Class direction for 'support-oriented' classes (BRD, MCH, AST)?

So maybe it's still a bit early for discussion on this, but what direction do people think they'll take classes that lean towards support in future (e.g 4.0?).

For example, in 3.0 Bard gets almost exclusively dps-related skills (with Paean being the exception). Conversely, Astrologian gets mainly utility-related skills with two extra nukes. Machinist is pretty balanced between both dps and utility.

How do you think they'll develop these classes in future, and which direction would you like them to go? Solely dps / healing? Utility centered? Or a balance of the two?:eek:

(As an aside, I've left Paladin out of the title, but technically - at least in the developer's eyes - I think that it belongs to this group. Feel free to comment on Paladins if you wish!)

Well honestly I still think they should just do traits in 4.0, so that means no new songs :(

But I could do with some more support songs... I don't think they're going to do many, though. Oh well.

Incoming backlash, but I'd love to see an actual support role be added to the game someday (4.0 or beyond) to change things up a bit and add some more variety/flavor to the game. Bards/Machinists could be given more support/utility, and for those that hate the idea of being a support role, the Ranger job could be added as a pure dps role. I understand that they'd have to go back and tweak things around in order to do this, but I think it'd be an ideal change for a future expansion.

Do same other MMORPG give less new skill more than now and develop job trait system for improve old skill mechanic instead. When you pass level 60 cap you will get passive trait that will improve unique mechanics for each job same as WoW mastery and talent or GW2 trait system. I suggest WoW mastery, the passive ability that offering benefits appropriate to that spec's role and abilities by calculated from Mastery status such as Discipline Priest (Barrier Healer) increase increases size of absorbs, and to a lesser extent heals when Restoration Shaman get passive ability to increases healing done to targets on low health. However, they can use this ability when pass level 80 only. This will improve. Dev might revamp Det stat for do something like this. I think Det ability is to flat now. It only increase direct damage and healing same as Main stat. I think it should have some unique effect like Critical and Skill/Spell Speed. If we have this mastery in FF14, we can make det increse % of absorption for SCH, increase % of direct healing and HoT effect for WHM. For AST might be use WoW shaman mastery (that like Essential Dignity effect) plus increase duration of their buff.

Ref
WoW Mastery system
WoW Talent system
GW2 Trait

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Originally Posted by nickx

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Whilst I would love the same, I think it's clear this won't ever happen. That doesn't automatically mean they can't have current / future classes have a strong support/utility aspect though

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Originally Posted by Kemonologist

Do same other MMORPG give less new skill more than now and develop job trait system for improve old skill mechanic instead.

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This is also very true. We have an overflow of abilities now, adding even more in the next expansion will be a problem. They'll need to come up with a way to avoid adding more abilities by perhaps developing some sort of new system that alters the abilities we have now or come up with something different.

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Originally Posted by Kemonologist

traits

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This would solve a lot of problems regarding skill bloat and stuff, but I imagine it would simply be a vertical 'you get this trait or nothing' system as opposed to 'you can go this way or that way'. I don't know much about other MMO's and how efficient they are, but skill trees could be an interesting idea (Bards can split into dps or support, Paladins go defensive / utility or offensive). The main problem there is that it'd be incredibly difficult (maybe even impossible?) to balance them in such a way that you don't get 'you must have X traits/skills/etc or you're kicked' :(

And in terms of the actual thread question and traits themselves, would these be more weighted towards dps/healing or utility?

FFXIV will never have full utility jobs , in a game where the full party is 8 with 4 slots for tanks healers leving only 4 for dmg...3 dps + supports needs to be better than 4 dps....or worse...so how u balanced that?..if u bring 1 support the pt is op/up....is a !$!$ mess , is no wonder the mmorpgs are avoiding full support jobs at most u gets half support half dps that no1 wants to play (see eq2 bards and enchanters)

I honestly don't get the problem with skill bloat that so many people seem to have. On my MCH in particular, I'm easily set to where I can manage another three expansions worth of skills by just adding one hotbar I can switch to and from with one button on my PS4. Maybe it's more of a PC problem?

As for the direction they'll take, since it's pretty clear they have no intent to actually buff MCH in terms of raw damage and instead have it more of a support role, I'd like to see some actual support skills on it. Right now we've got the MP/TP regen, and a couple of weak debuffs, but that's it. The regen in particular is rather useless if you have a competent group outside of doing chain-pulls or Savage, because practically every class has some skill they can use to regen their primary resource on their own. Personally, I'd like to see a shielding turret, (I'd call it "Knight Autoturret"), that has 25% of the player's health and takes all damage in place of them while it's up, or in Promote mode provides a circular shield that protects for 5-10% damage while draining MP. Since we don't have any self healing, give us the option to trade off some DPS in an emergency for boosted defenses.....

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

FFXIV will never have full utility jobs , in a game where the full party is 8 with 4 slots for tanks healers leving only 4 for dmg...3 dps + supports needs to be better than 4 dps....or worse...so how u balanced that?..if u bring 1 support the pt is op/up....is a !$!$ mess , is no wonder the mmorpgs are avoiding full support jobs at most u gets half support half dps that no1 wants to play (see eq2 bards and enchanters)

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Understandable, but I could see 1 support role in each party which could essentially empower the 3 other dps in the group to increase their damage significantly, or apply vulnerabilities to the boss, etc. A support job could even synergize with other jobs with their skills, such as having the ability to empower ninjutsu of ninjas, empower the jumps of dragoons, etc. I know it would require some balancing and job tweaks, but I personally would find it more interesting.

I can't remember which one, but in a Live Letter from the Producer, Yoshi-P explicitly said that they will not ever add full support classes to the game. It's really sad and I'd love them to reconsider, but when we're considering how these jobs will be developed in future we should assume for now they'll be tank / dps / healer with support elements rather than full support.

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Originally Posted by Gamer3427

Machinist stuff

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Like I said in the 'BRD broke etc' thread, I do agree that regen abilities feel lacklustre as they don't see much use in a lot of content. I've always seen Machinist as being more focused on providing support through debuffing the enemy. I think building on this would be cool and help keep it somewhat different from Bards. Something like a turret focused on shielding is a great idea. Hypercharge could even have it provide a small regen to party members in range for its duration on top of damage reduction. Or they could add an ability that 'explodes' the turret and has it provide a debuff to enemies in range (maybe damage down or vulnerability up, maybe even something entirely unique?).

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Originally Posted by Connor

How do you think they'll develop these classes in future, and which direction would you like them to go? Solely dps / healing? Utility centered? Or a balance of the two?:eek:

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For Bards, I think I'd like to see us be given more utility, as we don't have a stun/heavy/knockback (minus the pvp ability) like our Machinist friends. Perhaps more emphasis on our songs, like a temporary in-combat Swiftsong, or a song that applies a temporary heavy to enemies as they approach your character, etc.

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Originally Posted by nickx

Understandable, but I could see 1 support role in each party which could essentially empower the 3 other dps in the group to increase their damage significantly, or apply vulnerabilities to the boss, etc. A support job could even synergize with other jobs with their skills, such as having the ability to empower ninjutsu of ninjas, empower the jumps of dragoons, etc. I know it would require some balancing and job tweaks, but I personally would find it more interesting.

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The problem with full support jobs is they almost always end up being either required or useless. It's really difficult to hit that middle ground where it's useful enough to take with you (i.e. it makes up for the loss of the 4th DPS) but not overpowered.

They've flat-out said in one of the Live Letters that there are no plans to include Support classes for this reason.

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Originally Posted by Gamer3427

Right now we've got the MP/TP regen, and a couple of weak debuffs, but that's it. The regen in particular is rather useless if you have a competent group outside of doing chain-pulls or Savage, because practically every class has some skill they can use to regen their primary resource on their own.

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If doing casual content in a casual manner (i.e. not speed pulling) is the bar to measure skill usefulness by, 90% of my kit is useless.

There is nothing wrong with a support role in this type of mmorpg. Rift has shown you can do it just fine, bard is super fun in that game.

It would require tweaking the current system quite a lot to implement though, that's where the actual problem lies. It all depends on if the dev wants to put the time into working it into the system but it's certainly not impossible.

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Originally Posted by nickx

For Bards, I think I'd like to see us be given more utility, as we don't have a stun/heavy/knockback (minus the pvp ability) like our Machinist friends. Perhaps more emphasis on our songs, like a temporary in-combat Swiftsong, or a song that applies a temporary heavy to enemies as they approach your character, etc.

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I agree, I'd love to see more songs/utility too. It's actually weird you mention stuns etc. I was just thinking that Bard is the only physical damage dealer that doesn't possess a stun. Given how powerful it was at release though, I can kinda see why. I'd love to see a debuff song that deals damage, as I think it kinda fits with Bard being both dps and support. Maybe one, like you said, that deals and applies heavy to the target or maybe stuns them. I'd like to see more songs that focus on buffing the party for Bard, in line with the more 'traditional' Bard role.

Maybe a regen or damage down song that's applied the same as the Warden's Paean (3 second cast times make it slightly less abusable since Bards are still required to deal damage) with a base MP cost. A Raise song would be cool too, though that would probably be too powerful for Bard.
As a side note, I'd love to see a way for Bards to restore their MP. Naturally, Bards will still be getting new dps-related skills/traits so they could possibly provide this. And Machinist too, though I imagine they'll continue to rely less on MP than Bards to access their utility.

In this game, the support who can bring DPS to party must trade their DPS or Healing potential for other member DPS.
e.g.
- MNK have highest raw DPS because they don't have any DPS support to party.
- DRG can increase party DPS from critical buff and piercing resistance debuff but this buff and debuff have limitation for increase DPS unlike NIN. Then, they get higher raw DPS more than NIN but lower than MNK.
- NIN have lowest raw DPS in melee because they can increase DPS for any job from Trick Attack and slashing resistance debuff that guarantee DPS increasing for 2 Tank. It is flexible more than DRG.
- BRD and MCH have buff for increase DPS to large member in party. When MCH can increase both physical and magical, they have short duration and potency lower than BRD who can increase only magical. TP and MP regeneration are indirect DPS increasing too (More resource, More damage). But their ranged attack and mobility make them must lower their DSP too. From that two reason, it make them have lowest DPS unlike NIN who have lose DPS from their flexible DPS utility only.
- Same with healer, WHM have best potential in healing because they don't have any party buff (except MND buff) when SCH and AST can bring DPS to party. SCH and AST must trade their raw healing potential with their DPS buff for party (SCH must trade their MND stat for pet too, They have lowest MND) when AST must trade their own DPS more than SCH because they have various buff effect more than SCH. However, they still get some unique mechanic in healing instead.

I'll be honest. I think they should add a support role. I don't care what people think, if they're support classes then throw in a support role, don't throw them under dps.

10% dps boost for the physical range jobs when there are two in a group would be a good start. I would like to see groups with both MCH and BRD viable.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

10% dps boost for the physical range jobs when there are two in a group would be a good start. I would like to see groups with both MCH and BRD viable.

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Well, they are in a manner, though more so in eight player content with at least two casters. Namely because you can keep Foes up for a greatly extended period of time by having the MCH use MP regen, and that extended time on Foes means those casters can do a lot more damage, while the MCH switches turrets for their Hypercharged burst. Still not perfect by any means, but viable in a manner. It gets even more so if you have an AST feeding an MP card to the MCH or BRD every now and then. Came relatively close to clearing Faust in A1S using this method even with a relatively inexperienced Bard, only one caster, and a NIN who was pretty poor and who didn't have B4B.....

EDIT: In terms of non Savage content, I run MCH, (or occasionally SCH), and my friend runs BRD, (different friend than the BRD mentioned above), and we've never even come close to having trouble meeting DPS checks, though while I consider myself to be a fairly skilled MCH, she's an even better BRD.....

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Originally Posted by Gamer3427

Well, they are in a manner, though more so in eight player content with at least two casters. Namely because you can keep Foes up for a greatly extended period of time by having the MCH use MP regen, and that extended time on Foes means those casters can do a lot more damage, while the MCH switches turrets for their Hypercharged burst. Still not perfect by any means, but viable in a manner. It gets even more so if you have an AST feeding an MP card to the MCH or BRD every now and then. Came relatively close to clearing Faust in A1S using this method even with a relatively inexperienced Bard, only one caster, and a NIN who was pretty poor and who didn't have B4B.....

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That is problem. People always count individual DPS but don't count how many DPS that support role bring to party.

I think it's fine as is. If you examine the skills of each class/job, you'll find debuffs againt targets, individual or party buffs, direct or indirect support. It's all there, it's up to the players to know their class/job well enough to use their buffs/debuffs to best advantage, which ones stack, which do not, and so on. We are all support classes to one extent or another, there is no pressing need for separate support jobs.

I'm always puzzled when people ask for support classes, or multi-player attack combos. If each of us just plays for their own goals in each encounter, things may not go so well. On the other hand if everyone intelligently applies and combimes their skils, support buffs and debuffs effectively far more damage will be mitigated and the party will deal far more damage. There is a lot of scope for working together to pull off what amount to unstructured combo attacks, if only people would pay attention.

Instead of a 'by the numbers' combo chain attack, we can build that using complimentary buffs and debuffs along with well timed burst damage.

What I would like to see is increased utility for everyone, not even more jobs with similar roles and a slightly different flavor. In a 4 or 8 man party there's really not room for a dedicated support role. Maybe in 24 man content where SE is balancing with only 1 tank, you might have room for more support bias, but even then we already have the jobs, we just need to play with attention to support rather than max dps.

It's doubtful anything new will happen. They seem to like limiting the 'support' of this game to just refilling resources.

What they're trying to avoid is the situation they had in FFXI where every party wanted a bard. No, every party did not NEED a bard, but every party wanted one. To the point where bards ran around with /anon an all the time to avoid people begging them to join their party.

You think tanks are prima donnas in this game, us bards in XI were known as the "princesses." A good bard turned a good party into a great one, and even a mediocre bard would make a mediocre party into a good one.

As a bard in XI, I had very little offensive ability, but enough defensive stuff as a BRD/WHM or BRD/NIN that I could handle pulling full time as well as keeping the party greased with two songs (later on three and four songs.) Haste + Attack boost were the two preferred ones, although sometimes if the DPS was whiffing a lot I'd switch to Haste + Accuracy on their request. Mages got at least one Ballad to keep the MP flowing. The ideal party setup was NIN MNK SAM BRD RDM COR - NIN tank, MNK and SAM skillchaining the snot out of each other, COR giving buffs and an exp boost, BRD pulling, and RDM healing and buffing.

I'm very relieved that bard in XIV is much more low key and just another DPS. I like providing buffs, but I also feel I provide a lot more utility by doing good DPS, too.

I'd hesitate to lump an AST or a PLD in with the likes of BRD/MCH simply because of the differing methods if their utility. PLD has an AOE 10% shield that they rely on someone else to proc and two spells that they're hard-pressed to actually get off without constantly being interrupted. AST has a plethora of different buffs but no real control over their use like BRD/MCH do.

Not saying that the discussion of how to implement future jobs with nifty utilities isn't fun, I'm just not sure PLD/AST can be considered "support" when one has extremely niche support and the other has support so unreliable it almost seems tacked on as an afterthought.

It seems like at the beginning they tried to make each job do their primary roles while at the same time give the ability to enhance or debuff a mob to an extent. Bard seemed to have more of a larger AoE ability than the rest. I stopped bard in 1.0 but am trying to pick it up again.

It seems a bit messy but I think they have two options to do things with. One is to increase the enfeeblement and party enhancing abilities of the other jobs to continue along the lines of support for each job/class. Or create that extra slot and add in a support role with BRD and MCH enhancing support while supplying some DPS. It would mean an extra party slot. I only say that because I've gotten into very very rare parties where we had a 5th member..and we rolled with it. I'm not on my PC at home but I sure hope I can find it, I took a picture.

I think either would be an okay idea, but I think the first option would be the easiest. For example, looking at Lancer/DRG, they could take Feint and make it off global, reduce the potency and increase the duration of slow. Increase Keen Flurry to a party AoE, it wouldn't be major but for an add phase parrying some type of HP would be interesting. Then they have Battle Litany which is wonderful in itself.

Then again if they do something like a DPS / Support class slot, they could easily do a skill tree like others suggested to an extent but maybe in terms of Merit Points so they can enhance their abilities as needed. Maybe Enhanced Ballad to give also an AoE magic accuracy buff.

I loved my role as a bard in XI, I enjoyed 1.0 also. I am starting it now in 3.0 and so far I do not see me using any of my songs so much but maybe that's because I eat up a DPS role. If they did add that extra slot but didn't make it pure support..even though Yoshi said there wasn't going to be a dedicated support, wouldn't have to be like XI Bard, could be a lesser DPS hybrid. I'm not sure which would be easier to do now that I'm thinking about it...so much to take in.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

I'd hesitate to lump an AST or a PLD in with the likes of BRD/MCH simply because of the differing methods if their utility. PLD has an AOE 10% shield that they rely on someone else to proc and two spells that they're hard-pressed to actually get off without constantly being interrupted. AST has a plethora of different buffs but no real control over their use like BRD/MCH do.

Not saying that the discussion of how to implement future jobs with nifty utilities isn't fun, I'm just not sure PLD/AST can be considered "support" when one has extremely niche support and the other has support so unreliable it almost seems tacked on as an afterthought.

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I get what you mean, and I do realize lumping AST/PLD with BRD/MCH is pretty strange. What I meant is that they're both classes that lose out on something to balance their utility (Paladin has high defense and utility in exchange for lower dps, Astrologian has cards in exchange for less raw healing potency than Scholar / White Mage). There's a sort of parallel between how AST/PLD are designed and the way BRD/MCH are designed with more utility, less dps/healing (though that's obviously a super simplistic description). As far as I'm aware you could even consider Ninja in this category now I think?

Also, I don't want people to get the wrong idea about the topic of this thread. Like I mentioned before, this thread wasn't a call for full-support classes as I'm well aware they can't and won't be implemented for a variety of reasons. There are still a variety of ways further utility can be added to 'utility' classes whilst still keeping them as dps-heavy as they are now though, or perhaps making them less dps-heavy and more utility heavy in a way that doesn't break balance (i.e making Bard/Machinist/etc required for specific content). The purpose was to see what suggestions people had for future abilities / traits / etc for 'support' classes as they exist in the game currently and what people would like to see (e.g more support but less dps, more dps but less support etc).