A Problem of Archetypes (Class Discussion)

Although this is Final Fantasy 14, and not Final Fantasy 11, to say that comparisons between the two are not constructive would be ridiculous. That being said, please save any such drabble for threads other than this, as I will not respond to such unintelligible complaints. Moving forward…

The talk of class additions in future patches has prompted a considerable amount of speculation. This can be both healthy and destructive. Helpful, as the discussion of such issues can thwart problems further down the road. Destructive, as the lack of information often fuels a sense of mania which can tarnish the actual design. Hopefully, my opinion on this subject will prompt a healthy discussion, pushing it toward the former.

Final Fantasy 11, at least up until I quit (ToAU), had easily discernable archetypes. However, they had not always been so, as I had been told by those who participated in the game before the North American release. From what I gathered, it resembled the following:

Tanks: Warrior, Monk

Damage: Thief, Black Mage (& Warrior, Monk, Red Mage)

Support: White Mage, Red Mage

Each of the six jobs had some obvious overlap within these three roles. In particular: Red Mage, Warrior, and Monk. These three classes were more hybridized archetypes, providing a sense of versatility that wasn’t as prevalent within the others.
Now, let’s take a look at Final Fantasy 14:

Tanks: Gladiator, Pugilist, Marauder

Damage: Lancer, Archer, Thaumaturgy (& Gladiator, Pugilist, Marauder, Conjurer)

Healers: Conjurer (& Thaumaturgy)

What we currently have is not that different from the original FFXI lineup. Actually, it would appear that through spreading out abilities corresponding to archetypal roles, FFXIV provides more wiggle room within the archetypal mold. But here comes the problem….

Quote:

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“A: There is one job that has yet to be announced... What we have announced so far is paladin, white mage, black mage, dragoon, monk, and bard. Last, here is a warrior image!” – From Producer Q&A

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The classes, or jobs, mentioned in during the producer Q&A suggest several outcomes for future job changes. First, the possibility that existing jobs will receive a name change. This is probably the least threatening of the options, with the exception that Conj & Thm would definitely need their offensive spells to be swapped. Conjurer already received Curaga; what many have taken as confirmation that it will be the archetypal “White Mage” from Final Fantasy past. However, they still have the ancient magic which Black Mages had from Final Fantasy 11. Simply swapping the arsenal of these two classes would help clearly define who exactly is who, with the only snafu coming from Lore and quest dialogues.

The second scenario is the one that many are convinced is what will happen, and remain completely baffled as to why it would be chosen as the direction for this game. Yes, the addition of new jobs resembling the current lineup, differentiated by their old school names. The problem with this method is one of monotony within the archetype. Your group wants a blunt damage specialist, but who should they take: Monk or Pugilist? Who cares. They both fight with their hands. There is nothing exciting, at least on the surface, to drive this as a desirable outcome of the future.
And how would this effect the current archetype system? Let’s assume that no changes are made to the current classes. Yes, this is unlikely, but for argument sake…

Tanks: Gladiator, Pugilist, Marauder, Paladin

Damage: Lancer, Archer, Thaumaturgy, Monk, Warrior, Black Mage, Dragoon (& Gladiator, Pugilist, Marauder, Conjurer, Bard)

Healers: Conjurer, Bard, White Mage (& Thaumaturgy)

Another possibility could be that specialized classes drive out this ability to cross over as outlined. This is what I am assuming is going to happen. Ready?

Tanks: Gladiator, Pugilist, Marauder, Paladin

Damage: Lancer, Archer, Thaumaturgy, Monk, Warrior, Black Mage, Dragoon

Healers: Conjurer, White Mage, Bard

My advice: Stick to new classes, and reject the old. Develop classes already within the lore: Musketeer, Seedseers, etc.

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Anyway. Bump. Discuss. Ignore. Have at it.

huh?
/10char

What is this i don't even..

According to my calculations, we're getting jobs with specific roles!

You put bard under healer, but he has no magic and isnt a DoM, he's a support type though.

But I don't see what you're trying to get at?

You seem to have some misconceptions or lack of information concerning the Job System.

Firstly, Classes have more diverse role and as such as suited for soloing purposes.

Secondly, Jobs perform much better in a single role in exchange for less diversity. As such they are much better suited for grouping purposes.

Your misconception is that Classes and Jobs will stand on an equal ground. This will not be the case. Jobs will be able to perform much better in their given role, while Classes can adapt a more versatile playstyle.

That said, in low-man environment where you can not fill every role with its respective Job, or in a solo-situation where you are on your own and as such need to perform in all roles, it will be more beneficial to utilize classes and their diversity.

In a traditional grouping setting, however, specialized roles are needed as the content will be tuned with that in mind. You need a specialized DPS Job to deal sufficient damage, specialized tanking Job to mitigate enough damage, and specialized healer and support Jobs to provide enough support for the group. Diversity becomes less important as every member of the group can fill a specific role, and specialization becomes more important to be able to tackle the content in question.

SE MMO's also have a fourth archetype, Buffer/CC.

In either case, you can not put Classes into a specific archetype but you can do that for Jobs. Classes will still be able to perform in many roles.

Tanks: Gladiator, Pugilist, Marauder
DPS: Gladiator, Pugilist, Marauder, Lancer, Arc, Thm, Cnj
Healing: Thm, Cnj
Buffing/CC: Arc, Thm, Cnj.

What they're saying is that we shouldn't shoehorn traditional FF jobs into the game, which is what it feels like they're doing. They've already got plenty of lore and classes that are similar, just with different names. I'm indifferent about the job system being implemented, but it's undeniable that they are, in fact, forcing it into the game just because FF fans are crying that it's not a traditional FF.

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Originally Posted by Ruisu

What they're saying is that we shouldn't shoehorn traditional FF jobs into the game, which is what it feels like they're doing. They've already got plenty of lore and classes that are similar, just with different names. I'm indifferent about the job system being implemented, but it's undeniable that they are, in fact, forcing it into the game just because FF fans are crying that it's not a traditional FF.

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Either way it needed to be done. The only difference is whether they shoehorn some made-up specs (Buccaneer Marauder, Dark Thaumaturge, etc.) into the game or the traditional jobs.

It is definitely not "just because FF fans wanted it". The whole game structure demanded for it in some shape.

It could easily be done, without the use of the traditional FF terms. Because this is not a traditional FF game. Was FF Tactics traditional? How about FFXII? What about FFVII, that game didn't even have jobs to begin with. We don't need White Mage/Black Mage/Red Mage for the game to be a Final Fantasy.

I do like the Barcher, though. At least they're doing something interesting with that.

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Because this is not a traditional FF game.

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It's still not a crime to use them. Classes aren't being replaced and it makes sense from a game design perspective. It was also very popular demand from the community, so there really is little reason not to have them in the game since this system was coming either way, in some form or another.

We don't need them for the game to be Final Fantasy but it doesn't really hurt to have them there either. The opposite in fact.

Maybe I did miss some information in regards to what differentiates Class and Job this time around.

If what Betelgeuzah says is correct: Classes are tuned more for solo play, while Jobs are for party play. Correct?

With this in mind, what actually occurs is not just the presence of the fourth archetype, but a dual archetype system.

Something along the lines of:

Solo Archetypes
Tank/Damage
Tank/Damage/Healer
Damage/Healer
Healer/Damage

Group Archetypes
Tank
Damage
Support

But doesn't that create its own set of problems all together?
In order for one to be viable for serious group content, new players & old players would need to unlock and relevel a new class. At that point, isn't it just a roundabout way of doing a character wipe?

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If what Betelgeuzah says is correct: Classes are tuned more for solo play, while Jobs are for party play. Correct?

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Yes.

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In order for one to be viable for serious group content, new players & old players would need to unlock and relevel a new class. At that point, isn't it just a roundabout way of doing a character wipe?

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The levels are shared. Each class has a corresponding job. All you need to do is unlock the job for the class, and do the quests for job specific gear and abilities. If you want to solo/lowman, you play as a class. If you want to engage in group content, you switch to job.

The archetypes don't change, but they can overlap.

It feels silly needing to alienate the community in that fashion, the population is small enough as is. I tend to do solo, small group, and full party play. Jobs just seem like they'll tell me that I could only do one thing or another, and are just going make the game convoluted. Allowing classes to evolve into jobs? Fine. However, the archetypes of Final Fantasy jobs will just make things that already work in FFXIV seem really off. The whole point of FFXIV was to allow customization in your character and play style. Why bog that down with a traditional job system.

in before people say that FFXI had subjobs and FFT allowed you to use abilities from other jobs. It's nowhere near as flexible as FFXIV has been.

Again, I am indifferent about Jobs at the moment, as I do not know enough about them. Maybe Yoshida can sway my opinion, maybe not. This is pure speculation on my end. I'm just stating problems that may arise.