BRD and MCH support outside the progression

Hello there, noob machinist here, I would like to ask if the support these two classes provide is good enough in 4man/faceroll content as I am a little bit worried about that.

The main reason for it is that on my other jobs having MCH or BRD in a group usually means that the run is going to take a while, so I have to wonder if their support abilities warrant them the spot in everyday content.

Getting through my Vault grind atm, I have uncloked all the MCH support abilities and they feel kinda weak, unless other players are doing something wrong.

Dismantle / Rend Mind - 5% dmg reduction 10 seconds out of 90. This seems barely noticable, not to mention that they share CD and you need to know what type of damage is the boss doing. In everyday runs this doesn't seem to help much.

TP/MP regeneration. I bet these are great in long fights, but how often do you get oom or ootp while doing your daily/weekly grind? So far I have been using these mainly while being ootp myself... it is kinda funny as mostly I am the one out of TP when doing aoe. I have to wonder if MCH abilities aren't overpriced due to this turret skill.

Hypercharge - 5% dmg increase. This is really awesome ability till you realise that... It is on 15 seconds out of 120. So you increase dps of party by 5% during 12.5% of encounter. Just this makes the ability seem a lot weaker... and it gets worse. You need to choose between physical or magical damage, which actually means 2.5% dps 12.5% of time. And then there are 4man groups in which the effect is even weaker...

It sorta feels like the support isn't good enough, so I want to ask what is your opinion about this topic?

No, the support skills aren't worth all that much in 4 man content. The best you'll get out of then is turret battery for AoE'ing trash, but most classes can provide decent sustain for themselves. BLM, for example, will only ever need the MP regen if they botch their rotation badly and miss a switch in to Umbral.

As a MCH, the most reliable thing you bring to 4 man content, in my experience, is wildfire burst combo, don't underestimate what a hard push it is.

If you learn to maximise your wildfire burst, machinist can do a pretty solid amount of damage. Not to mention that during trash pulls you're more valuable than a melee. In four man pulls pretty much all the ranged have a place as they do superior aoe damage than the melee.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iz_Lemon

If you learn to maximise your wildfire burst, machinist can do a pretty solid amount of damage. Not to mention that during trash pulls you're more valuable than a melee. In four man pulls pretty much all the ranged have a place as they do superior aoe damage than the melee.

---

I kinda wish Wildfire exploded three times (every 5 sec.) as the burst kills most of the trash mobs before it can explode... and it is really disappointing to see it wasted.

Typically you don't need their MP/TP restorations in dungeons, but BRD/MCH have such strong AoE and multi-DoTs that they are not a liability on the trash. Far from it, they're in the upper ranks of the DPS, and if pulls do last particularly long for some reason their TP restorations will be relevant.

MCH/BRD are in exceptionally good spots for dungeons, don't worry about that. Any slow runs you've had in the past are due to player skill; TBH, most PUG DPS, even the ones who have pride, are pretty sub-par compared to the potential the classes have. I've been leveling some of my final classes the last couple days, and out of MNK, BLM, SMN, MCH, and DRG, the best fellow PUG DPS I got was a DRG on both the trash pulls and boss fights due to him actually understanding the game, when ordinarily the BLM/SMN/MNK/MCH would have destroyed him (at the least on the trash pulls).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archaell

The main reason for it is that on my other jobs having MCH or BRD in a group usually means that the run is going to take a while

---

It's not really longer than with any other class, given that you are skilled enough.
It's usually poor skill that makes run to take a while, not a class composition.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felessan

It's not really longer than with any other class, given that you are skilled enough.
It's usually poor skill that makes run to take a while, not a class composition.

---

So much this ^^

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felessan

It's not really longer than with any other class, given that you are skilled enough.
It's usually poor skill that makes run to take a while, not a class composition.

---

Yup this soooooo much. As a bard at times wound up with another bard in dungeon runs. Could have cried at their poor performance. Then other times went with my friend as bard for a run who even though says bad at dps still does a commendable job and a tank or healer goes: "sigh 2 bards this will be slow". And we just melt everything. So yeah skill is a large part of it.

MCH burst aoe dps in 4 man content verges on filthy (buffs, hotshot, hypercharged bishop, reload, rapid fire and granado shot/spread shot really adds up fast). I find that the support functionality of MCH doesnt really make a difference in a dungeon to a great extent, although i do use promoted rook on myself to perpetuate aoe dps when needed. Also brings high burst dps for bosses, although i find in dungeons its a play off between using cooldowns for bursting trash mobs via aoe vs burst wildfire damage for bosses - its a bit hard to manage cooldowns to do both without lots of down time before boss pulls.

All in all MCH is in a good place for 4 man content.

There are a big misconception with BRD/MCH = low DPS in dungeons and in general.
Mostly because 90% of MCH/BRD are so bad that they push 500 DPS at lvl60, ignoring minuet or gauss ...
They ignore multidotting as well to have some free AOE proc. The playstyle change at 52-54 so they are completely lost and don't want to improve.
Some classes does well enough with basic combo rotation/skill. A bad smn will do 750 for example.

I'm always top DPS as a BRD in expert dungeon roulette, with my fellow WHM friend second 95% of the time o_o
This should not happen when you have a MNK/SMN/BLM/DRG as a partner.

Yeah....I can confidently say as a Machinist I've never been beaten by any random DPS in ex roullette. Generally 90 percent of all players that do It are equally terrible with a 10 percent chance of getting someone who isn't half brain dead. Has nothing to do with any of the jobs and how good or bad the job is but the players themselves.

We don't need your support in 4-man content. 4-man content is so easy that no one should discriminate against you based on DPS. Just know your rotation and keep your gear up to date and you're worth your slot.

Well it is just player skill for sure because i have even done more dps as PLD then dps classes, lol
I was actually vey impressed the one time i ran as Ninja with a Machinist, the dps seemed very impressive, just do not recall the person's name
It is still a misconception out there that people have if they see 2 Bards or Bard+Machinist that a dungeon run will be slow.
At the beginning of hw though runs were rather slow until people got familiar with the new class and changes to Bard

I do just fine in 4 man content. What scares me is how many complements I have gotten from people in the 4 man Ex Roulette or equal runs where people go "wow that was fast" or "what a smooth run." That seems to make me think that there are so many bad MCH/BRD out there that give us a bad name.

The only time that I groan is when its double MCH or MCH + BRD runs. Those seem to take a little longer than normal and that's just the nature of the beast when running with double support base classes.

You come across a LOT of players that don't even try at all in roulette. So any class you play, if you do it right, can make a big difference.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bardaboo

You come across a LOT of players that don't even try at all in roulette. So any class you play, if you do it right, can make a big difference.

---

This includes Void Ark :(

It's handy to have the Tp regent when you're running with a bad AOE class like a Dragoon

MCH does particularly bad in roulette because of how it's designed. Boss invulnerability phases. Phase changes. Mobs dying too fast. The entire job is built around wildfire which doesn't work well in 4 man content

Most 4 man content has an absurd amount of dodge mechanics compared to raids which also screws with your DPS a lot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KeluBehemoth

It's handy to have the Tp regent when you're running with a bad AOE class like a Dragoon

---

You're doing something terribly wrong if you consider dragoon a "bad AOE class"

MCH wildfire has a 90 second recast timer, long enough to use accordingly on bosses since no boss to my knowledge goes invuln within 15 seconds (duration of wildfire) of the start of the fight except maybe titan hard/ex if you push dps fast enough. Sure it takes a bit of prior knowledge of some encounters to properly use wildfire, but every major fight is scripted to the point where with enough repetition you SHOULD know when to use/not use your major abilities.

Anyway, like others have mentioned, most pug dps in 4 man dungeons don't try, or aren't proficient in their class. What's frustrating is when you try to correct them and they get super defensive about it instead of taking your advice. MCH and BRD are fine in dungeons if played to their potential.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KeluBehemoth

MCH does particularly bad in roulette because of how it's designed. Boss invulnerability phases. Phase changes. Mobs dying too fast. The entire job is built around wildfire which doesn't work well in 4 man content

---

Would be nice if machinist could fire of wildfire early it's they know they won't make the timer for it to for off.

I'd say BRDs are more useful than MCH in DF mostly due to foes req. If you manage to team up with a smn/blm and a healer that likes to dps

Pretty sure Foe directly affects DRK's enmity generation in pulls. Unleash is insane.

Anyway, there are still way too many rangers who just don't want to play Foe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KeluBehemoth

MCH does particularly bad in roulette because of how it's designed. Boss invulnerability phases. Phase changes. Mobs dying too fast. The entire job is built around wildfire which doesn't work well in 4 man content

---

The only boss in dungeons at the moment that wildfire is an issue with is the first one in Neverreap. Any other boss and any other pull a tank makes, wildfire is a non issue to a skilled machinist. If it is an issue, then that is entirely down to the players skill with the class and not the class itself. Mobs dying too fast made me giggle, as you obviously didn't read my previous post in this thread about machinist aoe dps in dungeons.
All in all, what your posts have described is a bad player playing machinist and not an issue with the class itself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Behb

A bad smn will do 750 for example.

---

Unfortunately no.
Just the other day saw a SMN who did run-wide average 500 dps. Melee with 400-500 dps are common too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Griffeth

The only time that I groan is when its double MCH or MCH + BRD runs. Those seem to take a little longer than normal and that's just the nature of the beast when running with double support base classes.

---

If BRD and MCH both can pull 1k+ on bosses and 1.5k+ on trash pulls, run will be faster than any usual DF roulette, and those number are not that hard to achieve for both classes. Me with friends did some runs with WAR+WHM+BRD+MCH and they weren't slow by any means.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by myahele

I'd say BRDs are more useful than MCH in DF mostly due to foes req. If you manage to team up with a smn/blm and a healer that likes to dps

---

99% of bards don't bother with Foe in roulette parties.