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[Opener/Tips/Advices] How to play PLD
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12-08-2015, 09:34 PMPaka[Opener/Tips/Advices] How to play PLD
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12-08-2015, 09:55 PMSapphidia
The Paladin opener can vary a lot. It's based on whether you intend to tank the boss in Sword Oath for a lot of time, whether you have a Ninja in your party, and how well geared you are compared to the rest of the team (ie, are you struggling for threat vs super well geared dps or are you in no issue of ever losing it).
Paladins have three combos. Rage of Halone combo does the most threat of course, but the highest DPS is a rotation of Goring Blade -> Royal Authority -> Royal Authority. It's the judgement of the paladin as to how many Rage of Halones they use.
Your off-gcd moves are Fight or Flight, Spirits Within, Circle of Scorn and Shield Swipe. In general you want to use these on cooldown. You can fit TWO circles of scorn (25s cd) in the duration of one Fight or Flight (lasts 30s), but only one Spirits Within. You also want to pop your Fight or Flight just before the third move in your first or second combo rather than before a fast blade, as this ensures you get the highest number of "strong" moves buffed by it.
I wouldnt recommend learning a fixed rotation for pulls, as they vary so much depending on encounter. Even having a Shield Swipe proc happening early on in a fight can change your opener a fair bit. You just need to be flexible.
As long as you try to ensure that you a.) using Goring blade once every 3 combos to keep it up, b.) pop Fight or Flight after a savage/riot and c.) pop Circle of Scorn shortly after each FoF so you can get two of them buffed by a single Fight or Flight, you'll be golden. Open with a Shield Lob, use a Spirits Within early and then use it on cooldown, pop Shield Swipe every time it's up, use Sheltron on cooldown to force more Shield Swipe procs -unless- you need to save Sheltron for specific predictable big physical hits.
After that it's just personal decision as to how many Royal Authority combos you substitute for Rage of Halone combos for more threat or to keep the debuff up. Just monitor threat levels and if doing Goring/Royal/Royal isnt looking like it's enough to keep you ahead on threat then swap a few Royals for Halones.
Oh, and once you're 60 never -EVER- use Fracture. Ever. Don't even put it on your bars. -
12-08-2015, 10:32 PMUmbreon_skystorm
I dunno if it helps but when I'm tanking, I generally use my openner just Rage of halone combo until Fight or flight goes down, then I simply don't need to worry about aggro almost my entire fight and I use the Goring Blade and Double royal Althority combo, I can even change my oath after that and I can still hold my aggro without the necessity of an Rage of Halone... but it depends on your gear compared to the dps.
I could say more about the class but Sapphidia covered almost everything I use as a PLD (Expect my openner) -
12-08-2015, 10:51 PMnexas506
I like the classic shield lob-> flash -> circle of scorn-> flash for trash mobs. Then cycle thriugh my enimy list and use ROH when necessary.
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12-08-2015, 10:53 PMDonjo
Openers
Highest Damage: Shield Lob(Spirits Within*) -> Fast Blade -> Riot Blade(Fight or Flight) -> Goring Blade(Circle of Scorn) -> Royal Authority Combo -> Royal Authority Combo -> Goring Blade Combo -> FoF ends.
*The timing of this use depends on how close to the enemy you are when you lob. If you can fit it in without delaying Fast Blade, go ahead. Otherwise, use it after Fast Blade.
If you're tanking something, at least one of those Authority combos should be Halone. After the first Goring Blade, just use the off GCDs on cooldown, with Shield Swipe being a priority most of the time because it can only be used for a limited time when it procs. If you want to maximize enmity(threat) instead of damage, replace as many combos as you deem necessary with Halone, but do try to keep Goring Blade up if you can. It is your most powerful weaponskill and therefore helps with both DPS and enmity.
Fighting high initial burst from DPS: It is generally considered to be a poor use of Fight or Flight to apply it just before the initial Shield Lob. However, if your DPS are bursting hard enough that you cannot establish enmity quickly enough otherwise, it may be necessary to do so if you don't have anything else to help out(ie. a Ninja, more gear, etc.).
Basic in-battle rotations
What you're doing in battle depends on the current situation. Are you Tanking right now? If so, how much of an enmity lead do you have? Would Halone's Strength Down debuff be useful for survival?
If Halone is Necessary(for enmity or Debuff): Goring Combo -> Authority Combo -> Halone Combo -> Repeat
If Halone isn't Necessary(High enmity lead or Off-tanking): Goring Combo -> Authority Combo -> Authority Combo -> Repeat
If you're really behind on threat: Goring Combo -> Halone Combo -> Halone Combo -> Repeat
Don't be afraid to apply Halone while off-tanking if it would truly be helpful. However, it will not frequently make that difference. With time you'll learn how to make that call.
Tips
- As Sapphida posited above, do try to save Fight or Flight for use right after the second hit of a combo. If you really can, try to save it for just before a use of Goring Blade. However, don't leave it off of its cooldown for very long; you want to use it as much as possible no matter what.
- Never ignore Shield Swipe. It's off the global cooldown - which means free damage! - and it carries an enmity multiplier. Paladin already gets the short end of the stick in enmity generation, so anything will help.
- Unless you need Sheltron for a specific attack, pop it whenever both it and Shield Swipe are off cooldown to get that extra attack in.
- Further regarding Sheltron use, it is as instant as a Paladin's other cooldowns. If the attack you're watching for has a cast bar, wait until you see the bar to activate Sheltron. This way, you'll block that specific attack and not the autoattack right before it.
- When Flashing a group of mobs, try to stagger your Flash use to let the Blind last as long as possible. This is, however, rendered void if your healer is a White Mage casting Holy at the beginning of the pull, as the mobs will be stunned during most of the duration of Blind.
- Convalescence is a friend. If you have a healer that is providing consistent regens to you(White Mage or Diurnal Astrologian), try to time its duration to fall during the time that regen would be reapplied.
Advice
- Don't ignore your Utility! It may seem situational or maybe even downright useless at times, but keep those abilities on your bar. Opportunities to gain mileage from them pop up more often than one might think; you just have to keep your eye out. Ignoring them entirely is ignoring what makes a Paladin a Paladin and will result in a much more boring gameplay experience.
- Use Cooldowns on Trash. In fact, you should use them very often in all situations unless there is something in an encounter that you are specifically saving them for(ie. A Tank Buster). Even then, keep an eye on times. If you find openings to use your cooldowns while still having them ready when they're truly necessary, use them!
- Don't get too down if a fight is solely throwing Magic Damage at you. Fights with this configuration are a minority in the game.
EDIT: Adding a specific Spirits Within timing to the initial few hits. -
12-09-2015, 04:29 AMAlexiIvaniskavichYou should weave Spirits Within on this opener, as it is oGCD and scales off your health, I generally find the earlier you pop it, the better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Donjo
Shield Lob > Fast Blade > Riot Blade > [fight or flight] > [Spirits Within] > Goring Blade > [Circle of Scorn] > RA combo > RA combo > Goring Blade
If you are in a fight where you need to keep the strenght down debuff up on constantly, you can RoH combo > Goring > RA > RoH....
Always shield swipe on proc. Never fight or flight just before jumps. Spirits Within as often as possible, but try to avoid using it before being healed up after a tank buster.
Defensive cooldowns are on a fight to fight basis. On trash mob pulls, you will save your healer a headache or two when you use your cooldowns. Combining skills like awareness + bullwark are solid moves. I like to combine foresight + convalasence. Shelltron on CD is usually safest - there are exceptions to this. Sentinel and Rampart can be used independently, or together depending on the damage incoming. (HCP I am looking at you).
Clemency - If the tank buster has a cast bar, begin your cast after you see the bar appear. With some practice you will time the heal to land AFTER you get the damage from the TB, and avoid interruption.
Cover - most common use is to absorb someone elses aoe damage (if physical) or when the boss targets another player assuming they aren't more than 15 lalas away. This one is also fun to make DPS panic at the sight of a tether :P
Tempered Will - If the fight has a knockback, use this. always
Bloodbath - on cooldown Exception: just before jumps
^ - this can never be emphasized enoughQuote:
Originally Posted by Donjo
Yes, Alexander raid is a lot of magic damage. Each tank has the kit to mitigate any damage, you just need to learn how to work them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Donjo
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12-09-2015, 04:35 AMSapphidiaI actually hit Spirits Within straight after my Shield Lob (or after the first Fast Blade depending on how quickly I reach the boss on the pull relative to the GCD from the Shield Lob). Although it's happening before the Fight or Flight, it has a 30 second CD and thus WILL be up again in time to get the -second- Spirits Within buffed by the Fight or Flight before it runs out.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich
Using Spirits so early on the pull also gives a little bit more security in the event of a blackmage or dragoon opening critfest, and being used at the start means you should still be full health for max Spirits damage as you'll have the Stoneskin/Adlo from the prepull still on you. -
12-09-2015, 04:48 AMDonjoDon't worry. I didn't forget about it. It just isn't mentioned specifically by name. See below:Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich
However, Sapphidia brings up a good point that highlights my occasional ability to fail at math. Using the ability almost immediately does allow it to still be up during the first Flight or Flight, which is what truly matters in the end. I'll update my post momentarily to add that "almost immediately" use.Quote:
Originally Posted by Donjo
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12-09-2015, 05:00 AMAlexiIvaniskavich
@ Sapphida - That is also a great time for that skill. Personally I hadn't thought of that as I hadn't experienced hate issues that quickly before i get to Riot blade, but this is a nice quick fix to that short term hate grab.
@Donjo - my apologies, you did mention this. I have spent enough time on the monk forums reviewing rotations, that if i don't see it in the same thread line format, I tend to forget it. -
12-09-2015, 07:34 AMFebrusIt should be emphasized that this opener (while fantastic for Pld dmg) is more of an OT opener. It can be used while MT, but I don't recommend it until you are over-geared for the content and only if your Dps are lacking.Pld has the lowest enmity gen of all three tanks, so even though Goring Blade and Royal Authority have wonderful potency, it is possible for the high burst dmg from Dps or War's to steal enmity from you if you skip Rage of Halone. So take Donjo's advice to heart about establishing enmity before prioritizing dmg.Quote:
Originally Posted by Donjo
More food for thought is the type of fight you are going into and how much dmg you expect to mitigate (especially physical). A standard MT opener for Dmg mitigation/threat management (rather than Dps output) would be:
Shield lob > (FoF - Bloodbath + CoS) Fast Blade > (Spirits Within) Savage Blade > (Shelltron and use Shield Swipe as it becomes available, if it hasn't already) RoH (apply strength down debuff)
Depending on your enmity, gear level, and the skill level of the OT/Dps team, you may need to apply the RoH combo a second time. However, I find that once is usually enough to secure hate unless there are some extenuating circumstances. That Shield Swipe is essential though. Make sure to use it. After your initial pull you can rotate to:
Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Goring Blade (applies DoT) > Fast Blade > Savage Blade > RoH (Re-apply str down debuff) > Fast Blade > Savage Blade > Royal Authority.
This might seem excessive, but again, this is an opener designed for prioritizing hate and Dmg mitigation, NOT DPS. The way this rotation works (Basically RoH > GB > RoH > RA > GB > RoH > RA etc) is to ensure that the Str down debuff never falls off. The timer for the str down debuff does not survive 3 complete combos. So it is necessary to apply it again before using RA. After the initial pull, you'll notice that your rotation falls into a rhythm (RA > GB > RoH > repeat), during which both your DoT and RoH debuff never expire (unless boss fight mechanics force an interruption of some kind).
You'll find a rotation like this comes in handy for fights that require high physical dmg mitigation (Ie: Thordan Extreme). You'll be suffering a Dps drop, but, in all seriousness, if your Dps team can't meet the Dps checks then you have a bigger problem than your tanking on your hands.
I should also note that this rotation grants additional enmity over a more aggressive GB > RA rotation, which frees you up on hate generation earlier in the fight. Meaning that when Fight or Flight becomes available again on CD, you can drop Shield Oath and swap to Sword Oath to take greater advantage of the Dps increase without fearing any loss in hate.
I'd mention the occasions in which RoH is not necessary or the str down debuff is not useful, but I think Donjo's original post has that covered pretty well. Use your judgment. As you gain more experience as a Pld in the different boss fights you'll know when and where to take advantage of the different rotations. -
12-09-2015, 09:12 AMRanceIronheart
I joined to post this so please excuse my poor formatting.
Establish aggro
if you really want to do your maximum dps in groups that also do a lot of damage then first you are going to want to establish a strong aggro lead so that you can do your dps rotation for around 3+ minutes.
open in shield oath then Shield lob+shelltron Halone combo+ Shield swipe>Halone combo, from here on out you are ready to switch to Sword Oath.
Your DPS rotation
This rotation should only be used if you are OT or have already established hate, and if you are OT ignore using Shelltron unless you want to try and tank cleaves for extra dps.
Switch to Sword Oath then use fast blade+Sheltron > Riot blade(FoF)+CoS>Goring+Spirits>Fracture+Shield swipe>RA>Fast blade+Str pot+Spirits>RA+(Shield Swipe)>Riot blade+Sheltron>Goring+CoS>Fracture+Shield Swipe.
The breakdown
An earlier post I saw said to not take fracture into consideration for its low dps, and while this is true for a regular damage rotation if we just break down the potency
Fast blade (150) Savage blade (200) Royal Authority (340) total = 690 pot
Fast blade (150) Riot Blade (230) Goring blade (220+320) total = 920 pot
Fracture (220)
So when you are in FoF the Goring>RA>RA>Goring combo takes around 26-28 seconds depending on skill speed and during that time you can do Fast blade and Savage blade, but you are unable to hit a RA without FoF running out the total pot of this is.
Fast blade + Savage blade = 350 pot
Fracture + fracture = 440 pot
the major downside to this is that it will cost you more tp over time and you will run dry faster. -
12-09-2015, 10:20 AMNicobo
wao, tho most server's top DPS always wait you build-up aggro ^^;
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12-10-2015, 03:29 AMAlexiIvaniskavichFracture is a DPS loss for every class but Warrior and in extreme limitation Monk (highly specialized, filler to allow for a fuller Demolish tick). It is confirmed many times and in many posts that it is in fact a DPS loss on all other classes. Take a look at the dragoon or monk threads, and you will see more math than you can shake a stick at. As I monk for my dps class, most of my information has been gleamed from their thread, and a lot of theory crafting done by many smarter than I (thank you Ossom and all the others over there).Quote:
Originally Posted by RanceIronheart
For DOT management, it has been proven that you should refresh your DOT when it is at 3 seconds or less, but to never fall completely off. (due to latency on both sides). Clipping your DOT prior to this (4+ sec) results in too much of an override, thus reducing total potency. Applying your DOT too late and you are losing DPS that you should have had due to the DOT tick. The use of fracture on a monk is ONLY good when you are using to use a GCD to refresh the main dot (DEMO) at the <3 mark vs doing at the 5-6 second mark.
The flaw in your math is that you are not also looking at what you are losing. When you run the Goring combo > RA > RA . > Goring combo, you are refreshing the strongest potency skill for Paladin at exactly the right time. When you add a non-combo GCD skill, you are removing 1 tick (40 potency) of goring blade every single time. In your 30 second window, you found a difference of 90 potency by using Fracture twice (by removing Fast blade and Savage blade) , but you did not consider the fact that you lost 2 ticks of Goring blade. Your total actual potency increase is only 10, at the cost of 160 TP.
In a TP starved class, 160 TP is not worth 10 potency.
When you play as a real DPS, part of maximizing your job is to keep your buffs/debuffs /dots with 100% uptime, as often as possible. 3.0 monk rotations are worked around keeping these up and the 2.x Dragoon rotation did as well (I haven’t been there in a while, won’t speak for 3.0). You are not optimizing your DPS as a Paladin by allowing Goring Blade to drop off.
Of course there is always an exception somewhere. Jumps where the boss still takes damage come to mind. I would argue that there are more useful skills to be cross classed. -
12-10-2015, 04:21 AMCallidus
Alexi covered it well. I'd just like to add that Rance is also ignoring the fact that at the end of that not-so-potent Fast Blade + Savage Blade in FoF, you've set yourself up for a high potency RA that you can use immediately after. Once you factor in that next GCD:
With Fracture: FoF(Fracture+Fracture)+Fast Blade --> 1.3x440=572 + 150 = 722 total potency for 2 FoF Fractures plus step 1 of a new RA combo.
Without fracture: FoF(Fast Blade+Savage Blade)+RA --> 1.3x350=455 + 340 = 795 total potency for FoF Fast and Savage blades and finishing with RA out of FoF.
Fracture just isn't worth using as a PLD at 60. -
12-10-2015, 04:44 AMSapphidia
Alexi and Callidus said it much faster than I was going to! To add an additional explanation that might help the understanding:
Fracture is 220 potency (100 hit + 120 dot). The average potency of Goring/Royal/Royal across all 9 GCDs is also 220, if you ignore the Goring Blade DoT. Doing Goring/Royal/Royal keeps 100% uptime on the Goring Blade dot, which ticks every 3 seconds for 40 potency of damage.
Inserting a Fracture to make it a 10 GCD rotation keeps the average potency per GCD as 220, so no gain (but a TP loss), but also inserts a "gap" into the constant running of the Goring Blade dot. You need a consistant 2.4 second GCD or lower in order to fit 10 GCDs into a Goring Blade duration. The Gap varies in length dependant on skillspeed, but has a chance to lose a whole 40 tick of the Goring Blade DoT occasionally.
By putting in a Fracture instead of a Fast Blade as the last move in a Fight or Flight, you're only gaining 30% of the -difference-. 150 vs 220, so 30% of 70, which is 21 potency gained, at a risk of losing a 40 tick of Goring Blade unless you have a tonne of skillspeed.
However, the DoT portion of Fracture isnt affected by Slashing Down from Warrior/Ninja, which you'll almost always have. When you factor this in, using a Fracture to turn a Goring/Royal/Royal rotation into a 10 GCD rotation actually loses you 12 potency, along with the chance of losing a 40 potency goring DoT.
Fracture's performance is dependant on your skillspeed as to whether or not its use loses you DPS. Outside of Fight or Flight, it's a straight DPS and TP loss. As the final hit of Fight or Flight it's only a DPS increase if you don't have Slashing Down and have a huge amount of skillspeed so you don't have a gap in your Goring Blade - and with this amount of skillspeed you're goign to be TP starved so shouldnt be using it anyway. -
12-10-2015, 08:27 AMRanceIronheart
Hmm, i was unaware about the outside of FoF pot loss, but i'll run some more tests later to see if i really am missing out on maximum dps. Although i rarely let Goring drop even with the double fracture combo my skill cooldown is somewhere around 2.35-2.45? I am also interested in hearing where you think a proper application of a strength pot should be used.
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12-10-2015, 08:54 AMFebrusAre you talking gear or ability points? Because you'll get some vastly different answers depending on which you are referring to.Quote:
Originally Posted by RanceIronheart
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12-10-2015, 09:15 AMFreyyy?? He's talking about using a STR pot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
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12-10-2015, 09:15 AMSapphidiaIf you DON'T have a warrior/ninja keeping up the +10% Slashing debuff, and have 2.4 second GCD or lower, doing Goring/Royal/Royal/Fracture is exactly the same dps as doing Goring/Royal/Royal, but costs more TP. It's a teeeeeny dps boost to use -one- fracture as the final GCD of Fight or Flight. If you have higher than 2.4 GCD then the fracture in FoF will likely be DPS loss due to the gap it creates in your Goring Blade ticks.Quote:
Originally Posted by RanceIronheart
If you DO have a warrior/ninja keeping up slashing, Fracture is 100% a DPS loss to use.
Note that if you can fit 11 GCDs into a Fight or Flight, Riot Blade is 230 Potency, which is more than a Fracture. Thus you're also getting more DPS if you pop your Fight or Flight between the Fast/Riot of a goring combo to include an extra buffed Riot, rather than between the Riot/Goring and inserting a Fracture.
Pretty much every calculation has shown that Fracture in ANY situation will be a detriment to your DPS, either a flat DPS loss over just ignoring it, or equal DPS but more TP. It's honestly not worth having on your bars. It's a very minor difference though, so if you noticed any major DPS increase or loss from using/not using fracture it's almost entirely due to other circumstances. -
12-10-2015, 09:31 AMFebrusIndeed he is. Apparently I lose the ability to read things correctly when I've been lacking the sleep. @_@Quote:
Originally Posted by Freyyy
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12-10-2015, 09:44 AMSapphidia
I've not hugely theorycrafted the optimal pot timing but what SEEMS to be best to me from smoothness is something like:
Fast Blade -> FoF -> Riot Blade -> STR Pot -> Goring Blade -> Circle of Scorn -> Royal Authority Combo x 2 -> Goring Blade Combo
You can fit in a Spirits Within and Shield Swipe whilst the Str Pot is running, and the STR pot should buff the Goring Blade DoT and one full Royal combo.
At higher Skill Speed though I have no idea, as it makes more sense to pop FoF before the Goring Blade and then pop the Strength pot about halfway through the FoF so it buffs the -second- Goring Blade. -
12-11-2015, 02:07 AMAlexiIvaniskavichPretty much this, with enough skill speed and lack of lag, you can double tap your oGCD of Pot > FoF and still get a fully buffed goring blade + RA combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapphidia
I have found that going FoF > pot seem less effective due to the time it takes for the pot to actually go off.