I don't understand why there is such a huge emphasis on "spammy" recipes in this game. Having just started out, attempting to level my professions, I notice I have to rely on singular crafts as opposed to group crafts.
TLDR Version: Crafting is too "spammy" and focused on single input crafts. Crafts requiring more inputs should give more exp.
I know some people will tell me I don't know how good I have it, having started after 1.19, but I did do crafting in beta (made bronze mitt gauntlets and a bronze barbut). And keep in mind just because it's better than it was before, doesn't justify what is still a system with fundamental flaws.
As an example with carpenter.
Like any reasonable human, as a carpenter I spent my lower levels crafting lumber. Now, to craft maple lumber there are two recipes: 1x maple log, 1x wind shard OR 3x maple log, 3x wind shard. Both recipes operate on a 1:1 ratio, 1 maple lumber per maple log put in.
So, what did I have to do to skill up? Craft 60 maple lumber, one at a time. What would have been nice? Being able to justify using the 3x maple log recipe. Why didn't I? Well, the 1x log recipe gave 300 exp, the 3x log recipe gave... 300 xp.
The same can be said about other jobs, though sometimes not as egregious (for example, when making iron ingots it's either 3 for 1, or 8 for 3. the 8 for 3 is better volume than 3 for 1, so kind of justifies its existence.)
The same problem crops its head when considering skilling up on other things. Why make recipes that take 4 materials when you can make ones that take 2 or 3? And that's ultimately the problem. The system greatly favors "spamming" "small" crafts, crafts that take 1 or 2 materials.
How the system should work: The exp you gain after a successful craft should be proportional to the number of inputs. As a formula, something like 200x number of materials x (Craft Level / Skill level)*. (* The craft level / skill level ratio is just to indicate that as you outlevel crafts, the exp goes down, while crafts above your level give more exp. It doesn't need to be the exact ratio, and would probably be more complex in game).
Going back to the maple logs example, the 3x maple lumber recipe would give 3x as much experience as the 1x maple lumber recipe. It would also encourage people to craft more complex items to keep or sell while skilling up, because the more materials, the more experience to be gained.
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10-14-2011, 07:07 AMHachikoCrafting should be adjusted: More input materials should = more exp
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10-14-2011, 07:11 AMLemmingKingXXX
I just want batch recipes, if I can slice up one fish into sand with a wind shard then really I should be able to slice up a big pot of fish with several shards, it's all slice'n'dice
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10-14-2011, 07:19 AMJinko
Totally agree that recipes that give multiple output should have multiple amounts of the XP, its makes total sense and TBH didn't even realise this wasn't the case.
It makes even more sense considering the fact if you fail with a x3 recipe the risk is so much higher.
I guess I'll be crafting 1x from now on, how boring thats guna be, but at least I get 3 times the XP. -
10-14-2011, 07:21 AMAriaHawksong
I would agree as well, but some may argue that is the sacrifice you make if you want to make more materials to save time. And this is most likely the reason that there is no increase in exp for batch synthesis. On the other hand, I wouldn't turn down a boost , even if it isn't double or triple what the single synthesis gives.
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10-14-2011, 07:57 AMBahnPretty much this. I would agree that there should be an increase, but not a 300% increase. You're sacrificing more mats to save time, so I think it's only reasonable that to counteract the time you're saving for the recipe you should not get 3x more rewards. These "batch" recipes are more for higher level crafters who want to craft a lot of the same thing at the same time, but don't want to spend time on the base mats for the recipes. The OP's logic does make sense, but I get a feeling some people will disagree and will say that will make low level crafting too easy to level (probably the more hardcore players who had to suffer through the system back during the first days of the game).Quote:
Originally Posted by AriaHawksong
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10-14-2011, 08:03 AMHachiko
I can sort of appreciate the "too easy to level" thought, but really, we're not talking about ease but tedium.
I've already gathered the mats. I have the appropriate gear / skill to do the craft. But I must spend 3x as long crafting to preserve the "difficulty?" Essentially I have to sit there spamming enter 3x as long, because that's what it all boils down to.
At least with bigger synths giving more experience it would get people to consider doing bigger synths for exp, which would get them to think about their synth because the price of failure is higher.
Conceptually it doesn't make sense either. Why would you get less experience creating 3 lengths of lumber 1 at a time, rather than together. Either way you're doing the same amount of "work" to create the same amount of lumber.
Conceptually, it also makes sense that making a variety of items would also be more "experience" than making the same plank of lumber all day.
There's no real downside, and at the very least, crafting things like gear and weapons, things that take several inputs from multiple jobs, should net more experience than say, crafting a single material like lumber. -
10-14-2011, 08:08 AMFrein
I think this suggestion will simply make people ignore simple synths in favour of complex ones. Cost and especially time are the major obstacles for leveling crafting, so if you can cut the time component by 2/3 simply by using recipes with many ingredients, that's what people will do. Of course that would make leveling crafting classes much faster, which at the current state of crafting may not be completely undesirable.
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10-14-2011, 08:45 AMPolaritie
Let me put it this way. Why does the Lumber x3 recipe not give more xp than Lumber x1?
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10-14-2011, 08:50 AMMariyaShidou
Just raise the level for 3x Lumber, that will give you more EXP at the same more difficult (and make sense, if you are trying to process some times 3 times faster than normal, isn't it more difficult?). What you don't realise is that crafting EXP is based on difficulty, or rather the level difference between you and the recipe. Same level of difference give same amount of EXP. You may want to have the 3x Lumber recipe remain the same difficulty but give more EXP, that won't happen. What did people say about PL that they are fixing today?
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10-14-2011, 08:56 AMKalaKenshu
Because the main function of the 3x recipe is to save time for crafters who AREN'T using the synth for xp. That's why it's there.. to save people time when making a bunch of mats.
Why is the 1x recipe there? Either to level, or people who only need one or two lumbers. Simple as that.
HOWEVER, I do agree... I would like to see the leveling process be less tedius and more challenging, or interesting even. Because right now, it just isn't. And that's kind of too bad!! At first it's kinda fun, but you only get new skills every 15-20 levels. Plus, like you said the most cost efficient, time efficient way to skill up is to just do easy synths that give decent xp. More complex crafts should most definitely give more xp. That would give crafters a real incentive to actually craft, say, lower level armor or weapons, etc. instead of spamming lumber all day. -
10-14-2011, 09:00 AMDenmoIt's a choice for you. You can craft many so you can move on to equipment, or craft one at a time so you can get 3x the exp. I don't see the problem. And if there should be a fix, I agree with:Quote:
Originally Posted by Polaritie
Quote:
Just raise the level for 3x Lumber, that will give you more EXP at the same more difficult
On a side note: Anyone notice how ridiculously low the cost of crystals/shards per synth is? A rank 50 only requires AT MOST 10 shards and 1 crystal. You get that amount for every 3 enemy encounters! Should SE reduce the crystal drop rate, or raise the crystal requirements? -
10-14-2011, 09:48 AMFreinAnd these new abilities don't even help with the leveling process, because using them slows you down and reduces your exp rate more than the improved chance of success increases it.Quote:
Originally Posted by KalaKenshu
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10-14-2011, 09:57 AMMariyaShidouGuess I'm the only one bother to use skill when grinding on 5+ lvl higher recipe >_>Quote:
Originally Posted by Frein
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10-14-2011, 03:26 PMBahnWhat new abilities? Are you saying using Maker's Muse, Preserve, etc actually LOWERS my experience gained? Where did you get this info?Quote:
Originally Posted by Frein
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10-14-2011, 03:45 PMEmeraldHill
You shouldn't be... punished for using the 3x recipes.
The logic should be: If you have the mats to do so, then do it to save time and get through your stack of crap faster. If anything, it should take more shards or something.
Not: Sacrifice all your exp just to save time because the crafting system is neither fun nor engaging.
Face it, crafting is a long and boring grind. Nothing interesting ever happens, "skill" plays a very minor role, and most of the time you're going to be sitting there with your head on your keyboard pressing enter with your nose repeatedly because that makes it more interesting.
It either needs to be made interesting or give us the usual crafting of clicking "Make X" so we can go afk. -
10-15-2011, 06:09 AMHachikoIt doesn't lower exp directly, but ultimately it does. The most effective way to level is to level on something that is about your level, takes few mats. Something you can just gather a bunch of stuff for, and craft 100 of for 300 exp a peice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahn
In that situation, you're better off just spamming enter. By doing so, you leave no time to select your optional proccing skills. to slow down your pace enough to do so significantly slows down your exp gain, while not netting you an appreciable benefit (becuase you don't need the skills to complete the easy synths).
Sure, makers muse, preserve, tender touch, they can help you finish more difficult crafts. But, in doing more difficult synths you take on two additional factors. Now you have to do things like wait, and spend extra time using your procced abilities. But you also increase your chance of failure. To add insult to injury, often the more complicated synths also take more materials (thus increasing the risk of failure).
In other words, yeah, I can finish a synth 5 levels above me using skills and carefully synthing, but it takes twice as long, and twice as many mats, and I still might fail. I can complete two basic lumber synths in the same amount of time, so why would I not do that instead?
Exactly. It isn't really a good "choice" for the game development. It's basically saying "if you want the most experience, you're going to sit there and spam enter 3x as many times, even though you have the skill and mats to make the same amount of stuff."Quote:
Originally Posted by EmeraldHill
It's needless, and it is degenerative game design. It's already an additional "risk" to craft recipes with more mats (because a failure is much more costly), it shouldn't also be less experience even on success as well.