Archers and armor
Well the reason of this post is I am somewhat bored and annoyed, by common opinion about archr being support in light armor. I tried to find from where it begun, and i think the main reason is the Thief game. A game in which you used bow to do everything except kiling things.But even earlier in DnD games archery was tuned down in sake of balance ( its not very heroic to kill everything you throw at players before it even can see them). To offset that 'nerf' archery classes were usually bounded with some other 'useful' skills, like thieves, bards, and stuff. And in thet the classes were usually heavilly dependant on mobility, sneaking and such, which favoured lihgt armor. And for them bow was secodary equipment.
But in FFXIV, we have archer. Person who is dedicated to bow. Not some rouge type from some shoddy alley, but profesional bowman. And thats the difference.
From military point of view there were 2 kinds of archers. Light, which were based on maneuver and speed for hit and run tactics, and regular ones which were armored. Most countries armored archers quite heavily. Looking at Roman legions most archers wore chainmail, most of eastern troops did same ( either ringmail or scale mail) The reason most of archers were lightly armored ws purely cost of full armor. And main diference beore archers inlight and heavy troops were skill and experioence. Most of armored one were highly trained troops, while light were conscript expendables. Training of a good archer was taking long time, and for that investemnt it was worth protecting. But also to the degree. During medival times for a price of a good platemail you could buy a couple of villages. Only the wealthies could afford it, and the one who could wouldnt bother to be archers. They were knights, and their way of fighting was stabing, smashig, charging and stuff. Only exception was Japan, where archery was conisdedred an art, and was widely practiced by samurais, which armored thammselves as hard as they could <_<
The TL'DR point is, that archers were second line troops, and except elite troops it wasnt cost efective to heavily armor them.
However when cost didnt matter, in Seleucid empire there were units of cataphrat archers which were prbably the closest equivalent to a tank that ancient army could get. Similar units were used by parthians and continued through sasanid empire suplied by super heavy cataphrats with lances.
In short summary, in a game only limiting factor should be costs, not some dev-imposed restrictions. And yes, heavy armor should give penalties especialy to mobility, and to some degree to speed at which archer can fire, but if you can affoprd plate, than by all means use it.
The two points that should also need to be looked is 1) price of plate armor in MMO's in general is ridiculously small and 2) archers in FFXIV dont have range. I mean we cant shoot for more than 10 metres anyway, so why bpther shooting? it would be more effective to stab enemies with arrows at this range...
In very very short gamer perception of archer is usually like this
http://bulk.destructoid.com/ul/user/...s5jpg-468x.jpg
and not like this
http://www.radpour.com/images/storie...ian_archer.jpg
I know i posted it on class forums but i think it will be better here
Archers and armor
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10-13-2011, 02:25 AMLamhirhArchers and armor
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10-13-2011, 02:29 AMGreatLeviathan
Yeah Archers lack on nice and cool gear.
I am a lvl 49 archer and have to settle with "workboots".....
While a GLA and MRD have like 3 or 4 difrent outfits to choose from as in Armor and light armor.
We archers have like 1 outfit at 50 and it's not even that good looking.
Wish i had some more option too to choose from with armor. -
10-13-2011, 02:30 AMArcell
Yeah except we're talking about game balance here. If Archers could wear Cobalt armor as effectively as anyone else, they'd be a bit broken. Part of the justification for the range and damage they do is that if they were to get aggro they would die, quickly. Archers in FFXIV DO have range, in fact I believe they've got a greater range than any other class in the game mages included.
Edit: Also you'd be destroying the class distinction people so love. I mean with your logic why not have everyone wear plate armor? I mean the only limiting factor should be the gil in our pockets right? Just have everyone wearing Red Cobalt armor! -
10-13-2011, 02:34 AMLamhirh
But the point of using bow was ability to deal damage from far beyond close combat enemy. I unerstand some balance issues, thats why i say that armor should influence movemebt speed and rate of fire. But when archers have NO real range ( all mobs can get close to archer in time required to shoot once) and no armor, than why use bow? ( except for coolnes factor and fact that I LIKE bows). Rigt now SE is going the same DnDish path again ( we dont want people to really kill stuff from range, so we will make archer some kind of thiefish trick user, or maybe give him some buff ability)
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10-13-2011, 02:36 AMKrausus
people still play archer???? i kid i kid
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10-13-2011, 02:38 AMArcellSee you're talking in terms of solo content. If you were playing in a party, as long as you're not pulling hate like an idiot, the monsters should be NOWHERE near you. You should be able to stand safely out of almost all AoE range too with Archer. They do have real range but when you're the only target of course the monster is going to come straight for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lamhirh
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10-13-2011, 02:47 AMLamhirh
I usually run around Limsa, and terrain is usually forcing me to com to pointblank range anyway. and this is not range. Bows were effective from hundred of metres. There is no real ability to kite monsters in solo, and without armor there is no real way of doing anything beside standing and hoping you can outdamage it, and with recent nerf... And in party... well i get all agro just by looking at mob, even thoug hi have agro reducing traits. and i lately do no damage
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10-13-2011, 03:27 AMIsaaru^This lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Krausus
ARC is lacking some cool looking gear, though. -
10-13-2011, 04:15 AMArcellActually you can kite, you just have to know the vast limitations of your bind skills. It's not the best but it's possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lamhirh
If you're constantly pulling aggro in parties either your tank sucks, you're not keeping your enmity down or both. Enmity management is a team effort now. -
10-13-2011, 08:40 AMMariyaShidou
As you've already said, they "nerf" Archer armour for the sake of balancing. I don't see whatever reason why most Mages are usually depicted in Cloth in most games, other than for the sake of balancing (ALL HAIL NEMEROTH, FIRST SORCERER IN TERMINATOR ARMOUR).
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10-13-2011, 08:57 AMRecyclerAgree. Basically a R50 archer only has 2 bows to choose from: either the crab bow (nearly everyone is using it on my server) or yew longbow (which can be considered even better in stats, but it looks boring as hell!)Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaaru
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10-13-2011, 09:00 AMMariyaShidou
You have Ul'dahn Longbow, Verdant Shortbow and Ifrit Bow, whut? Most classes only has two weapons to choose from at high level.
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10-13-2011, 03:33 PMGreatLeviathanno we do not have uldahn bow if you choose another GC.Quote:
Originally Posted by MariyaShidou
Never even saw the verdant shortbow.
And the ifrit bow is for party's only..
So yeah basicly we have the crab bow lvl 49 and the yew bow lvl 46.
Archers lack at cool gear and weapons..
You say most classes have 2?
But most classes have cool gear like 3 or even 4 difrent kinds of gear sets.
We have 1...
So yeah i agree that we should not be wearing heavy armor but dang at least give us some more light armor to choose from then 1.
Same with mages.. Give them something more then a piece of cloth.. -
10-13-2011, 08:20 PMLamhirh
There are other ways of balancing, but the loud part of boards can not grasp that archer can be anythingn else than a rouge. And that is real problem