Hey guys.
I havent found a thread bout this so far and i wanna know what setup is runnin better which i mentioned in the topic. Im not good in any maths so i keep it simple from what i know. So i just note down the pros of Drg and Nin and leave the discussion to the community whats better setup if we keep the mnk as a static class and want to figure out what fits best regarding utility, raiddps and sustained dps. (Sry for bad english)
Drg Pro:
- High sustained dps
- good aoe dps
- pushes Brd
- pushes Raiddps with Litany
Nin Pro:
- Enmity control (Tank can go dps stance, healer aggro reduced
- Trickattack
- Goad
- High initial dps
This was what came first to my mind bout both classes. So whats the better setup for Raids? Nin/Mnk or Drg/Mnk?
// Maths are welcome
Raidsetup Drg/Mnk or Nin/Mnk?
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12-01-2015, 02:41 PMLuminiusRaidsetup Drg/Mnk or Nin/Mnk?
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12-01-2015, 03:18 PMCabalabob
DRG is pretty much a must have at this point due to battle litany and buffing BRD and MCH damage with their piercing buff. The real question is MNK or NIN not DRG or NIN. And what you really need to look at to decide which is better is actually the tanks more than anything.
If you have a DRK then MNK really isn't adding anything to the raid other than enhanced mantra which is meh. Having a NIN will give the DRK a slashing buff (if you don't have a WAR), goad and enmity control if needed as well as trick attack to buff raid damage.
If you don't have a DRK then MNK can be good for INT down to reduce magic damage taken and if you have a WAR then they can apply the slashing debuff so NIN is less useful.
I'd say MNK fits into the old WAR and PLD combo best, while NIN fits better with a DRK and PLD or DRK and WAR.
But since I'm assuming you're the MNK which is why you're asking between DRG or NIN as a partner, I'd say it really doesn't matter, each one adds raid utility, NIN has trick attack and even if you have a WAR for slashing debuff that just means the NIN can remove dancing edge from their rotation to increase their own dps. While DRG adds battle litany and the piercing debuff for your BRD or MCH. The only thing that makes a difference is NIN's goad and enmity control. Those might be good while you're learning but they shouldn't be necessary as the tank should be able to hold hate and unless people are dying they shouldn't be running out of tp with paeon. -
12-01-2015, 03:21 PMGamer3427
Well, it depends more on what your party set up is. The reason people want DRGs or NINs in their statics is usually because of the damage buff they provide. DRG's benefits them as well as a MCH/BRD in the party, while NINs benefits the tanks, but is useless if there's a WAR in the party. Honestly, I'd go more with the DRG just because of Litany and that there's less room for DPS loss, (NIN always has to worry about one wrong murda press or lag taking a chunk of damage, even after the fixes), but in the end it's more of a call based on what the party set up is, and the skill of the individual players within the party.....
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12-01-2015, 03:32 PMMrCookTM
What is it with all that "Nin is less useful if there's a war" stuff? The dps boost Nin gets from war is pretty significant.
Anyway, at this point it's just a question of personal preference and raid comp. Drg + Nin is still unchallenged in terms of raid dps, that being said you might still want to bring a Mnk if there's no Drk in the party. In this case, Drg + Mnk would probably be best, if only by a very slight margin. -
12-01-2015, 03:45 PMCabalabobWhen you provide something that is already being provided it makes it less useful that you can provide it. It's just a fact. NIN has to go out of its way to provide the slashing debuff, WAR does not. If you have a WAR you no longer need someone to provide the slashing debuff like you would with a DRK and PLD combo, hence it is less useful. NIN isn't useless if there's a WAR but if one of the draws of bringing a NIN is taken away by having a WAR it makes it objectively less useful.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrCookTM
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12-01-2015, 03:54 PMmosaicex
Easy, Got DRK? Bring NIN instead of MNK.
No WAR? Bring NIN and other DPS of choice. -
12-01-2015, 05:13 PMLuminius
Yeah forgot to mention it. Yes im the Monk and im the raid lead so basically im not gonna exclude myself. Our Raidcomposition is Drk (with offspec pld), war, whm, sch, mnk, brd and smn so far. Maybe i have to mention this is an eu grp where all have ping of 25-35ms and mudra issues we didnt have really.
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12-01-2015, 05:59 PMMrCookTMHonestly, it doesn't really matter at this point, savage is perfectly doable with whatever melee comp, they're all fine and viable. Drg ofc has the benefit of buffing the ranged while having slightly higher sustained dps himself, by slightly I mean like 40 - 60 dps. Nin on the other hand buffs the whole raids dps by more than 120 dps and makes short burst dps checks like hand of pain a no brainer. Just pick the job you find a good player of and you'll be good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Luminius
If you wanna min-max: pick a drg and switch to nin, or pick a nin and switch to drg. -
12-01-2015, 06:53 PMCabalabobYep, sorry to say, but with that setup you are the dead weight in the group. But don't worry about it, I'm a PLD so I'm in the same boat lol. With void ark gear and being able to upgrade eso to 210 with the void ark weekly and hunts, you shouldn't have any problem meeting the dps checks with a less than optimal setup. So again, between DRG and NIN it's going to make very little difference, NIN would be better for learning while DRG will help with faster clears once you've learned the fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Luminius
But if you want a definitive answer I'd say take a DRG, simply cause your BRD will like you more. -
12-01-2015, 08:13 PMAeliott1. NIN not having to worry about Dancing Edge means more Aeolian Edges, which means they're doing more damage than they would without a WAR in the party. Every time they'd otherwise do 260 potency, they now do 320. And without WAR, NINs use DA a LOT. MNK/DRK is different because the debuff they give is defensive, and nobody else actually benefits from the Blunt resist down MNK gives. NIN gets more DPS out of the slashing thing too :P , you lose _nothing_ since WAR - as an OT at least - is going to keep the debuff up regardless of who's in the party - whereas DRK can apply its defensive debuff when necessary, and nobody cares about the loss of Blunt down without a MNK. NIN and WAR don't tread on each others toes like that at all, it only enhances ninja's usefulness since it can now do more damage, and the party still gets its slashing down debuff because WARs do it anyway. Again, nothing is lost from this comp, only gained.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabalabob
It's objectively MORE useful, not less :P . You said it yourself: "NIN has to go out of its way to provide the slashing debuff, WAR does not". Unlike MNK/DRK though, the "utility" one of them loses from overlap gets replaced with something more useful - more damage.
2. Trick Attack is THE biggest draw of bringing a Ninja, not Dancing Edge, especially when WAR is easily considered the best tank. DA isn't considered at all. -
12-01-2015, 08:27 PMLuminius
thank u so far for your answers. Is there any maths how much the dps loss is for brd having no drg and how much is the dps increase by having trickattack and and dps stance tank during pull? Overall it all together sounds like in the end drg is just slightly better but if the Nin is playing his class on maximum it shouldnt matter at all
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12-01-2015, 10:07 PMMrCookTM
There's barely any difference at all. It more comes down to how effeceively your group can use either jobs utility. The dps difference between nim and drg is somewhere in the 50-60 dps range in an average fight, while the drg increases brd dps by around 7% (that's what I have read at least, I'm not a brd theorycrafter myself), and trick attack increases raid dps by around 2%. Battle litany is hard to gauge, so is shadewalker. Goad heavily depends on the fight, in fights like A2s where jobs like war/monk/drg can heavily benefit from burning through their tp aoe'ing it's such a big dps invrease it's ridiculous, while in fight's with lots of phase shifts/downtime where dps and tanks can sustain theirselves it might not be any dps invrease at all. Also greatly depends on your groups playstyle and if the brd play's paeon anyway or not.
In the end, like I said, there's no autopick. Both can be better than the other one if the player is good and your group uses the kobs utility to it's full potential. -
12-01-2015, 11:00 PMalsims2007
Drg offers too much utility to not have a spot (party crit buff and constant free damage for brd/mch and dmg not far from mnk)
Mnk vs Nin you can choose either. Most of nin utility isn't needed. I found most of the skills only useful when a death occured. The only real debate is trick attack vs top single target (and far superior aoe) damage. Nin does also have the added affect of making burn phases like hand of pain so much easier.
Myself I play monk in a more casual static. I find monk much easier to carry others weight because my damage is my own. Dps that don't optimize for a fight or die to whatever reason make trick attack less valuable since the ninja loses a person benefiting from the buff. Great mnk vs great Nin, mnk. But great mnk with great party vs great Nin with great party, Nin. Or at least that's my view of it. I'm gearing up my Nin up and practicing the rotation assuming my group improves. I like Nin as much as mnk so I'd like to keep the option open -
12-02-2015, 04:32 AMElleia
Our static used to run MNK/NIN, but after our NIN had to leave due to work obligations we've picked up a DRG. Arguably, NIN/DRG is the "best" melee setup; both bring a great deal of utility to the raid group. We also run with a DRK/WAR setup, but we're more about playing what you want to play, and our MNK loves to punch things. :)
That said, our BRD's dps has obviously increased due to the DRG and litany is great as well. Our DRK is rather sad about losing our NIN as he could spend the majority of the fights without grit and use fewer enmity combos overall due to shadewalker. For fights such as A1S our strategy has changed a bit, since we used to dump on one oppressor to take advantage of trick attack, which is no longer necessary. So I'd say, overall, NIN's bring a bit more utility depending on your group comp, but DRG is in a great spot right now. Either is viable. -
12-04-2015, 08:17 AMEphier
DRG will always have a slot, the correct question is MNK or NIN.
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12-04-2015, 01:42 PMTranquilExactly. DRG is just too good not to have. Litany helps everyone, Disembowel buffs the BRD/MCH by a significant amount, and on its own, a DRG is not much behind a MNK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephier
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12-04-2015, 02:43 PMKabooa
You don't have to emulate top end guilds to clear content.
You don't have to emulate top end guilds to clear content.
The only time you exclude a job for raid composition purposes is if you're trying to clear content when your gear says no but your heart says yes.
Being a monk isn't dead weight if they do their !@#^ right.