Worried About Endgame Tanking

Hello there! Thank you for taking the time to click on this thread. :) Please let me know if this is in the wrong location, and I will figure out how to move this to that location.

I am a relatively new tank to FFXIV still (playing since June this year) and I'm pretty casual. I've tanked for a couple years in SWTOR and raided on there, so I get the general gist of tanking, I'd like to think at least. :)

Anyways, on topic, last night I ran Aery with my wife and let's just say that it was the worst run I've had in this game so far. We only wiped once, but the attitude left a sour taste in my mouth. It was through Duty Finder, though very rarely have I ever had an issue in duty finder.

Basically, we wiped on a trash pull with the sleeping dragon because I skip the sleeping dragons because they take a long time to kill and I see it as an avoidable kill. I try to make this obvious by marking the little ones as "2" and "3" and hugging the edge to get the Nehd on the next platform. However, the Bard DPS had their Foe Requiem on, pulled the sleeping dragon, and we wiped because the healer was DPSing at the time, and I am pretty squishy unfortunately because I'm still trying to gear up.

Anyways, both the Bard and Healer said I should have given them warning next time and that they didn't expect me to do such a big pull. (I like to do "baby pulls" as people put it). It turned into a slight argument, but we carried on and finished the dungeons. (However, I almost died multiple times because of lack of heals).

TL;DR: End game; is it rushrushrush, no fun, and are dungeons so rigid in procedure that I need to learn a specific procedure to tank okay in a PuG? I kind of got disenchanted with tanking in that one run, because I am under the impression that this is what I have to look forward to.

Thank you for taking the time to read this, and I hope you have a wonderful day! :)

Hi Sayaka! I notice we're on the same server so that's awesome! My wife and I duo content as well and mostly through DF. There are unfortunately a good number of impatient players in DF, but thankfully in my experience, they haven't been the majority.

People tend to forget that the reason why tanks can do large pulls during end game is because everyone is usually over geared by that point. If you're still leveling or gearing up, it is perfectly reasonable to do small pulls as you get used to the content.

In my opinion, there is no need to try and live up to other's expectations. Once you've geared your tank up, and run each dungeon multiple times. You'll naturally become more confident and you'll see yourself pulling group and groups of mobs just like the rest of us! Or don't, its really up to you.

Hit me up in game if you ever want to do a dungeon, raid, or whatever.

Well, unless your whole party is lvl 60 there's no such thing as an "avoidable mob" that's exp yo. But being the tank, the "unofficial party leader" as others have said its up to you how fast/big pulls are. I only do bigger pulls if the party composition is right for it as in if I get 2 melee or a melee and a blm I'll be doing smaller pulls because the only point to big pulls is for AOE damage, little to no AOE = absolutely no point to big pulls.

Hi Lan!

Thank you for the speedy reply! :)

I suppose we've just been very fortunate to have patient players in most DF runs we've done, or very kind players at the very least. But now that we've hit Heavensward content, I am seeing a definite shift in how things are done, which is to be expected with the most current content.

I'd love to friend you both and hopefully we can have fun together! Unfortunately, all I have is a high level tank haha. :) My partner is a DPS, so hopefully we can fill the gaps that way!

I'm getting more confident with each dungeon, however, end game is still always intimidating when first going at it since there is much to learn right off the bat. :)

Thanks again Lan and have a lovely day!

Hi Damon!

Indeed! My partner is a NIN, so I don't do big pulls because, as you said and she tells me, it takes a bit longer since she doesn't have the high damage AoEs some other classes do. I mostly skip the dragon because when some friends took us for our first clear, they said "Let sleeping dragons sleep", as did a couple DF groups. :) I suppose that's just how I learned it!

Thank you for the response, have a great day!

btw, did you mean sohm al? I don't recall a sleeping dragon in Aery (nidhogg is the boss there). There's a lot of sleeping dragons in Sohm Al though (Tiomat is end boss).

There are certain ways people expect dungeons to go, and slight deviations in the way people run them do tend to confuse others. I ran stone vigil as a summoner as part of a DF and was asked to use the cannons in the 2nd fight (where I normally expected healers to do them, but everyone else seemed to think it was normal for dps). Ended up wiping the first time and getting blamed because nobody was handling the dragon until it was too late.

Just try to be clear with people on how you tank and the tactics you're using. Many healers are running a razor's edge with tanks (and the expansion dungeons are not "easy" to heal), and this has been exasperated with tanks not using tanking gear at endgame. It sounds very clear that it was the bard's fault for not knowing the range of their song and aggroing more than you intended. Otherwise, just try to pay attention to the music a little bit. It tends to change when the party is in combat or aggro'ed (dungeon music can be very subtle so not sure if sohm al is easy to distinguish). An indicator by the player should also turn red when they have aggro (and flashes when you're about to lose aggro to them)

Hi Anova!

It's The Aery with the trash mobs between the first boss and second boss. It's the neat area where it looks like you're running across webs in a large cave. I suppose I should have made it clear on what I was doing. I think I was just getting stuck in a motion since that was my 8th time running it straight that day. :)

Stone Vigil, all the runs I did, someone generally volunteered to do it since I can;t and my partner is melee DPS. Though in your case, no one should have been blamed, in my opinion, since it should have been figured out prior to boss pull.

Thank you for the advice! They are in no way easy to heal for sure, I can see that. Especially when I am geared at or below the level that is needed. I am staying away from Slaying gear (much against the advice of my FC leader) because I think such gear should be used when in a comfortable group.

I'm hoping that once I get to end game, I'll have more friends with the same idea of playing for fun, and not running parsers when doing these little dungeons. :) It's all about finding people to play with your playstyle, or close to it at least, as I found in SWTOR as well.

Thank you for the advice and response Anova, and have a lovely day!

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Originally Posted by Anova

btw, did you mean sohm al? I don't recall a sleeping dragon in Aery (nidhogg is the boss there). There's a lot of sleeping dragons in Sohm Al though (Tiomat is end boss).

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There are 3 sleeping dragons, red colored, on the way to the 2nd boss.

@OP
Taking your story at face value, it sounds like your healer didn't know when to DPS or when to heal. If you're under geared I'd suggest you go and do the side quest to gear up as HW gives you any gear you need from 51-60 through it's quests for one job and is probably better than the dungeon drops for the dungeon you're doing, slightly.

If you're at the level needed, then no you're not squashy and should be able to perform large pulls assuming you know how to do defensive rotations on the tank that you're playing. After that it falls into the hands of your DPS to know how to maximize their dps through AoE actions and your healer's ability to know how and when to cure you.

Hello Seku!

Indeed, I have noticed that the HQ gear for level 56 is better by a small amount than the gear dropped in the Aery. Unfortunately, I seem to have missed any of the side quests that give necklaces/earrings so those are very poor in my gear right now. Perhaps I should take another look through the moogle quests.

I try to work in my DCD all the time during pulls, saving the better ones for bigger pulls, so the healer can have fun DPSing, since I just cannot seem to put out much DPS on my PLD, and overall I think that healers can generally do more DPS with Cleric stance anyways. Though I don't know much in that field; just my assumptions. :)

Thank you for the reply Seku, and have a fantastic day! ^^

When leveling it's wise to pull anything you can pull on your way to the boss. In DF (when I actually played this game more) I'd usually ask at the start of the dungeon if people wanted optional pulls for exp and I let majority rule. If you're passing by the sleeping dragon anyway you might as well pull it along.

In terms of end game, there's 2 dungeons so... you basically have to just be able to do those decently and you're solid. In 3.1 they're adding 2 more, but none of us knows what will be going on in there so you're basically in the same boat as us. Things can always go wrong, but try to learn from mistakes (whether it's your's or someone else's) and don't give up. Eventually you'll be able to carry the team on your back and any problems you had will disappear.

Hello Kori!

You make a very valid point! While I've been leveling my WAR & DRK lately, I always ask if people want a full clear or just a normal run. Usually I am met with silence, so I gauge the group and how we do on the first few pulls to see if a full clear is in the cards or not. Also, the little signs certain players make gives away what they may prefer (ex. DPS running forward without finishing the current mob off) tips me off that even though they didn't say anything, they do not want a full clear.

Also, I thought all this talk about expert roulette included all the HW dungeons. That was my mistake. Generally, I view people's search notes and if I see ilvl 190+ or some such business as that, I know they will want to go fast. But as I've had a friend tell me, I should go at my own pace and what I am comfortable with. :) Once I get more used to the dungeons and tanking with all the other classes, perhaps then I will be much more open to large pulls.

Thank you for the response + advice and have a fantastic day! ^-^/

You should have given them a warning. Always tell your party members what you are about to do whether its skipping adds or doing a larger pull than normal.

Hello Derio!

I shall from now on. :) When leveling my first class, I did tend to communicate more. However, more often then not, I was met with complete silence, disregard to chat, or very rarely a "Just shut up and tank." I came to the understanding that other than the hello and thank you for group most people prefer not to communicate when using the DF.

However, if this is something that is much more preferred at end game, it will be something to strive for.

Thanks again, and have a wonderful day! :D

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Originally Posted by ViolaKruger

"Just shut up and tank."

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lol, I don't think I've ever gotten that response before. I honestly don't know how I'd react to that. It does feel like a lot of people in DF are anti-social. Probably has something to do with the knowledge that they probably won't party with the same people again. Kinda sad. :(

the dragons shouldnt be taking any longer than 30s to kill...sounds like bad dps

Don't let this experience get you down! Use a better approach next time to protect your tanking morale. :)

First, never argue with people in Duty Finder. No one wins.
Next, think about your goal. Do you want to finish? If so, don't argue. Maybe apologize. Sometimes I tank player aggro by pretending stuff is my fault. Then push on. You'll complete the dungeon, and they'll get over it. If they don't, kick them.
If you reach your limit of strangers yelling at you, then kick or leave. You'll feel good about standing up for yourself.

In the case of sleeping dragons, if you wipe because someone pulls one, kill the rest.
Or ask about the dragons to avoid the problem.

Also remember that wiping with strangers is no big deal. You have no idea what everyone expects. Don't feel bad if you wipe, and definitely don't listen to strangers who think you should feel bad about playing a game. They could tank next time if they're so great.

Thank you for all the responses! :-) I try not to take anything personally in df because I am generally new to most things and perhaps the individual is having a bad day.

I won't let it stop me from tanking, but I am a bit less worried about end game.

Thanks again all and have a lovely evening!

Hi Viola!

First, I'm sorry that happened. A little bit of communication can go a long way, but it's also very easy to forego that in favor of just pulling the next mob (especially with how many buttons we have to push, it can be hard to type at the same time). I will agree about skipping the mobs - let sleeping dragons lie, because the experience gain from killing them is a pittance compared to the EXP bonus from finishing the dungeon run. There's only three of them, so they don't really offer that much EXP. Still, if you're pulling small, they don't take all that much more effort to kill. So if a DPS or healer asks, I'll pull them and dance around their AoE.

Regarding pacing, please take your own pace! If you're anxious about it, let your group know that you're still gearing, and are trying to make sure you can tank at a rate that makes you comfortable. People who do big pulls should only be doing so if they are appropriately geared even though a lot of tanks seem to forget how much Vit and Parry matter on big trash pulls. Otherwise, pull what you know you can hold, and what you know you can survive (the two biggest, most important parts of tanking).

There is a tanking "meta" in the endgame that emphasizes tanking DPS over survivability, but unless you're going to do Savage raiding, you don't (really) need to worry about your damage output too much (so long as you can hold threat). People will say that killing enemies faster helps you take less damage, and they're right, but if you can survive and hold threat, you're doing it right.

Above all is the importance of communication. People are generally a lot friendlier in FFXIV than a lot of games I've played. There are three things that should be clarified: whether or not it's a full clear, whether or not you want to do certain/all mechanics, and whether or not you'll be doing big pulls. Take a minute or two at the beginning of the run to talk and say "I prefer to skip mobs when possible, do the mechanics, and pull smaller than most - does this work with everyone?" It'll start healthier discussion about it well in advance, and that way people will know what to expect when they get there.

Happy tanking!

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

Regarding pacing, please take your own pace! If you're anxious about it, let your group know that you're still gearing, and are trying to make sure you can tank at a rate that makes you comfortable. People who do big pulls should only be doing so if they are appropriately geared even though a lot of tanks seem to forget how much Vit and Parry matter on big trash pulls. Otherwise, pull what you know you can hold, and what you know you can survive (the two biggest, most important parts of tanking).

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If you can actually work with your CDs, you can do Big Pulls in expert Roulette without any problems. I did this with ilvl 145 and can do it currently with ilvl 163 more easy. Only problem with ilvl 145 was enmity but not survival.

Sounds more like the healer was dpsing more than healing so healer error.

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Originally Posted by Cheraa

If you can actually work with your CDs, you can do Big Pulls in expert Roulette without any problems. I did this with ilvl 145 and can do it currently with ilvl 163 more easy. Only problem with ilvl 145 was enmity but not survival.

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I have my healer sitting next to me most of the time. Last time I did that at low iLvl (pulled big while cycling my cooldowns), she cursed my very existence. And she easily agreed that Parry and Vit made big pulls a LOT easier to handle (though I think a bigger part of that is also the Def and M.Def found on my upgraded left side).

Point being, though, you need to feel it out, and see what your healers are comfortable healing you through, and what you're able to keep enmity on (196 PLD and even following all the guides I STILL have trouble holding some pulls against BLM or SMN). Bigger pulls require more work from you and your healer - and generally, I'll only do them if I have someone in the group who can put out good AoE DPS (two monks? Small pulls. BLM-SMN? I'm pulling everything).

In absolute end game there are some people that want a bum rush. I main war and thoroughly enjoy it despite initial apprehension. In leveling dungeons though, even if an enemy is a slow burn, kill everything. I don't DPS, but I hear that a half hour wait time is not uncommon for them, so I always pull every add (not at once) to help them. Also, the baby dragons shrieking when they die will wake up the sleeping dragon, just in case you didn't know. Pull the babies away from sleepers, then run behind them so DPS is standing in what used to be the front. ( grab mob with ranged enmity, let them run to you, run through them, use aoe enmity, boom, nobody is near sleepers). Just some tips!

Do what makes you comfortable. If the group doesn't like it, so what? Worst comes to worst, they kick you, and you get another insta queue.

In pugs I typically don't pull big groups as I don't trust pug healers or DPS. I may ramp up my pull speed as the dungeon progresses but honestly prefer just doing one group at a time. The amount of time you save in leveling dungeons is negligible if any anyway since you're not in endgame gear.

Hi there! I feel your pain here lol, been leveling up my warrior (54 now) and duty finder has been a real pain in the ass :( but I don't want to let it get me down from doing what I like! I hope this experience wont stop you to keep tanking and keep having fun. Ive had some horrible experienced as well but Im still doing it! And well I have just genuinly one tanking rule; you pull? You tank :D been kicked for that once but well whatever, community can suck rats ass but here are also a lot of friendly people around who make it all worth it :D

But yeah Im also kinda scared for the endgame tanking. Really wondering how thats going to work out for me as well!

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Originally Posted by Rose-Odinsdottir

But yeah Im also kinda scared for the endgame tanking. Really wondering how thats going to work out for me as well!

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It does get better once you have all your skills. One suggestion is that you keep Flash on your bars until you're so well geared that you can keep aggro with just Tomahawk & Overpower. Using some MP for a GCD or two can help a lot. Also, unless it's a boss that doesn't hit too hard, be careful with your stance dancing.