a manifestation of your subconscious thoughts and desires. No mention of aetheric consumption.

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That is what i was thinking as well until i saw the sparkle effect. Thank you for your reply. Gave me a lot to think about, about the DRK lore.

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Originally Posted by AsteriaStarfall

So is our dark side a primal? If so, how did it come into being in the first place?

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Humoring the Primal theory a bit. Ever since 2.3 (and earlier if your a Legacy player) the WoL has attained a reputation of a powerful and noble hero. Such figures have a tendency to get deified sooner or later (See. Jesus, Gilgamesh, Herakles, etc. Note that heroism and nobility is relative) and even if you're not a legacy player, the Warriors of Light from there still get referenced, and are possibly the Warriors of Darkness.

That said, I find it easier to believe that the Warrior of Light themselves or the Warriors of Darkness are primals as opposed to Fray being one at least on the same scope as Ifrit, Ravana and Thodian. Fray might be more akin to an egi of sorts. An Aspect of the Warrior of Light, but more limited (they can't use your other Job skills) and therefore less powerful, but even if the "WoL is a Primal" theories are true, the egi comparison is still inadequate.

I think that Fray might be a more personal-scale Eikon though, (debateably) far less powerful to be a bane to the realm at large, probably incapable of tempering, but still born of emotions and aether. There is other case of that kind of Primal, but the canoncity of the subplot he appears in is debatable. I'd say that Fray is an enigma in nature.

I put it down to us having the echo. The true power of the echo is something we never fully explore but it does let us transend the normal limits of the soul. Originally this lead to your dark side possessing a corpse, something the echo can do quite easily. Later when it leaves the corpse and directly manifests could likewise be an extreme case of the echo subconsciously pouring out. Who is to say that the echo cant allow a echo use to literally manifest portions of their soul physically?

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Originally Posted by Belhi

I put it down to us having the echo. The true power of the echo is something we never fully explore but it does let us transend the normal limits of the soul. Originally this lead to your dark side possessing a corpse, something the echo can do quite easily. Later when it leaves the corpse and directly manifests could likewise be an extreme case of the echo subconsciously pouring out. Who is to say that the echo cant allow a echo use to literally manifest portions of their soul physically?

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Certainly an interesting possibility. According to Lahabrea the power of the Echo is sufficient to break down the barriers of existence itself - the first thing he and Igeyorhm do with it is fuse into one being. If fusion is possible, fission is certainly within the realm of possibility (if not probability) as well.

That said, it's unclear what exactly is going on. The only point we know for sure that our shadow is possessing Fray's body is during the 50 quest - there's no way we could have gotten to Whitebrim and beat down the standing forces before we physically arrived with the chiruregon. Before then it's extremely vague as to when it's your shadow possessing Fray's corpse and when you're just hallucinating "Fray" being there with you.

Either way, it's a giant mystery exactly what "Fray" was. Who s/he was is easily explained, but even Sidurgu has never heard a tale like yours, suggesting what happened to you was not at all a common occurrence. It's entirely possible that it was some kind of resonance effect with the Soul Crystal and the Echo, but given the multitude of other soul crystals don't have any similar resonance, it's still a mystery. I'm OK with it always being so, just like why random animals carry 148 gil and magic fire rings.

Anyway, I digress. If it were a sort of fission effect with the Echo we'd have been missing half of us for the questline, and while our sanity is a bit cracked there's no indication anything like that happened.

I felt that Darkness and you were still connected, even though it was manifested. It kept trying to get you to accept and listen to the darkness within yourself. Its interesting that it seemed to suffer weakness several times in the quests too. There is nothing to say a echo user cant occupy two hosts at the same time.

It was definitely something possessing Fray's corpse because it left the body behind afterward. They mention at the end that they gave the body of our 'friend' a full burial. I also think the difference with the Dark Knight Crystal and our other Crystals is a cross between the nature of the Dark Knights powers and the internal turmoil the WoL would have been experiencing, particularly right after 2.55. We are inexperienced with the echo as we almost always use it passively. We could have easily used it by accident, particularly if the Soul Crystal sparked off a part of ourselves we were supressing.

This particular theory is also shaped my wonderings on exactly the nature of the WoL's echo. We know the properties of the echo is different for everyone. Krile's echo gives her an extreme sensitivity to the aetheric/soul energies of others. I've had a theory the WoL's echo allows them to link to the souls of others, bulstering them and perhaps drawing on them. This theory is born out of our 'beacon of hope', comments by NPCs that our presense can 'make things happen', and the final scene in 2.0 where we manifest light versions of all our allies and Lahabrea says 'the light, it binds them'.

Perhaps the Fray thing is that function going haywire.

Also I though Sidurgu said he had heard legends of the like but had thought they were just that.

There is a clear connection between you and "Fray," since s/he very rarely refers to him/herself as an individual and is, by most accounts, your shadow - everything about yourself you don't like and hide from the world, from your rage to your sorrow. Of course there's nothing saying that an Echo user can't occupy two hosts simultaneously, but there's nothing saying they can yet either, and things are false until proven true. (Or: Russell's teapot.)

While it's clear your shadow was possessing Fray's corpse during "Our Answer," before then it's incredibly vague as to whether or not "Fray" is physically there with you and speaking on your behalf, or you're speaking the dialogue that belongs to "Fray" and hallucinating him/her being there with you. Some of the characters you interact with note that you're not quite yourself during the line, especially when you get testy with Ungrateful Limsan Merchant Guy, and even though s/he is the one speaking on your behalf nobody ever directly addresses or even looks at "Fray" before "Our Answer." It really threw me for a loop until I hit that quest... and it still isn't totally clear even in-universe.

As for the rest... who knows. I don't want to tie the Echo into DRK because it's technically not necessary at all, and I doubt they'd put such an important story detail into optional content. We also have it pretty clearly spelled out for us when the Echo is doing Echo-y stuff in 2.x onward, and while we do black out during "Our End," there's nothing else suggesting the Echo is in play. If it were going haywire maybe, but... well, who knows. (See: Russell's teapot.)

And you're right - Sidurgu does mention he's heard tales like ours. My mistake. That actually makes it significantly less likely "Fray" owes his/her corporeal manifestation to the Echo, though, since chances are the other people Sidurgu heard about having similar experiences to our own didn't have the Echo.

Fray being an Egi or something similar would actually make sense, since the Egis are basically creatures summoned based on the memories of the Job Crystal's previous holder(s). And since DRKs use a lot of magic (Unleash etc.), conjuring up the Äther for it would be very much possible.

Well I'm really just speculating. While I don't think they will try to explain everything about the echo in the Job quests I won't be surprised to see facets slip in. For example, the Dark Knight story isn't the only one to touch on the concept of Darkness.

On Fray, the thing that makes me think Fray is there in the 'flesh' is that in combat in those situations Fray is using CNJ magic and would be regardless of if the DRK is a CNJ or not. The weird thing about this is that the real Fray actually knew Conjury. That's my second feeling we might be seeing something Echo related as such types of possessions seems similar to an Ascian thing (Im referencing the SMN story here but trying to avoid spoilers).

Soul Crystals can also do weird things on their own. In one Job quest chain you see Soul Crystals establishing this chain of dominance which doesn't happen with any other Job. That's why I think the DRK Soul Crystal could have had its own unique effect.

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Originally Posted by Ar4093

Fray being an Egi or something similar would actually make sense, since the Egis are basically creatures summoned based on the memories of the Job Crystal's previous holder(s).

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Not quite.

Otherwise, us having the Summoner soul crystal would have allowed us to summon Egis of Primals that previous holder(s) had (Tristan being able to summon the Egi of the Elder Primal Belias was kind of a special case, considering that the Ascian involved did some tempering on the soul crystals).

What we did inherit from the soul crystal itself, was the knowledge on how to create, tame and summon an Egi, among other spells.

The Egi(s) of what exactly, was entirely up to us (and what Primal we defeated before/aether of it that tainted us to get it).

The closest thing to us summoning something from a previous holder would've been the Scholar soul crystal and Lily (who kept her memories thanks to it)...

Thou not a lv60 DRK (lv51, I have beaten the lv50 job quest) & due to all other NPC's in the quest never noticing "Fray" ever till s/he confronts you in that lv50 quest I'll side with "hallucination" but not a normal kind more 1 that its the "soul stone" using you're repested emotions/thoughts to make "you" you're own teacher as you don't have 1 near by to do so...

that said u do this thing every quest on the way to 50 were you rase you're hand toward "Fray" & focus on the darkness which could be you're giving you're "Teacher/Hallucination" Aether to make them a form (like a primal) but since they 1) wanted to take over you're body & 2) when dead they had something left behind to burry puts me at something along the lines of "Sucubi" since they use a dead Corpse to make they way into FF14's world & then mutate it to the form they want & can retain all the "Hosts" knowladge... add in that DRK's draw from u'r inner void gate like BLM do kinda & u get a more "Duel Monster" feal from YuGiOh since those can be drawn from u without harming u at all (cept for the knowladge that "it" came from u) just ours is well just another us thats not a mute nice person.

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Originally Posted by The_NPC

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I wouldn't go that far. Esteem does care about you, so I doubt s/he was fully intent on killing you.

One element to consider is that the soul stone itself may be teaching us using Fray, or that Fray may actually be teaching us due to how soul stones work.

Soul stones carry the memories of past holders. We take those memories, apply them to our current skillsets, and boom, we're our job. What happens to us may be a similar process, though much more involved and powerful, due to how much aether is in soul stones.

We pick up the soul stone and it immediately reacts. Think about it: we're the biggest beacon of hope and light in the realm... for other people. We are not going to be an easy host for darkness. We needed to be exploited. And the Dark Knights of old were probably the best candidates to do that. They probably conjured up our negative feelings and manifested them via the soul stone's aether onto Fray.

It would explain how Fray still knew Conjury after death; he was probably the one controlling himself and his actions.

I think it's a confusing combination of the two. The Fray that we interact with and the Fray that died are two different people, but we were talking to a corpse. We were suppressing the image of the dead body before us to interact with the (live) person. I wouldn't say the soul stone was channeling Fray from the memories, since that's rarely ever the case (with some exceptions). For Fray's conjury, a lot of story is written based on the idea that everyone has accepted every class. That the real Fray knew conjury might be coincidence, but we were healing ourselves. I highly doubt a soul stone for one job can actually channel the abilities of another. Or it might have been us using self-healing skills beyond our knowing, our mind suppressing it.

In regards to the visuals, I think it's a combination of our soul stone-dependent illusion and the light signifying Fray's return to our "self". The return of the complete Warrior of Light from our Patch 2.55 PTSD.

Slightly off-topic: is it ever explained why Fray has yellow eyes in cutscenes and purple/pink eyes in combat?

http://s7.postimg.org/vo21bhg3f/frey.jpg

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Originally Posted by Haprimac

Slightly off-topic: is it ever explained why Fray has yellow eyes in cutscenes and purple/pink eyes in combat?

http://s7.postimg.org/vo21bhg3f/frey.jpg

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Prolly to keep the Shadow aspect a twist, but also to hint that something's off

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Originally Posted by Haprimac

Slightly off-topic: is it ever explained why Fray has yellow eyes in cutscenes and purple/pink eyes in combat?

http://s7.postimg.org/vo21bhg3f/frey.jpg

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No?

Going into the realm of conjecture, I'd say it's because Fray's eyes glow yellow when his body is first possessed by our Shadow, and then later at Whitebrim Front. So to deal with the "Fray helping you with Conjury" bit as well, I'd argue that during fights his body is physically there (albeit possessed by your Shadow), while the yellow-eyed one is a hallucination wrought by the DRK Soulstone.