Alexander and tempering

Okay so I decided to get Alex NM done today and I learned several things

• The obvious: Axes is a primal inhabiting a glorified mammot., The Illuminati/Blue hand is using is and they are intent on using it to hoard all the knowledge (I;m sure they and Sylvestre would either get along swimmingly or become bitter rivals)
• The reason: Alexander is not an actual deity but seems to be an amalgamation of the Illuminati's ideas in the form of the fortress as shown it the Enigma Codex

Which leads me to ask, Is Alex a representation of the concept of Utopia, as the Illuminati and Mide see it, the amagalgination of the illumnati's hopes and dreams, The Codex Deified, Or is it a primal of a different being altogether?

Hard to know really :/

Alexander's the first primal that doesn not act like a living being ( for now also, if we dont count the sword of Odin )
There is not enought lore about Alexander so far I think.

But beacuse Cid and that Aura came with us, I vague think that Alexander cannot temper. Like a machine, if no one operates him is not a danger ( I could be wrong, maybe it will become alive eventually lol )

Well, its stated that Alexander at this point is incomplete, perhaps when/if it does get completed it will be sentient, capable of tempering and probably mildly ticked off

At the moment, this is really the only mystery that Alexander has to offer... which is probably why a lot of people are disappointed with him. The Goblins are the primary threat (at the moment), and we know what their goals are. So, there's not enough mystery and intrigue to keep us interested at this point, and the end cutscene of A4 did nothing to warrant a renewed interest in the story like T5 did with Bahamut (most people could not wait to get into the Second Coil after seeing that).

That being said, it is an interesting question. Personally, I'm assuming that the codex is simply an object, and Alexander is the Eikon. Further, I'm also assuming that Alexander is the means to an end for Goblins. He's what their hopes and dreams are riding on (quite literally); however, I don't think they truly know what they have gotten themselves into.

So far, Alexander has mimic'd Bahamut in his implementation. First stage is dormancy. This was the same for Bahamut. He did not speak to us and all of the threats presented to us in the First Coil were of Allagan design. Second Coil showed us a bit of Bahamut's intent. The menacing feeling of the unknown and suspense was replaced with a raising of the stakes and a concentrated will. Bahamut himself became involved. Final Coil was the show down. Basic story structure 101: Introduction -> Rising action -> Conclusion. I think we can look forward to the same design for Alexander. The first stage of Alexander (suspense/tension and mystery) were utterly lack luster by comparison to Bahamut's version, but I'm hoping that the second stage makes up for it with a deeper sense of threat from Alexander himself. As he becomes more complete and aware of what's happening, he stands to pose a much more troubling threat to the immediate infrastructure than Bahamut did.

I forgot to this this in the OP (site you know, the title) But I have another question, Do you think the Illuminati are being tempered?

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

I forgot to this this in the OP (site you know, the title) But I have another question, Do you think the Illuminati are being tempered?

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Hard to say.

I think they're just that crazy. If they were really tempered, they'd try to force other Goblins to add to their numbers.

Tempering appears to be an active thing. Its not something that just happens from being close to a primal. If that was the case, the Company of Heroes never would have had a chance to kill one, let alone two, primals.

Further, I suspect tempering is something that requires the Primal to use Aether so generally I think Primals only do it when necessary or when they intentionally want to. I point to Garuda's attempt to temper the WoL as well as Ifrit. It was an active thing.

For this reason I wouldn't be surprised if the Goblins aren't tempered. Either Alexander isn't aware enough to be tempering at this point or it feels no need to temper the Goblins who summoned it.

The other alternative is the actual Primal may be the central component of the Fortress. I wouldn't be surprised in the least to discover that the actual primal is the heart of the structure rather than the structure itself in the same way Odin uses a host.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

The other alternative is the actual Primal may be the central component of the Fortress. I wouldn't be surprised in the least to discover that the actual primal is the heart of the structure rather than the structure itself in the same way Odin uses a host.

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You mean the Primal is the Gordian Knot, the thing where Mide, Biggs and Wedge were in close proximity to? (and the thing that further entrenches my belief that the recurring Alexander is based on Alexander the Great)

Like others said, "hard to tell". I'm just going on the belief that Alexander isn't an actual being like the others or because its not finished it has no sense of self.

Theory-craft: If the summons like Bahamut, Shiva, Ramuh, King Moglemog etc are manifested on a perception or mental image. Then they will be manifested based on that image despite the real life being they were based on.. In theory you should be able to summon an object instead of a whole being. If the Illuminadi figured that out then they could have used existing material as a base/host and summoned whole components. They may not be able to summon the whole thing at once but over time they should be able to create the segments, use less crystals etc, and sustain it on their belief in a goblin utopia. Alexander may well be a summoning of sorts but as it currently is, its not complete or whole. Other than its effect on the Aether there's nothing more to it now other than a really big robot with a possible separate power supply.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Tempering appears to be an active thing. Its not something that just happens from being close to a primal. If that was the case, the Company of Heroes never would have had a chance to kill one, let alone two, primals.

Further, I suspect tempering is something that requires the Primal to use Aether so generally I think Primals only do it when necessary or when they intentionally want to. I point to Garuda's attempt to temper the WoL as well as Ifrit. It was an active thing.

For this reason I wouldn't be surprised if the Goblins aren't tempered. Either Alexander isn't aware enough to be tempering at this point or it feels no need to temper the Goblins who summoned it.

The other alternative is the actual Primal may be the central component of the Fortress. I wouldn't be surprised in the least to discover that the actual primal is the heart of the structure rather than the structure itself in the same way Odin uses a host.

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There is no real need to temper for primals too.

Ifrit does it because he wants more power (read here, more prayers). Garuda because she is a friggin' psycho wanting her army of slaves.

Titan doesn't care. He just wants to protect his children. Ramuh and Moggle mog XII are the same. I don't think either of them has even tempered their followers, at least in the game's period (maybe before the MSQ took place, but we have hardly a word on these periods)

Shiva hasn't tempered anyone for obvious reasons

Leviathan is unclear. Seems the drowned pirates worship him, but I lack knowledge on whether they were tempered or just decided to worship him after a miraculous escape from death.

Neither Bismarck nor Ravana temper their worshippers, at least as far as we know it (Ravana doesn't need it though, as he is the Queen of the Hive. Bismarck just goes and feeds on floating islands).

Zantetsuken tempers one poor lad at a time though, and Bahamut tempered a dead guy and a primal so far.

as for Alexander, I think he's the same as the others. He just wants to protect his kind, and thus doesn't need to temper them to ensure their loyalty.

I think tempering is more of a last resort thing, either to gain power at all costs (Garuda, Ifrit) or to protect oneself (Bahamut). It also depends greatly on the personality of the primal.



as for the original question, my theory so far is that Alexander is the fuel allowing the sharlayan structure to move. That would also be why he sucks so much aether, as he gives a lot of energy away. You could say the primal inhabited the core of the engine and didn't take a real form like Bahamut did. Destroy the main engine and Alexander is a gonner.

Though it will remain a wild guess as long as we are kept in the dark by SE on this matter. The only word we had on Alexander is "he is awaken". meh.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

Leviathan is unclear. Seems the drowned pirates worship him, but I lack knowledge on whether they were tempered or just decided to worship him after a miraculous escape from death.

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Leviathan's tempering seems more like a punishment than a method of creating slaves and securing prayers. Sastasha HM made it seem as though Levi tempered those pirates because they failed him, turning them into the tortured and grotesque "drowned men." Also, it's noteworthy that he only seems to temper men (as in mankind, not the gender). I don't think we've ever seen an example of a beast tribe member being tempered, so it seems like something he exclusively reserves for those who have failed him or he wants to punish.

For the record, tempering is a conscious thing that primals apparently have to exert effort to do beyond those in the immediate vicinity of their summoning.

Ifrit is the only one shown to try and temper a large group of people. That's because it's kind of his MO - he wants conquest, not unlike the Garleans, and his personality "sphere" is domination.

Garuda tries to temper us as a last resort, but fails because of the Echo.

Leviathan tempers (drowns) the pirates from Sastasha for failing him (for the last time).

Bahamut tempered Nael van Darnus and Louisoix / Phoenix in order to break out of Dalamud and resurrect himself, repsectively.

Zantetsuken / Odin tempers the one who slays him if they're stupid enough to take his sword.

Aside from that, primals can and will use tempering as a means to one-shot mortal opposition (e.g. why the Company of Heroes had to use human wave tactics to down them). Still, they can't spam temperings, and some primals don't even want to temper their followers (e.g. Ramuh).

Why don't the goblins appear to be tempered? Well, who knows. I'm still confused as to why the Heavens' Ward were all able to use a Primal Mode apparently without the Echo and not get tempered, and Bismarck doesn't seem to try the move on Cid & co. during the fight against him, so... /shrug. Maybe they are tempered and we just don't know it...!

Leviathan and Ifrit temper captives. The Beasttribe quests deal with Amal'jaa raids to capture people for tempering quite often and the Sahagin one has you going and trying to save Maelstrom who have been captured and dragged off to be tempered as a daily (some are already tempered by then and you have to put them down).

Most drowned arnt mutated. The ones we meet were bathed in Aetheric energy to the point where it mutated them as punishment for their failure but they were already devout Leviathan worshipers to begin with. Its worth noting that there were groups of pirates that didn't need tempering. They already worshiped Leviathan. When they discovered the Sahagin could summon him they just signed up.

The other case, Ramuh, the sylph's asked to be tempered because they were afraid and basically wanted tempering to remove their fear. That's why so many Sylphs are tempered. Sadly the tempering twisted them, turning them cruel and vicious. They are like insane children now. I imagine Ramuh might have regretted tempering them in the long run.

My hopes is that this big robot is not the real alexander. We will fight alexander on the future, thats the most probable result.

Well or this robot is not the real one, or we will just fight like a shadow of his power, like bahamut or maybe alexander has not come to life and have a will of its own.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

For the record, tempering is a conscious thing that primals apparently have to exert effort to do beyond those in the immediate vicinity of their summoning.

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Wait, so we're assuming that vicinity to each Primals...er... "home base?" makes a difference to the process? I mean, it would make sense, since you're all that much closer to their source, so to speak, meaning the wellspring of aether that summoned them is that much more powerful, and it certainly would explain how the Company of heroes managed to survive their encounters (given that their tactics are said to involve luring the primal out from their natural habitat, instead of charging right in like we do), but if that's the case it's strange to think of similar conditions for Alexander.

For one, I'm curious to know if there is something special about that lake. It's stated that the goblins attempted and failed at summoning him in the exact same spot before. So is Alexander specifically tied to that spot in some way? Further, we and the goblins are literally within his body. In terms of proximity, you can't get any closer. So, you'd think that would make the risk of tempering all that much higher. Personally, I don't think he can temper anything at the moment. He doesn't seem to be truly "awake" yet (here's hoping for Alexander 2.0), but this might be an issue in future patches... Especially for Idyllshire.

A major character being Tempered and needing to be put down as a result would serve to make the Primals feel like more of a threat. At the moment they...don't really feel too dangerous in my opinion. Sure, they may kill/Temper a bunch of nameless NPC's but there's no real connection between our character and those nameless NPC's. Yet if someone like Cid were to be Tempered by Alexander...then that would make him feel like a major danger. What we saw in Coil made me feel like there was a lot at stake - so it'd be nice to feel the same way about Alexander.