A3S (AST Solo Heal)

Not my video, just passing it on to those who might like to see it. Take what you will from it~

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Not my video, just passing it on to those who might like to see it. Take what you will from it~

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I think we can agree at this point that AST's heals are legit.

It always have been
Even more after the 3.07 boost

No, no! This AST is clearly being carried by... by... BY...

...the wind of the dps

I'd like to see a solo Noct stance. I don't think anyone has talked about Diurnal healing being a problem.

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Originally Posted by WolfKid

I think we can agree at this point that AST's heals are legit.

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Ever since the 3.07 buffs, AST heals have been legit. It just requires a different train of thought compared to WHM or SCH that others may not be used to.

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Originally Posted by GarnetTribal

I'd like to see a solo Noct stance. I don't think anyone has talked about Diurnal healing being a problem.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I've heard of a SCH solo heal A3S yet. If there hasn't been a successful recorded attempt yet on the SCH front, not quite sure how Nocturnal AST would be able to handle it as its kit is nowhere near as powerful as the SCH kit is.

That was stressful to watch. =A=
I kept yelling at them to use Synastry. >w>

It's definitely an impressive video, but citing it as evidence for holistic class balance is a bit disingenuous.
I don't think anyone reasonable has ever said Diurnal can't heal things with a full highly experienced group that severely over-gears the content.

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Originally Posted by Mibgestalt

It's definitely an impressive video, but citing it as evidence for holistic class balance is a bit disingenuous.
I don't think anyone reasonable has ever said Diurnal can't heal things with a full highly experienced group that severely over-gears the content.

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Indeed, I just thought I'd post it because of the impressiveness of it. Class balance is always a separate issue entirely.

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

That was stressful to watch. =A=
I kept yelling at them to use Synastry. >w>

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Another thing I just noticed, did they RR or Spread their cards at all?
Is using your cards raw more effective then holding them or is it a play style thing?

People have said that Diurnal can't solo it. People have said that double AST can't handle it as well. The AST hate is real in this forum.

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

Another thing I just noticed, did they RR or Spread their cards at all?
Is using your cards raw more effective then holding them or is it a play style thing?

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In this case, I am actually assuming it's a stress thing. Very busy here, not a lot of time to consider.

His lack of Synastry is borderline offensive but it was a pretty legit clear. That hand phase was interesting, woulda thought he would have wanted to save Collective for that.

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

Another thing I just noticed, did they RR or Spread their cards at all?
Is using your cards raw more effective then holding them or is it a play style thing?

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The times you RR Spire/Ewer before a filled Spread just to draw Bole/Ewer/Spire do make it more tempting every day to just ignore RR at times..

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Originally Posted by TatoRazzino

People have said that Diurnal can't solo it. People have said that double AST can't handle it as well. The AST hate is real in this forum.

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Just remember, cards are crap, heals are crap, damage is crap, cooldowns are crap and it is only there for style points.
#HealerForumsAndFFXIVRedditAutumn2015

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

His lack of Synastry is borderline offensive but it was a pretty legit clear. That hand phase was interesting, woulda thought he would have wanted to save Collective for that.

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I was thinking their intention was "well maybe I can show people I don't need Synastry". But yeah on the split hands it's a perfect skill. Of course 210 gear level softens up a lot of damage.


As for AST love, well there is the typical salt on reddit too. "Oh AST must overgear", "they got ballad", etc.

Ohhh i seen this on reddit xD

The guy is very over geared for this as he as completed alex savage as a different healer to get the gear

So in all im not very suprised go back and try it when it first come out when we all was in 180-190 gear. And not 210

But i still have not seen an AST complete AS4 yet without being a whm/sch to get gear in the first place lol

But yeah this will cause alot of salt and rants on the forum,

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Originally Posted by Yhisa

But i still have not seen an AST complete AS4 yet without being a whm/sch to get gear in the first place lol

But yeah this will cause alot of salt and rants on the forum,

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Staris completed A4S server first here as AST. Partner is SCH. Early floors cleared in first days, and before AST buffs, etc. The salt tastes good.

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Originally Posted by AzureFlare

Just remember, cards are crap, heals are crap, damage is crap, cooldowns are crap and it is only there for style points.
#HealerForumsAndFFXIVRedditAutumn2015

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Just because there are some interesting kills in an already overgeared status, it doesn't mean the AST is on par with the other two.

The next time we can look how the AST performs will be at the release of Patch 3.2, when the HC teams start to run for their world first kills.

It does mean it's on par. The class is fine. Deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Zaj_Quilos

It does mean it's on par. The class is fine. Deal with it.

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3.2 will be the first real test on AST. with its changes in 3.07 it will be the first time it can be used at full potential in progression based raids due to that and the fact that people will have had more time with the class to understand its nuances. Also, if 3.2 savage alexander does away with the severly strict dps checks and focuses more on mechanical perfection, we may see a raid when any combination of healers is very viable, instead of the current tier which really does focus on the need for SCH+ WHM or AST.

Trying to have people understand the fundamental differences between progression raiding and challenge runs when the content is well-known and overgeared is a lost cause on these forums. Twintania was being healed by Conjurers back when it was on the tail end of its shelf life, this must mean CNJ is a fine progression healer and on par with WHM by that logic. Job Crystals are overrated.

Yeah, if the content is easy-ish in 3.2 it won't matter. Balance never matters at the lower end of the spectrum.

Healing was never Diurnal AST's major flaw anyway, especially after 3.07 but on the other hand we're on a board when people are still arguing for/against DPSing as a healer so this is lost to them.

Still an amazing performance by an AST who wasn't even utilizing their whole kit.

As others have stated, I agree that the real test for AST debate will be when the new tier of Alex (Savage) comes out in 3.2 (or perhaps 3.23 if they continue with the same trend of "normal first") and see which groups take which compositions.

At the moment, AST has the capacity to replace WHM in a WHM/SCH composition and both bring specific niches to the group. Whether the end game groups find they need the 3% mind boost and heavier AoE heals versus the party augmentation and single target bursts will probably decide which one is more preferred - and that will depend on how S-E designs their fights.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

Just because there are some interesting kills in an already overgeared status, it doesn't mean the AST is on par with the other two.

The next time we can look how the AST performs will be at the release of Patch 3.2, when the HC teams start to run for their world first kills.

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I'm all up for looking how they perform where it matters most, but it always seems to be black or white when it comes to some, especially Reddit, even in a time and content it doesn't matter. Like, there's still a middle ground where it can clear content just fine without penalizing the party, and then sillies still insist it will. The amount of people selling AST short without experimenting is insane.

People cleared A1S and A2S with AST on the first week. People said they were carried by their co-healers and that it hurt the party. Some people who switched from AST were astonished to see that you could use Synastry during the double prey mechanic, for example, or that you could use CO to extend LA. AST wasn't being played right, and people still cleared Savage when it was launched. After a few weeks, SE buffed it. But the crying and bashing still exists. now an AST solo healed one of the hardest fights in the game, one with heavy AoE healing (AST's weakness) and people start saying shit sbout overgearing and knowing mechanics. The thing is: if you can solo heal it over geared, it means you can do it with a healing partner undergeared. That's it, there's no excuse anymore. The next raid content will not see high end groups using AST in progression, because WHM/SCH is more balanced AND it is safer. Playing AST is gambling, and people should understand it if they ever want to play the job properly. No party in their right mind is going to make that bet if they're aiming for world/server first. We may see clears with AST, but that doesn't mean they'll take it for their mechanics learning runs, so please stop with this nonsense "we'll see how AST is on 3.2". We won't. The first turns in savage were cleared with AST and that wasn't enough for people to see it as viable. In fact, AST could get a buff that raises their AoE potency to 900 with no MP cost and 1s cooldown, and people will still bash it in the forums because the group hysteria is real in this game and AST is already branded as the crappy healer.

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Originally Posted by AzureFlare

I'm all up for looking how they perform where it matters most, but it always seems to be black or white when it comes to some, especially Reddit, even in a time and content it doesn't matter. Like, there's still a middle ground where it can clear content just fine without penalizing the party, and then sillies still insist it will. The amount of people selling AST short without experimenting is insane.

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Yeah, it's true. Those people are likely the ones that never set foot in savage, probably only have casual leveling experiences at AST and not being good at the job, probably never cleared a savage floor as an AST or healer, and/or never decided to have an AST in the raid. Mainly those with less than ideal experiences with the job. So it's just black and white to them. Short of having AST at a world-first level, there really won't be much to change their mind.

Plus this whole "not on par" statement is getting old because it's pretty clear at this point if anyone is selling a job short at this point of the cycle because of a 3% MND buff, some more potent regens among other minor differences, it's not the job. It's either the party and/or player. Oh well, their loss.

I'll just re-quote this since it seemed to have gotten lost in the thoughts of a few in the past few posts:

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Originally Posted by Mibgestalt

It's definitely an impressive video, but citing it as evidence for holistic class balance is a bit disingenuous.

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This video does not showcase any validity to AST's viability. Instead, this video show cases a high level of skill and fight understanding. If this video was suppose to validate viability, everyone would be saying SCH would be unviable because there hasn't been a SCH-solo kill for A3S. But the vast majority of healers know that SCH currently sits on the highest rung of the healing totem pole and that the SCH kit isn't good to solo heal this particular fight.

Anyone with any healing sense will understand that AST is now a much more viable healer than it was on its inception. With those changes, the end game hardcore raiders will be evaluating every option available to them when making that World First race and decide their best course of action. It's why you see DRKs being so popular - because the World First raiders used it because the job maximized their chances at success. They will make the same judgements come 3.2X with the second tier of Alex (Savage) and we'll see if they judge AST worthy of World First praise. If not, well, at least we'll see more ASTs being used now thanks to the buffs it received.

A note to the pro-ASTs posting here - the amount of toxicity a few of you are spewing does much disservice to your argument. If you want to encourage healthy and forward thinking discussion to push healers towards your side, you'll need to do so with calm discussion and logic - not anger and wild emotions. You are showing you are no different from the toxic and baseless comments some anti-AST posters have shown in the past and thus should not be taken seriously. Just some food for thought.

On the subject of progression, particularly world progression, people may not realize that even world first groups still lack an extremely intimate, memorized flow of every cleave and AoE until once they've basically cleared the fight, if not until they've literally cleared the fight and start farming it in the following weeks. Especially when talking about learning a fight there is no video for and you are discovering it as you go.

You think groups aren't gonna take the healer with Assize, Asylum, Benediction, constant Divine Seal action, a nearly guaranteed hit Medica II compared to 15y AH, Cure III for when there are mechanic into mechanics, Presence of Mind to try and salvage hard healing areas? Of course they are, while learning. WHM is so flipping simple and easy and versatile compared to AST. It does its job, healing with some backup DPS during off-time, nearly as good the second time seeing a phase as it does the 100th time, only a more defined fight knowledge level lets you really hit the top.

Meanwhile AST needs more strict timelines to make use of all its skills. 90s Collective which you have to plan for the group to get hit, 90s Synastry which while definitely the stronger tank healer is easy to waste its potential, random cards, many less OH SHIT options especially in the AoE department. AST's fine once you know a fight to the T and can plan everything out, but learning a fight with it? Yeah you're wasting your time. It's like having a WAR MT in coil progression, most groups didn't do that either blind or in early progression because it gets far more punished for lack of fight knowledge, despite it possibly being better or worse than PLD MT once the fights are on farm and every cleave and tank buster are memorized exactly. You wanted the tank who almost always had a CD to spare, multiple excess OH SHIT buttons, a shield in case of a mess-up with a chance to live a Revelation or Death Sentence.

I've been playing AST a lot recently and I've come to appreciate its strengths. I don't think it's purely outclassed by WHM, I think they've both got ups and downs. That said, going into a fight blind, or even with knowing it but not having a CD rotation planned for AST? You're gonna have a bad time compared to WHM. Healing has to be a joke for a blind AST to succeed as well. Basically the only scenario I see world firsters using AST, as they are currently tuned, is if there is an A3S situation where eventually the world firsters know the fight well enough after 400+ pulls but the DPS checks are too tight in minimal gear, and honestly I don't think they're going that route in FFXIV anymore.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

A note to the pro-ASTs posting here - the amount of toxicity a few of you are spewing does much disservice to your argument. If you want to encourage healthy and forward thinking discussion to push healers towards your side, you'll need to do so with calm discussion and logic - not anger and wild emotions. You are showing you are no different from the toxic and baseless comments some anti-AST posters have shown in the past and thus should not be taken seriously. Just some food for thought.

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That's not true at all. I've been accused of hacking the game (just look at the forums and you'll find it) when I said I used Synastry to heal the prey mechanic in A1S pre-AST buff. Reason and logic only work to a certain extent, and group hysteria ignores all logic. I repeat: people cleared the fights with AST pre-buff, but it wasn't considered viable for Savage. I'm not even mentioning world first race, I'm saying that people considered a clear impossible with AST. Even with video proof of the clears. Logic has no place in any argument in here, and the multiple threads about the same thing show that. I'm sorry, but the "toxicity" pro-ASTs are showing is not toxicity at all, but irony. There's no way to convince anyone about anything. Yhisa, for exampl, said that it was impossible for an AST/AST combo to clear A3S. Now an AST solo healed it, and Yhisa came here saying "ofc they're overgeared". There's always going to be an excuse. People will see what they want to see, and irony is the only way to respond to that.

Wow i never new AST was disliked like this. I thought there heals were at a good point but they're not? I never noticed. Though i say this, i never even set foot in savage
(づ⸌_⸍)づ

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Originally Posted by WolfKid

Wow i never new AST was disliked like this. I thought there heals were at a good point but they're not? I never noticed. Though i say this, i never even set foot in savage
(づ⸌_⸍)づ

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They are. When savage was launched AST was nerfed (still viable, but not as strong), but now it's fine. AST is better than WHM in A1S and A2S imo, because Synastry and cards are valuable in there. In A3S and A4S WHM is better than AST. SCH remains the best off-healer in any savage floor.

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Originally Posted by TatoRazzino

They are. When savage was launched AST was nerfed

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WAIT IT WAS NERFED?! ⸮ʘᗝʘ? What part of it was was nerfed, cause i must've seriously missed it in the patch notes...

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Originally Posted by WolfKid

WAIT IT WAS NERFED?! ⸮ʘᗝʘ? What part of it was was nerfed, cause i must've seriously missed it in the patch notes...

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I think they mean pre-buffed. Can kind of slightly be described as nerfed, as the devs said they were concerned about releasing a powerful healer so they tempered its power at release.

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Originally Posted by WolfKid

WAIT IT WAS NERFED?! ⸮ʘᗝʘ? What part of it was was nerfed, cause i must've seriously missed it in the patch notes...

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For future reference, since there are new players that started playing AST after the 3.07 adjustments and have no idea what the discussion is about:

Overall potency adjustments:

1) Benefic was 380 potency instead of 400;
2) Benefic II was 620 potency instead of 650;
3) Helios was 290 potency instead of 300;
4) Aspected Helios was 140 potency potency with ten 50 potency ticks (640 combined potency) in Diurnal instead of 200 potency with ten 40 potency ticks (600 combined potency);
5) Aspected Benefic's regen effect in Diurnal was 100 potency instead of 140;
6) Aspected Benefic's shield effect in Nocturnal was 100% instead of 130%;
7) Collective Unconscious ticks were 200 potency instead of 150 when in Diurnal (but it didn't apply the damage reduction buff);

Cooldown changes

1) Synastry didn't give a healing buff potency and the heals cast on yourself wouldn't heal the person with Synastry on. The cooldown was 120s instead of 90s. The healing the target received was 50% of the main heal value instead of 40%;
2) Celestial Opposition had a longer cooldown;
3) Collective Unconscious had different effects according to the Sect: Regen in Diurnal, Damage Reduction in Nocturnal. They combined the effect in 3.07 and added the sustained regen effect when people leave the bubble.

Card buffs

1) The Bole, The Balance and The Arrow lasted for 15s instead of 30s.

And yes, it was launched in a nerfed state. AST's toolkit can outclass the other two healers if left unchecked, so they launched it with lower potencies and long cooldowns to see its behavior in actual gaming scenarios. With the data they got from its usage in Savage, which cooldowns were used and which were ignored etc., they adjusted it. They're still watching it and will adjust it even more if they have to, but they're being pretty careful with the balance.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Stuff

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That, to be honest, is the sad part, and what you said about AST is completely true in regards of how hard stuff can be to utilize given how the class innately works. Once you optimize and get a group that can work around the optimization, it works wonders. You named Collective yourself, and that is one of the offenders that shows a great example: It can definitely outdo Asylum and I'd argue in an organised group it will be better than Asylum. A 750 potency regen that can be extended, including the defense component (because lolinvisibletimers, extendable even if only for a short time) that needs a maximum of 3 seconds to be applied compared to a 800 regen that needs 24 seconds of your time? That's a pretty good case of 'where context really matters', but a lot of people flat out disregard CU and the power it can bring. The only thing easier about blind AST I'd argue is dancing while healing single target or dual target, for Diurnal anyway, and a more frequent but less powerful 'oh shit' (though WHM has a small one and a big one for that).
At the same time I'd also argue there's nothing wrong with playing a job that isn't capable of world's first because of its innate unsafety, but is capable of doing content at same ilvls depending on the structure of the fight.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

A note to the pro-ASTs posting here - the amount of toxicity a few of you are spewing does much disservice to your argument. If you want to encourage healthy and forward thinking discussion to push healers towards your side, you'll need to do so with calm discussion and logic - not anger and wild emotions. You are showing you are no different from the toxic and baseless comments some anti-AST posters have shown in the past and thus should not be taken seriously. Just some food for thought.

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Some posts aren't meant to be taken seriously, and some are. I'm all up for playing nice really, but if even math is being senselessly bashed by some people, threads being removed/buried while there is some real food for thought going on and little, petty rules being applied to AST without applying them to WHM/SCH, at the very least the ''pro-ASTs' should be able to make a joke once in a while. Tossing around the word toxicity so quickly is arguably even more offensive, 'holier than thou'. But fine, if you insist the words used are too spicy or people come across as too heated to the point you'd mark them toxic, I'll oblige and simmer down, since it was hardly the intent. Some calming green tea and rice cakes for everyone and back to the real discussions now (no sarcasm)?

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Originally Posted by TatoRazzino

That's not true at all. I've been accused of hacking the game (just look at the forums and you'll find it) when I said I used Synastry to heal the prey mechanic in A1S pre-AST buff. Reason and logic only work to a certain extent, and group hysteria ignores all logic. I repeat: people cleared the fights with AST pre-buff, but it wasn't considered viable for Savage. I'm not even mentioning world first race, I'm saying that people considered a clear impossible with AST. Even with video proof of the clears. Logic has no place in any argument in here, and the multiple threads about the same thing show that. I'm sorry, but the "toxicity" pro-ASTs are showing is not toxicity at all, but irony. There's no way to convince anyone about anything. Yhisa, for exampl, said that it was impossible for an AST/AST combo to clear A3S. Now an AST solo healed it, and Yhisa came here saying "ofc they're overgeared". There's always going to be an excuse. People will see what they want to see, and irony is the only way to respond to that.

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Yep, I was in the same boat too in this forum. I defended AST in A1S during the first days along with several others, going line-by-line how we handle the major stuff. Mentioning how our skills were pretty much on-par despite the potency differences and being arguably better than WHM in some of the mechanics during the i185+ pre-buff times. Things that still cannot be disputed today like Synastry for the double prey, nor can White Mage disable/weak-virus their oppressor, or lightspeed being able to practically make one set of entire double prey/buster mechanic almost completely trivial. Out of the gate, healers that never cleared the early floors judging my knowledge of the AST job that came straight from the floor. I wasn't being toxic either, it's just us defending how the job is fit for savage from first-person experience. It wasn't a "AST needs no buffs" statement, it was just being realistic. Maybe some people probably thought that any veil of success of the AST job in savage would probably give the developers hints not to buff the job too much or something.

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Originally Posted by AzureFlare

CU + world firsts

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CU is situationally extremely powerful. Asylum is effective in more situations. I agree that if people try to compare them directly they're not going to see how good CU can be.

Part of the reason I think is, yes with group organization CU could be absurdly good, but with the current "gotta deeps fast" meta, catering to the AST's toolkit even among expert teams doesn't seem to be the top priority. And especially for players that do more party finder type experiences, AST's toolkit looks (and probably is) a fair deal harder to use than WHM's.

As for balance debates, part of the reason I think the scrutiny and emotions get so high in this case is because the AST/WHM spot is high pressure job, and unlike a comparison between say BRD/MCH where there are 3 other role spots to make up for slight imbalances, AST and WHM differences are more in a vacuum, even if they aren't gigantic.

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Some calming green tea and rice cakes for everyone and back to the real discussions now (no sarcasm)?

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People get way too worked up on both sides of this argument, honestly. It's not really my business if people want to hold grudges towards other long-term members here, but when a newer player enters the discussion and voices their concerns about the AST and is immediately met with some variation of "Ugh, ANOTHER thread about this? AST is fine" and "Git gud", it's not really doing a lot for the class.
I think no matter what side of the fence you are on, you can agree that the general public stigma towards the class combined with the difference in playstyle compared to WHM and relative complexity of interaction between abilities is a barrier that's doing no favors on either side. Unless for whatever reason you prefer the class be played less, which will result in less people discovering how to play it effectively and maybe come up with new strategies, which is bad.

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Originally Posted by AzureFlare

Some posts aren't meant to be taken seriously, and some are. I'm all up for playing nice really, but if even math is being senselessly bashed by some people, threads being removed/buried while there is some real food for thought going on and little, petty rules being applied to AST without applying them to WHM/SCH, at the very least the ''pro-ASTs' should be able to make a joke once in a while. Tossing around the word toxicity so quickly is arguably even more offensive, 'holier than thou'. But fine, if you insist the words used are too spicy or people come across as too heated to the point you'd mark them toxic, I'll oblige and simmer down, since it was hardly the intent. Some calming green tea and rice cakes for everyone and back to the real discussions now (no sarcasm)?

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Funny enough, it's not your posts I was referring too in this capacity. I like the way you present your arguments. And to be fair, yes, it's not just the pro-AST side, so I do apologize for isolating that side. There are quite a few extreme, asinine, and belligerent posters on both sides of the fence that do need to simmer down.

KIf the community can't handle advanced and more complex jobs, then the design possibilities for this game are going to be drastically reduced. The biggest problem is not even the new players coming to voice their concerns, but the follow up. In a thread about how to properly play the job, people would come bashing at any strategy posted in there. There's absolutely no way to respond nicely to that, when people put a lot of effort in destroying threads because they believe that the job sucks. Call me paranoid, but that's what I see happening in most of the threads in the forum. I love the job, I love how complex it is and I love how they could add identity and variation while using similar spells. I also love how simple and powerful WHM is and how smart you have to be to manage your stacks and pet as SCH. I want the next healer to be complex as well, not simpler. There is one simple healer already. And I actually don't mind few people being able to master the job and I don't mind if people prefer the other two; I would be sad if WHM or SCH were getting hate. I just wish people would invest more time actually learning the job, you know? Since it was launched I did a lot of math, a lot of theorycrafting, I tested a lot of stuff and read guides to every single job in the game to learn how to use AST's toolkit. I came to the forum to see people sharing experiences and all I got was bashing and being called a liar. I left the forum after getting banned for a heated discussion, and I decided to come back to see if there were any posts about Diadem gear. I wanted to see what people were getting to figure out stats caps and stuff like that. Then what did I see? The same bashing and crying and being called a liar and having my personal experiences as AST being discarded. This is tiring. I only keep coming back to see AzureFlare's posts, because I learm from them. So I'm sorry if I'm beligerant, but there's no other way to respond ignorant people who make an effort not only to stay ignorant, but to prevent other people from learning something a lot of people (me included) are trying to teach.