Hello all! I just finished esoing up my warrior (main) and Im looking to gear my next tank! I have been tinkering with paladin and I really think that the class is awesome! My question basically boils down to a few things, and maybe some of my issues are lack of pally experience, in which case advice would be great!
1. I feel like I really have to try to hold hate from an equally or slightly higher geared team (pally is ilvl 184 currently) do those enmity issues subside with the eso weapon? (I currently have upgraded law)
2. What kind of dps do you guys pull in dungeons? I know that war and drk are more focused on dps just due to how theyre built, but i feel like my paladins shouldnt be 500 in dungeons.
3. For the long time pallys: What are some not so well known pally tricks or rotations?
I would really like to gear up pally next, just want to get some advice/knowledge before i blow 3 months of esos on another class. I know that the diadem offers far superior gear to esos on some drops, but I have not had very much luck there while gearing and will not depend on it for gearing up my tank classes. Thanks in advance!
Advice from veteran tanks
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11-20-2015, 01:52 PMAuriusAdvice from veteran tanks
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11-20-2015, 02:32 PMJpec07
Hi there! Glad that you're enjoying the game, and the Paladin job!
1. I speak from experience when I say that yes, the Esoteric weapon will help you hold hate better. Your weapon damage is your primary DPS stat, and your DPS contributes directly to your ability to generate enmity and hold hate. Any enmity problems I had (against i200+ SMN or BLM, in particular) all but went away with an Esoteric weapon. You'll still want to save Fight or Flight for Circle of Scorn whenever you can (because if you do it in quick succession, you can get two circles off before FoF ends), and some fights may have a mob or two get away, but that sword will really help.
2.You are a tank. Do not worry about DPS.Parsers and the discussion thereof are technically against Terms of Service, so be careful when talking about that here. But you've just struck on the heart of why a lot of people are disgruntled with PLD right now. If I remember my numbers right, in full Eso gear, with full slaying accessories, a PLD will only generally pull 600-700 DPS as MT. That number goes up if you can spend some time in Sword Oath, but it's almost not worth it in dungeons.
3. Diadem gear has a slight chance at being better than Esoteric, but it is by no means a reliable source of gear (unless you are very undergeared). As to tips and tricks, Paladin is literally the most straightforward job in the game. There is basically no complexity to it that is not done better or more engagingly on other jobs. That said, flash spam is kind of essential in any group with halfway decent AoE, and I've found that maintaining Stoneskin on myself helps out a lot against most bosses. Also, for more DPS, the general consensus right now is that much more HP than ~16k isn't worth it, so if you want to put out more damage (and generate more enmity), you can equip slaying gear in your accessory slots. Consult with your healer, though, as actual mileage may vary. You should also put a macro with Divine Veil to let the healers know to activate it (since Cure and Clemency can't touch it). -
11-20-2015, 02:48 PMSakuraHadoken
Jpec07 pretty much answered your other questions but about PLD dps and rotations. Basically you would want to keep Goring Blade up as much as possible and use Fight or Flight, Shield Swipe, Circle Scorn, and Spirits Within right away at the beginning of a fight. And of course when you are comfortable use Sword Oath when you are comfortable with it, to push out more damage.
Make sure you abuse Sheltron so you can shield swipe off cd too to get the most out of it, and of course Bulwark too but the cd is so long its better off as a defensive skill or, if Sheltron is on cd then its completely fine to resort to that.
Other than using those skills off cd and keeping fight or flight up, you would want to establish good agro with with Rage of Halone and then use Royal Authority as much as possible. -
11-20-2015, 04:51 PMAshkendor
1. Paladin generates less hate than our other tank brethren, but your Eso weapon will definitely alleviate a lot of that.
2. The best I've done in a dungeon is 850-ish on the Curator; I did my initial pull in Shield Oath to establish hate (one of the DPS was a friend and I know he can actually peel hate off me) then swapped to Sword Oath for the remainder of the fight. PLD AoE DPS is very low so there's no point in making your life harder by pulling in Sword Oath for extra damage - I stick to Shield Oath for that. My best so far in endgame is 757 in A2S (I need to spend time in Sword Oath in A1S sometime and see what kind of numbers I can push there).
3. Paladin is really very straightforward. My advice would be to make sure that Rampart is your go-to cooldown. It's a solid 20% reduction on a nice short (90s) timer, so you can really stretch out your cooldown rotation if you use it first and use it often. Also, don't forget that Sword Oath + Rampart is the same reduction as being in Shield Oath but without that nasty damage penalty!
As for the Diadem gear, I've seen a couple of decent pieces but nothing spectacular as of yet. Honestly, you could always grab some stuff from Alexander Normal to tide you over until you can get Void Ark gear if you aren't interested in spending Esoterics. -
11-20-2015, 08:25 PMAurius
Thank you for the responses! I'll be able to get my eso weapon next week so I'll start there. The support dynamic of paladin is just amazing. I love that I can cover a low hp teammate, pop a cd, and protect them or clemency them. There's just so much utility that sometimes it's hard to decide HOW to help and its so much fun! Thanks again guys/gals!
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11-20-2015, 09:04 PMFreyyy
Don't use FoF before your Shield Lob. It's the most frequent error I see most PLD doing. Shield Lob is your lowest potency move (lower than Fast Blade), it's absolutely not worth FoFing. With Eso weapon, you should most of the time be able to open with a Goring Blade combo right away, use FoF only after the Riot Blade, right before Goring Blade, and use your CoS right after this Goring Blade. This way you can fit 2 Goring Blade, 2 CoS, and 3 RA/RoH (depending on threat needed to hold aggro) during your FoF window. If you time it well, your FoF will end right after counting the damage of your very last RA. Abuse Sheltron in order to get as much Shield Swipes as you can. If you feel short on aggro in the opener, you can start with a RoH combo (and same here, only FoF right before RoH), and use Goring Blade as your 2nd combo. You'll still fit 2 Goring Blades in your FoF window, you'll just lose a little bit of overall DPS because you start applying it 3 GCDs later.
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11-20-2015, 09:35 PMImmut
The biggest advice i can give to an aspiring paladin is USE HALLOWED GROUND. It's not a precious gem to be kept for a special occasion, it's something to be used early and often. You get 2-3 of them in your average dungeon, use them on big pulls so the healer can AOE shit down for you. Use it the very INSTANT you get a spear card thrown at you, which is probably going to be never. Use it at full health. Shit ain't like Holmgang. It isn't something to keep you from dying, it's something to give the healers 10 seconds where they can just ignore you. If you see the party just got fucked up by something and the healers seem distracted, use HG. If a healer dies, use HG. Hell use clemency too. They aren't taking you for your mad dps.
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11-21-2015, 01:13 AMRalvenom
Do NOT fear using your CDs. Use them early and often.
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11-21-2015, 01:31 AMMalicewolf
fudge, i accidentally re-copied over my deleted message... instead of pasting when trying to edit post.
well, long story short, be careful with that hallowed ground advice. In dungeons, yes, you'll be able to use a few times. Use it on bigger mob pulls. Just be sure to save one for the last boss (unless you know he's a joke and won't be needing it). But in trials and such, timing is everything. Blowing a HG on something not needed and then needing it later is heart breaking. I often wait for 1 healer to fall (if there's no SMN) so the healer can focus first on getting their co-healer up. 10 seconds is plenty of time for that. -
11-21-2015, 04:37 AMMarxam1. This is a fact of life as PLD naturally have weaker enmity (especially for aoe).Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurius
Best you can do is Flash with FoF at the start of pulls.Until SE decides to give PLD an enmity buff it going to be a struggle but that will only make you a more competent tank.
2. As a WAR main myself its nice to see large mobs melting before your eyes but its not what tanking is about. As long as A) enemies aren't attacking the party/healer and B) your hp isn't dropping fast you can pull as much as you and your party can handle.
3. Combo splitting is a good skill to have for any tank but more so for PLD. Also really understand the range of your Flash as in some cases it may be better to Flash an enemy who is within range than to spend 120 tp for Shield Lob.
This right here is why Flash sucks compared to Overpower and Unleash.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freyyy
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11-21-2015, 05:15 AMFreyyyNope nope nope. FoF doesn't increase Flash's enmity. FoF increases physical damage. Flash's potency is treated as magical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marxam
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11-22-2015, 05:03 PMSandamar
I am really not sure about that. It would mean that a flash naked would pull the same threat as a flash in full i210 i highly doubt it Is the case tbh.
As far as i am concern flash Is linked to your attack power -
11-22-2015, 05:08 PMFreyyyYes it is. And FoF doesn't increase attack power, it increases physical damage. Physical damage =/= attack power, even if attack power = STR. DRK for example does a lot of magical damage that scales from STR. If DRK got FoF, it wouldn't affect his magical kit (Abyssal Drain, Unmend, Unleash, Dark Passenger) even if it is affected by STR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandamar
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11-23-2015, 04:22 AMFebrusPld's have the lowest enmity gen of all 3 tanks because Flash deals 0 dmg (despite scaling with Str), CoS is only a minuscule increase in enmity, Shield Swipe was taken off of the GCD (which is actually a bad thing for enmity gen and Tp consumption, and mob dps output, despite being a slight increase in Dps on bosses), and their primary enmity combo has a lower enmity multiplier than the other two tanks. At the time, it made sense, but it's become a constant challenge for Pld's to work around now. More so than any of the other two tanks, keeping your gear up to snuff is very important if you want to stay ahead, as well as staying vigilant in mob pulls to ensure you are rotating each enmity hit onto new targets while keeping an eye on the individual hate values of your party (which have a second or two delay before showing up after switching targets... kind of annoying).Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurius
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11-23-2015, 04:24 AMFebrusDefinitely not lol. Without getting into specific numbers that could get people into trouble, a Pld's dps output is actually not much lower than a Drk's if used correctly, and can be tweaked depending on the skill level of the group you are running with. For mob pulls, it is important for a Pld to remember to actually attack targets and rotate their enmity combo. A lot of Pld's just Flash dance their way through mobs, and that's fine for holding enmity (unless you have an elite Dps in your team, in which case it won't be enough), but you're not going to do any dmg that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurius
Instead, for mob tanking I usually open up with:Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurius
Shield Lob > Flash> CoS (DoT application. By this point you're going to want FoF up as well to maximize the potential of all of your dmg'ing moves. Remember to couple FoF with bloodbath and rampart for additional defense/self-healing) > RoH combo in which both Savage Blade and RoH land on distinct targets (the idea is not only for dmg, but to spread the Str down Debuff as widely as possible).
During your RoH combo, you should also be using Shield swipe when it becomes available. Like RoH, be sure to use it on an individual target to spread your enmity around as much as possible, and ensure that someone gets pacified. If you're still worried about aggro, or have an AoE happy Dps in your team, you can pop an additional Flash after or during this combo, but stick to it. You can get creative with it as well. Once you have primary aggro, if you are confident you're not going to lose it feel free to start applying Goring blade throughout the targets to help the Dps, but this is more of an advanced Pld thing, because you have to be very aware of how much hate you have and if you're gonna lose it. It was a lot easier to do when Shield Swipe was on the GCD, because you could thread it into your combo (ie: FB>SW>RB>SW>GB), but the glory days are dead. Still, if you start using your Goring Blade combo to speed things up, I recommend keeping an extra vigilant eye out for any additional Shield Swipes you can use to help maintain aggro when you're off your Primary RoH.
For Boss tanking, your rotation can get played around with quite a bit. My standard rotation (which I modify accordingly) is:
Shield Lob > CoS > RoH (Debuff up) > Goring Blade (DoT up) > RoH (Re-apply Debuff) > Royal Authority ( Both DoT and Debuff will remain up while you use RA) > Goring Blade (re-apply DoT) > RoH (Reapply Debuff)... etc.
The Idea is to keep both Goring Blade and the RoH Debuff up at all times. With most Pld skill speeds, this rotation ensures that neither will drop (RoH's debuff might drop before the third application, but only for a very short time), and, of course, make sure to use Shield Swipe/Spirits within whenever they are available (keep in mind that Spirits Within scales with your health %, so if you are low on health it may be worth while to wait for a heal to get tossed your way).
Now, depending on your item level and comfort level, you may want to vary this rotation a little. Some Pld's like to open up with 2 RoH combos to absolutely ensure they have enmity before moving on to applying DoT's and dmg. That's fine. There's nothing wrong with it. It's all about what you are comfortable with. Also, keep in mind that there are some fights in which it is not necessary to keep the RoH debuff up (A4, for example). The RoH debuff only reduces physical dmg. Most bosses in the game do a healthy amount of physical dmg, but if the boss you're fighting does not, after you have secured aggro you can forego reapplying RoH for an extra Royal Authority. You still want to use RoH, because it maintains threat, but keeping up the Debuff no longer becomes a priority, so it's fine to let it drop and squeeze in a little extra dmg.
Lastly, and this is the "controversial" topic, is Stance Dancing. Pld's can, in fact, stance dance and hold hate, but you have to be aware that it is much more difficult and you should probably never start a fight in Sword Oath (unless you severely outgear the dungeon). The Hate multiplier for Shield Oath is... "Substantial," to avoid any specific numbers. So any enmity move you are using outside of Shield Oath takes a big dip in enmity potency. That said, it also takes a pretty big jump in Dmg potency (20%). I'm not overly concerned with Def, usually, because a Pld can compensate with the right buffs, or just telling the healer that they are swapping Oaths, but you do take 20% more dmg, so be prepared.
Using Sword Oath is not just about increasing your damage willy-nilly though. An advanced Pld tactic is to plan their use of Sword Oath accordingly. A good time for this is when FoF is available. After initial pull (in Shield Oath) when FoF circles back around, IF the fight is going well and you think the healer can handle it, a Pld can swap to Sword Oath, pop FoF/Bloodbath/Rampart and go to town. Dmg potency increases by 50% over Shield Oath, 30% over baseline (as opposed to 10% when in Shield Oath). If you are going to do this, a good idea is to time it for your Goring Blade combo. That way, you are maximizing your DoT/RA rotation to take full advantage of that FoF. The DoT will actually act as a second timer. You should be back in Shield Oath by the time it needs to be reapplied. Again, this is an advanced thing to do and you really have to be comfortable with your rotations and buffs (including knowing which buffs work best together and share CD timers) to do it well, and it can be changed accordingly to fit your play style. Once you get comfortable with Pld, start playing around with different rotations and see what works for you. -
11-24-2015, 04:06 AMAurius
More great, well explained advice, thanks!