Are crossover events canon?

I've been wondering this for sometime now, and figured it was a no but wanted to get confirmation considering recent events.

The majority make little to no sense, Vana'diel and Hydaelyn are apparently not connected in any way according to the developers and yet Shantotto managed to stumble into Eorzea. I shook it off as just non-canon fan service (as with the promotional FFXIII event), but the recent Iroha event has me reconsidering that stance. Iroha is now stuck in our world for the foreseeable future, but there was no real explanation as to how she ended up here, unless I've forgotten the event already in which case someone please do remind me. With her appearance I'd expect an explanation on how she got her, but it boils down to "I forgot", and that makes little sense especially when Hydaelyn and Vana'diel are connected... Has the lore team explained any of this? I'd be really interested in an answer. :)

... Ish (on a bad day)

Think of it this way - by the time the lore team is assigned to make something work, when it comes to cross-overs and holidays and even certain scenarios (such as Hildibrand), the decision whether or not to do it has already been made. They can send feedback such as, "Okay, we can make that work, but you need to make sure X or change Y or we'd have to also include Z", but it's (probably) happening.

The team does their best to ensure that the event won't break the lore, but there's stretching of the canon all the time, whether it's silly holiday shenanigans or surprise Shantotto or Gilgamesh comically "summoning" Enkidu by wishing too hard too close to a box of crystals. They know it doesn't always fit perfectly, but it always at least shows an understanding of the worlds involved, even if the excuse is a bit silly. It's a necessary evil of cross-overs, comedy, and celebrating holidays when the year never actually changes. Even lore lead Oda-san encourages people to draw their own lines about how much sense they need to make of it and how they want to look at it. (Quoting a question about Hildibrand, specifically, there.)

The way I choose (read: unconfirmed) to think about it is that the events are "one-directionally" canon. Things coming in to the scenario (from Hydaelyn or another world) fit within it, but problems will probably arise if you try to bring any of it back into Hydaelyn, such as trying to use Enkidu as a way to understand primals in general.

Thanks for the response! :)

But yeah, this is what peeves me most, it is and isn't canon at the same time because they don't want to outright say it isn't canon but it also directly contradicts what they've stated at earlier times. I have no doubt that Iroha will be making a return one way or another, likely living her life out in Hydaelyn as Vana'diel, or rather FFXI, is now over. I'm curious at to whether they will explain it or just let it be, I'm hoping it's not the latter as that would be rather lazy and more strange than whatever Blizzard is going with the Warcraft lore.

Holiday events are easily explained as time in the MSQ but in-game time are completely separate for gameplay purposes, and Gilgamesh is silly attachment with the no effect on the real world so it can be dismissed as not part of the main canon lore I suppose. Still though, it wouldn't hurt for proper explanations to be given other than the them traveling through the Void. Couldn't we in theory traverse the Void and travel to Vana'diel? That would fit into the current lore they've modeled, but then, this Void they've apparently come from is different to our Void where the Void Ark traveled to, where we fought the Cloud of Darkness, the one the Allagans researched and made their own engineered Voidsent are different a different "void"? It's all too confusing.

I've always viewed it like you did; non canon fan service. Although some like to believe that all FF games are connected with XIV being the hub lol.

The Void is tricky, but much like the one appearing prominently in Final Fantasy V, I'm strongly inclined to consider it it's own separate universe-within-a-universe in each installment, rather than a dimension interconnecting the disparate worlds. For one thing, citing the Cloud of Darkness as being the same being in both games courtesy of being in the Void is completely ignorant to the rather firmly established rules surrounding it in Final Fantasy III, which do not apply to the FF14 incarnation at all, especially considering 14 seems keen on using "the light" in the Zoroastrian sense (the one absolute, with a distant but inevitable victory) as opposed to the usual Yin and Yang stance taken by, well, every other game in the series. I'd actually go as far as say 14's Cloud of Darkness is the nail in the Mhachi coffin as far as whether or not "the Void" is what connects the FF14 world to others. It isn't.

Gilgamesh, on the other hand, is Gilgamesh. Whether he's the same displaced wanderer from FFV in each incarnation or an entirely new incarnation each time following the same premise is beside the point. I'm even pretty sure Dissidia provided both as valid answers.

Some of them definitely fit better than others. Shantotto for example has been shown before to be able to cross dimensions (A Shantotto Ascension), but like Anonymoose I view all these things as one-directionally canon.

It is interesting to note that some of the events have a shared internal canon. Last year's (if I remember correctly) Starlight Celebration had a scene that differs depending on if you have done the Hildibrand quests.

My views are:

that Shanttoto WAS indeed in Eorzea but, true to her nature, only made a few grim times about our future then telaported back to Vana'diel leaving everyone more confused than before. (she's apparently good at that)

Lighting was never actually PHYSICALLY in Eorzea at all but her spirit was brought along with a few trials to test her resolve while her body remained in Nova Crystalis.

And finally our young Samurai Lancer. She, if I'm not mistaken, was from an Alternate future where the Hero of Vana'diel (her mentor) died upon failing to save the world and she went back in time to change the out come.

If she suceeds (which I assume she does upon ff11's conclusion) then she would have created a time paradox by existing there. Meaning to me (no mater what god, godess, or void portal actually sent her) that now that her existence is nulled in her world she's not actually able to leave ours due to that time paradox and is ultimately stuck here.

And since I myself am a proponent of said controversial void theory, I believe Gilgimesh is Gilgimesh and that the one encountered in all games is the same one Exdeath threw into the void in FF5 with his origenal world being Type-0's Orience.

Long story short: yes and no.

Within the context of its own game world, crossover events are typically considered canon. For instance, how Lightning, Shantotto, and Iroha made it over to Eorzea is explained - Lightning is just an astral projection sent by Bhunivelze to prepare her for her role of "savior" in LR:XIII, Shantotto stumbled into Eorzea using a spell (the same one that kicked off A Shantotto Ascension), and Iroha was sent by one of the Vana'deilian mothercrystals (or something). Gilgamesh, being an interdimensional hopper, just kinda shows up and it's accepted because he's Gilgamesh.

At the same time, don't expect said crossovers to be referenced in their "home" game. Lightning makes no mention of her time in Eorzea, for instance, and while the female Miqo'te starting outfit is available for her as a garb it's meant to be from a fairy tale (or something). Shantotto and Iroha make no reference to their time in Eorzea in XI; Shantotto because she hasn't been in new content for some time, and Iroha precisely because she's brand new for Vana'deil Rhapsodies. Gilgamesh, again, is just who he is and everyone accepts it; at least he's seeking spears in addition to swords now.

So basically, it's canon within the context of its own game, and if the devs say so. Especially important in XIV.

The odd thing about Shanttoto is there is an important Shantotto in FF14 lore. So canon wise is the Shantotto from the event the Shantotto from the early days of Mhach who decided to go dimension hopping one day or is a different Shanttoto who just happened to be the founder of Black Mage?

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Originally Posted by Belhi

The odd thing about Shanttoto is there is an important Shantotto in FF14 lore. So canon wise is the Shantotto from the event the Shantotto from the early days of Mhach who decided to go dimension hopping one day or is a different Shanttoto who just happened to be the founder of Black Mage?

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There's no Shantotto in XIV lore. There is a Shatotto, no "n" in there, who was supposedly the original owner of the Stardust Rod. That's all the information we have on her.

... it is quite obviously a shout-out to Shantotto, but it's not the genuine article. Probably maybe.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

There's no Shantotto in XIV lore. There is a Shatotto, no "n" in there, who was supposedly the original owner of the Stardust Rod. That's all the information we have on her.

... it is quite obviously a shout-out to Shantotto, but it's not the genuine article. Probably maybe.

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Oh I never noticed the n was missing.

We do know more about Shatotto from the BLM quests since you literally using her Soulstone, which you need cause channeling Black Magic without a proper BLM soul stone is extremely dangerous

as in the magic can literally cook the caster from the inside out.

Shatotto was the one who first devised the method which was the basis for Black Magic. She is basically the originator of Mhachi Black magic.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

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You could argue this is where Iroha's story ends since Hydaelyn did not allow her to return to Vana'diel.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Shatotto was the one who first devised the method which was the basis for Black Magic. She is basically the originator of Mhachi Black magic.

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Ah, well I meant the royal "we."

Just kidding. I did forget that Shatotto was the original owner of the BLM soulstone. Didn't know the rest, though. Considering I'm more of a Dork Kn- err, Dark Knight fanbo- err, Dark Knight, while I did find the THM quest intriguing I've not finished it and focus more on my "Main Class." Since I reached the apex of what I can do as a solo player long ago, I've started playing other classes - maxed SMN, MCH, and NIN. Really need to get back into crafting, but I hate the excessive quantity of items you need now.

Digression aside, Shatotto and Shantotto are not the same.

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Originally Posted by KylePearlsand

You could argue this is where Iroha's story ends since Hydaelyn did not allow her to return to Vana'diel.

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Maybe. Iroha is quite unique in that she's never sent back to Vana'diel and thus stuck in Eorzea. So she could show up later. Popular theory is that she's going to be the one who introduces us to SAM, but I'm not quite sold on that yet.

I recall a comment a long long time ago stating that we would get some kind of explanation on the wider universe of the franchise at some point and that the crossover events would make more sense then.

Given the situation with Iroha now being trapped in our world I'm wondering if she might actually have some significance in the future. It would be entirely possible for the devs to use her character to continue one tiny thread of FFXI's story in FFXIV, since XI's story is now finished.

I don't think that is going to happen. Anything FFXIV could say about the multiverse as a whole can have no bearing on earlier or later games (like FFIX's mothercrystal, it would still have to let the other games keep their own crossover rules), so I'd honestly rather they didn't try at all to explain the deliberately unexplained. There's already no one rule that could possibly explain everything... unless they go the Dissidia route and have all the "crossover" characters pulled from some specific MacGuffin that doesn't have any actual connection to the games in question.

Say whatever you want about Nomura and his love of crossovers, he's always been very careful not to try and set anything in stone about the 'verse. It's better that way, I think.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

I recall a comment a long long time ago stating that we would get some kind of explanation on the wider universe of the franchise at some point and that the crossover events would make more sense then.

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I believe we've already got that explanation in the form of the lore text for the Wind-up Brickman:

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One unexpected side effect of the Calamity has been the significant increase in aetherial rifts appearing throughout the realm. As a result, strange creatures not of this world have been popping in and out of existence without warning. one of those being the bizarre brickman.

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I think it's perfectly valid for each game to have it's own rules regarding to what extent it is or is not connected with the others. As an MMO, this game is going to have events, and more crossovers, than a lot of the single player games will. Therefore, it's sort of made to fit within Hydallyn lore, that there can be periodic aetherial rifts or whatever.

According to FFXIV, Lightning showed up in Eorzea a few times. According to XIII, she did not. What's (at least somewhat) cannon to one game doesn't have to be cannon to the other, even when talking about a cross between the two. A more extreme example is that a game like Dissidia can bring together characters from a lot of games because Dissidia's own lore allows that sort of flexibility without regard for whether the games those characters come from would allow it. (XIV at least makes some vague attempt at explaining crossovers.)

With the single player games in the series, crossovers aren't event-based, like some of the ones we have here. They're simply characters, beasts, features, or themes that resemble those from earlier games. That type of crossover (which also exists here of course) is generally considered a parallel evolution sort of thing, not actually the same thing from one game to another, nor even related (in-universe), just looking similar. In any cases that are given in-universe background explanations, they'll be different in each game where they appear (like the chocobos origin in Ishgard). That also explains why things may often be similar in different games, but not necessarily exactly the same.

(Of course, we as players recognize the reason for so many similarities being SE's attempt to tie the various games of the franchise together, but that's going on in our own universe, not any of the in-game universes.)

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Originally Posted by Fenral

I don't think that is going to happen. Anything FFXIV could say about the multiverse as a whole can have no bearing on earlier or later games (like FFIX's mothercrystal, it would still have to let the other games keep their own crossover rules), so I'd honestly rather they didn't try at all to explain the deliberately unexplained.

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They could always just canonize The Great Multiverse Theory where The Void is the oy thing linking the worlds to each other. <troll face>

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

They could always just canonize The Great Multiverse Theory where The Void is the oy thing linking the worlds to each other. <troll face>

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You think you want to provoke me, but you have wisely changed your mind. Now you are backing away slowly, relieved at your personal restraint in avoiding that dreadful mistake, and the rest of the Lore forum thanks you for your discretion.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

You think you want to provoke me, but you have wisely changed your mind. Now you are backing away slowly, relieved at your personal restraint in avoiding that dreadful mistake, and the rest of the Lore forum thanks you for your discretion.

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Bah, just a wise crack Fen. I know you hate that theory as bad as I hate the "Cause Allag" mcguffin in Eorzea.

Tbh, I myself think that would be a universe lore mistake. Not to mention, I lose my favorite wise crack that way.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Bah, just a wise crack Fen. I know you hate that theory as bad as I hate the "Cause Allag" mcguffin in Eorzea.

Tbh, I myself think that would be a universe lore mistake. Not to mention, I lose my favorite wise crack that way.

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Aww, I know. That's why I replied with a Jedi Mind Trick. :P

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Aww, I know. That's why I replied with a Jedi Mind Trick. :P

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Speaking of Allag though, what do you want to be there's something in Azys Lla that can open "That Door" that your particular man crush is behind?