Okay so this is a discussion thread on the concept of Light and Darkness, and if either force need an equilibrium or not. This is also a thread for speculation on if any characters (Not just the Warrior of Light) are being tempered by the forces of light as much as they are forces of Darkness.
Certain topics of debate would be:
- The ending of the Crystal Tower subplot, in relation to the fall of Allag.
- Elidibius and whether or not he is merely talking propaganda.
- The existence of Light-aspected primals (Thordian, Alexander).
- And whether or not there has to be an equilibrium (tying with the 2nd bullet).
- And whether or not people are "tempered" by the Light
Light, Darkness, Balence, Gravitation
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10-17-2015, 04:49 AMMorningstar1337Light, Darkness, Balence, Gravitation
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10-17-2015, 04:58 AMFenral
As far as votes against light as an absolute good:
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Originally Posted by Unei
This certainly sounds like they're saying that living in a world where everything was good all the time actually caused everything to go downhill. Pretty much every other mention of the Allagans has also framed them as a people whose over-reliance on technology, especially technology geared towards "the good of the people," resulted in their ruin... Except the very tail end of the Crystal Tower story, which chose simply to ignore the established precedents and say we should live like the Allagans used to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doga
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10-17-2015, 05:00 AMCilia
OK, here we go.
On The Crystal Tower, Light, and Darkness
-It could be said that an excess of Light led to the Allagan Empire's fall. Since the Allagans had want of nothing, they were totally bathed in the light - which led to their complacency and belief they were above everything else. With nothing to strive towards, they had little spirit because they never suffered through anything. This led to further reach - they conquered most all of Hydaelyn - but a stagnant culture that eventually brought about their downfall. If a game teaches you anything, it's that characters (and even players) can and will suffer though anything thrown at them to reach their goal, but the Allagans no longer had any goals to reach for. It's the driving theme of Answers - our suffering becomes our strength.
The only thing that could happen to such a "perfect" society is stagnation and collapse, which is exactly what happened. I don't personally believe anyone ever said we should live like the Allagans, but their tech would make things a lot easier for everyone... but if we had it, we might fall for the same mistakes unless we learn from their example. If that's even possible, considering how "perfect" their society was.
That said, even Xande alludes to the Cloud of Darkness, so Eorzea / Hydaelyn probably don't follow III's cycle of a Flood of Light and then a Flood of Darkness. Probably. III's World of Darkness is also a sort of parallel dimension, while here it's in the Void - implied to be a sort of terminus for the Final Fantasy multiverse. The Cloud of Darkness we fight could very well be the same one from III and Dissidia...
On Elidibus and the Balance
-Hard to say whether or not he's just talking out his ass. As we can learn from Allag's example, too much Light can be a bad thing (if that's what happened). Still, all of Elidibus' comments on the balance have been excessively enigmatic - the only thing he's said on the subject can be summed up with "If you knew what we knew, we'd be best buddies" and "The balance is shifting, which is bad for our goals." The former is just him trolling you, the latter is him complaining that their goals are getting harder to accomplish thanks to you.
On its own, the latter has little significance. Combined with Lahabrea's post-Ultima Weapon monologue, though, it does indeed imply that a balance must be maintained (if not tipped towards Darkness, for whatever reason). Still, we have yet to see adverse effects thanks to an aetherial imbalance between light and darkness, so it comes back to it being hard to tell whether or not Elidibus is talking out his ass.
On Light-elemental Primals and Tempering
-This gets into the very heart of aetheric science, I think. Hydaelyn as an entity has the elemental alignment of "Light," but what is Light in aetheric terms? Well... if Zodiark requires a "chaotic confluence of aether" to be reborn, then it can be presumed that Darkness is "all elements," while Light is "no elements." By that token, well... Ifrit implies that your soul belongs to Hydaelyn in the same way tempered souls belong to him, as after his unsuccessful tempering effort he notes that mortal souls can only harbor one blessing (for comparison's sake, let's call Ifrit's tempering the "Blessing of Fire"). Since you already have one Blessing, you can't get another... sort of? Makes a continuity snarl with Midgardsormr sealing the Blessing but not the Echo...
Anyway, perhaps it's a trait that Light is simply a sort of "filler" element that doesn't affect the personality of the Blessed. It's implied you still have your free will despite Hydaelyn "tempering" you, and it would explain how the Knights of the Round were able to retain their free will even in Primal Mode apparently without the Echo. The Primals are intentionally perverted false gods, though, so perhaps it's simply a facet of their summoning ritual the Ascians devised to further aetheric consumption? A way to divert followers from Hydaelyn's truly divine grace?
Too many questions, not enough answers.
I think that covers most every question asked. Nothing to respond with but more questions, but that's what keeps me playing. Sorry if I missed anything; kinda tired. -
10-18-2015, 12:17 AMFenral
I'd like to write something a bit less dry on the subject (or even just finish something I've already started), but here's what I have gleaned from the text itself on the fall of Allag:
Ramnbroes more or less does, in the final NOAH report, which is actually extremely out-of-character if you look at the description for the Onion Knight minion. Also, the whole "once more" implies restoring it to a prior state, but the two choices we have are Azys Lla lite and the aforementioned "stripped its people of the will to improve" Hope Hope Beacon MAX Extreme Supernova. Neither is a good option.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
Further supporting this is the group from which "the Ancients' wish" was made. The Allagans who survived the Calamity were, of course, Allagans of the period in which that Calamity occurred; in other words, the very same Allagans who were too drunk on the light of the tower to do things for themselves, and had only heard of the "golden age" from their parents, who had likely only heard of it from theirs. At some point, this starts sounding eerily similar to the way primals are born...
As for the one facilitating the entrusting of their wish to the future, it was the last survivor of the imperial line, our dear Salina. Yes, that imperial line, the one that was no longer able to hold the empire together and keep its people striving towards new goals. The "weakened blood" that led chief scientists like Amon, Unei, and Doga to believe zombie!Xande would be more preferable as a ruler. As the last of that imperial line, she would no doubt hold the same completely idealistic view of the tower and the "golden age" without knowing anything of them firsthand, so to her, seeing that restored in the future would be the ideal way for Allag to atone for their mistakes. Even if nothing actually came of it, an effort to make such a thing possible would give her people hope, which may well have been her primary objective.
Problem being that it took 5000 years for the Crystal Tower to reappear, and the final cost was payed not by Salina, but by two clones who were given free will only to become extra lives for their originals to sacrifice after theirs were spent, and the last descendant of that aide's bloodline, who may as well have been chosen at random to become the new "living key" bound to the tower by every will but his own. So to give their hope to the future, she sacrifices numerous lives that aren't her own, in true Allagan fashion. Of course they are necessary, because they always are, or so the Allagans continued to tell themselves until they lay in ruin.
Curiously, though, what was translated as "Once more" in the English script was, in Japanese, "Kondo koso," or "next time for sure," which in light of the above could mean finding a new use that is radically different than either prior use (and thus without the drawbacks), but as Localization works using insider knowledge and went with "once more" anyway, not to mention the NOAH report outright stating that their purpose is to reopen it as a power plant and public facility like it was during Allag's golden age, this is highly unlikely. And possibly a terrible idea, if we can't cheat our way back into the tower (coughEurekacough) and give a certain catboy historian a chance to properly sort through his feelings versus the voices in his head instead of acting on impulse.
<editorial comment>And then there's the whole "Garlemald has Azys Lla and the Warring Triad now" thing that kind of makes sacrificing anything for the tower seem like a vain and thoroughly under-analyzed waste of life. At this rate, the world will be destroyed by misused Allagan tech long before anyone reopens the tower by "proper" means.</editorial comment>
I see this theory a lot, but that's a no. The Cloud of Darkness in FFIII was killed by the combined powers of the Warriors of Light and the Warriors of Darkness (Light/Dark fusion magic FTW), with the implications that another, new entity, could be born if either light or darkness got out of hand. The one in XIV was "defeated" offscreen by Allagan Force Lightning. And unless I really misread the secret reports in Duodecim, the one in Dissidia is just a really well-made manikin created from the idea of the Cloud of Darkness and made, like all Dissidia's roster, to believe it is the real thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
I'll get around to the rest later maybe, this post is mostly a long-winded bump for people tracking it via thread subscriptions. -
10-18-2015, 12:45 PMMorningstar1337In the interest of bumping this thread and asking for otherper people's thoughts on these topics, I must point out that the last time the people used "eikons" to power the Tower, it ended in the Calamity and with it the 7th Umbral Era, the story even points this out after the Garlean Empire rears Regula's ugly mug on Azys Lla.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenral
Or were you referring to the Triad's fetters when you mentioned misused Allagin tech? -
10-18-2015, 01:25 PMFenral
Well, the idea behind sealing the key inside the tower was that it was too powerful/dangerous if not understood and used safely, so it needed to be kept out of untrained hands until it could be put to "proper" use.
Azys Lla, as a contemporary to Dalamud, was created during the very specific period of history loaded into the aforementioned key's brain, and that's without assuming Salina passed on more than we were told at the time. Not only does it have three perfectly preserved 100% Eikon batteries, but also enough in the way of operational tech that the "prize" to be awarded to those who crack the Tower's doors in the future is already obsolete. As an added bonus, the power contained in the Singularity Reactor is enough that any disaster that sealing the tower might have prevented can still occur even with the tower out of play.
What I'm trying to say is, the one person who almost certainly knows how to properly operate and contain Azys Lla removed himself from play in order to preserve a piece of tech that is far less dangerous and far less valuable overall. All he really accomplished in fulfilling his "purpose" was ensuring that he most emphatically cannot actually be of any use to anyone. Go team? -
10-18-2015, 02:34 PMFrederick22Fenral seriously, your obession with that catboy is harmfull and not healthy. Just let it go man xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Fenral
Dont keep including him on every comment you do ^^ -
10-19-2015, 01:45 AMEchofalls
Fenral is just upset over what some of us here percieve to be a bad ending to a somewhat confusing and convoluted questline.
Personally, I hold onto the idea that it is not yet finished and may return in future content (and actually *stay* around this time, Allagan brainwashing be damned!) -
10-19-2015, 02:30 AMFenralSure thing. Once people stop talking about the Allagans and their legacy, the Students of Baldesion, the Archons of Sharlayan, the hidden meaning in related tattoos, or whether or not there's some nefarious connection between the Allagans and Miqo'te. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederick22
That work for you?
Addendum: any derailing that happens, happens because people insist on asking me questions I've already answered, like "why haven't you dropped that yet?" or "why does he even apply here?" to which I am obligated to answer. Trying to refute me is also a mistake, because I'm stubborn and I've taken courses in debate. When something actually happens that allows my feelings on the subject to change, they'll change on their own. Left in stasis, though, I feel obligated to at least remember him as I deem appropriate (since Cid apparently doesn't).
Also, not expecting people to pick things apart is just insulting. I mean, really. This is the series that spawned the "Squall died on Disc 1" debate that persists to this day. There's a legacy to be upheld. -
10-19-2015, 02:32 AMCilia
There's lots of things people are upset about in the game. The difference is that Waffles has been on about it for about, what, a year or so now...? And picked it apart far more thoroughly than SE ever intended us to?
I mean, I admit that it wasn't a wholly satisfactory ending (the storytelling in most all 2.5.x content was a bit... off for my taste), but it happened. I'd like to revisit it someday too, but I'm also fine with letting it lay as is and not derailing every topic that includes the Allagans into a long-winded examination and rant on how and why the resolution of the Crystal Tower storyline was poorly written and executed.
I don't like how the Ul'dahn Revolution arc from 2.x was resolved, but I don't launch into page-long diatribes on why it was awful. (Yes, I will talk at length about Dork Knights, but that's because it's very introspective and psychological. Hypocrite, double standard, blah blah blah. We're all hypocrites with double standards.)
While it is certainly possible to revisit the Crystal Tower and get a good ending, I won't bet on it happening. To paraphrase Peter LaFleur:
"I found that if you [want something], then you might not [get it]. But if you don't [want anything], then you are never disappointed." -
10-19-2015, 03:49 AMMorningstar1337
And now I;d like to rerail this topic, this is supposed to be a discussion on whether Light is bad or not, not exclusively the ending at the CT subplot, and I;d appreciate discussion on the other aspects of this topic (Elidibus, Thoridan, Hydalyn etc.)
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10-19-2015, 03:59 AMFenral
Eldibus is a problem. He's an Ascian, but out of all of them, he's never attacked us except in self-defense. That, and he says he's not our enemy while also openly being an emissary of the dark. My guess is that he's the last holdover from whatever system was in place before the current cycle of Astral/Umbral eras, as the universe, if not the world, is strongly implied to have existed before then.
If we could just get him out of those robes (not like that, though his entirely-too-young voice has me curious) and have a proper talk without waving our opposing agendas around, I fell like we could make some serious headway towards a mutually beneficial arrangement. That'll never happen of course, and if the WoD turns out to be a way for him to get around not attacking us directly, well, things will probably get worse from here out. -
10-19-2015, 10:58 PMKallera
It could be that elidibus' mention of a need to restore balance is more his own opinion, and not something that is shared by either hydelyn or zodiark, as at least members from both sides (Hydelyn herself, and Lahabrea with the Ultima Weapon) has stated to vie for total dominance as the only method of peace.
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10-20-2015, 02:43 AMKuwagamiGonna feature some major Golden Sun spoilers, so that will be in the magic box belowQuote:
Originally Posted by Fenral
The Wise One : he talks big about protecting the world. And as he is the only one you can trust as he was the first one to really talk to the group about what is going on, Isaac and Garret decided to follow his orders and go stop the big baddies's plans to change the world. Boom, go save the world buds!
Meanwhile, Menardi and Saturos are the perfect villains. They do bad stuff (or at least, you believe they do, and the Wise One comforted this idea), and you must stop them at all cost. You go as far as to kill them, because they just desperately wanted to achieve their dream...
Which was in fact, to save the world. Boom, surprise ! YOU were the bad guy, letting the world destroy itself, just because some random floating stone told you so. But you learned, and a somewhat neutral force (Alex), was teaching you during all that time through enigmatic shit that you'd better go and help the goal of the poor lads you just slain, even though you may do it in a more peaceful way.
Meanwhile, an other party of your former friends appear and follow the path of the people you just slain, and oppose your group. Though you end up joining them because you were tricked by the floating rock and fuck it, you'll save the world for real.
Eventually, as you are close to save the world, the big floating stone comes back and is pissed of, because he doesn't want you to save the world. He wants you to continue living in a decaying world JUST BECAUSE SHUT YOUR TRAP KIDS YOU KNOW NOTHING! So he attacks you, but using a fucking twisted mental trick using your parents. Kill your parents to save the world, or die without living up to your goals, that's how you do it.
mofo rock is defeated, you saved the world. Really ? It appears the floating rock knew some other things, and Alex too. You saving the world by restoring balance just gave the bastard god-like power. Aaaaand, you're screwed again.
End of the spoilers as I haven't done GS3 yet, so I can't comment on the end of the scenario.
Nevertheless, doesn't it sound similar ?
Big floating crystal (Hydaelyn), telling you to fight baddies (booh bad ascians), who just appeared to to bad things (they're not exactly willing to deal with consequences. They do stuff and whatever happens after isn't their problem as long as they progress towards their goal). So you go and fight, and go as far as killing 2 of them. Meanwhile, an other force preaching about balance appears (Elidibus), and uses convoluted sentences to try to tell you something about the bigger plan. Or he might just be trolling you. Who knows ?
And now, an other group with (most likely) the same goal than the ascians just made its appearance.
Will we join our power with the WoD ? Will we go and fight Hydaelyn herself at some point, because her way isn't saving the world but slowly killing it in fear the balance might be abused ? Will Elidibus use that occasion to screw us over and gain super powers (blah blah blah, whatever, we'll kill you in the end buddy) ?
Man, I thought game scenarios were under copyright....
oh right, I had forgotten that part. Been so many years X_XQuote:
Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh
Though it doesn't change (yet) the fact that FFxiv's scenario has a lot in common with the GS series. Maybe that's a common thing that I somehow missed in most J-RPGs, but there are really too many similarities to just call it "lucky pick" imo -
10-20-2015, 03:47 AMMilesSaintboroguh
You also left out something in regards to Golden Sun's ending.
The Wise One asked Isaac to put the Mars Star back where it was, and then had him take it out again. This gave Isaac some of the Golden Sun's power way before the main story kicks off, which also meant Alex could not achieve full power. The Wise One tricking the heroes wasn't so much of a trick, but a test to see if the kids really do believe what they were fighting in and if they would accept the responsibilities that would come with it. That is why he turned the heroes' parents into a three headed dragon and it was nearly slain by its own kids. Isaac knew what had to be done, even if it meant nearly killing his parents to save the world. -
11-12-2015, 09:07 AMMykaelusFFXI tie-in
Regarding Light and Darkness, FFXIV shares a lot with FFXI, so I would not be surprised if this is treated similarly.
HUGE FFXI SPOILERS BELOW...
.... SERIOUSLY, DON'T READ IT IF YOU EVER WANT TO PLAY FFXI
.... IT'S COMING OUT ON MOBILE SOON, DID YOU KNOW?
...
In XI, the story goes that an ancient race grew bold enough to try and build a door to the heavens. The Twilight God Promathia struck them down, leaving ruin in his wake. The Goddess Altana saw this destruction and wept five tears, which became the five races of Vana'diel. In response, Promathia created the beastmen races to war with Altana's children, so they would never thing to build towards heaven again.
HOWEVER, you discover through playing FFXI that this is all a misinterpretation. Promathia was not the god of evil, but the god of nothingness. It was in his nature to pursue the entropy of the universe, including destroying himself. The goddess Altana, the embodiment of creation, couldn't bear to see ANYTHING in existence to be destroyed, and rather than allow Promathia to fade away, against his will she trapped bits of his essence in living vessels... thus creating the five races.
... SPOILERS END ...
So for FFXIV, I'm thinking Hydaelyn as the embodiment of Light is being set up similarly to FFXI in opposition to Zodiark. Unlike FFXI's interpretation though where Light was basically infinite, I think the act of creation has a cost to Hydaelyn. Consider that whenever we see her crystal, there is dust and crystal bits orbiting it. Almost as if parts have been broken off to be used. Compare that to the crystal in the opening movie of FFXI, which is one single piece. I suppose you could say it was just an aesthetic choice, but crystals being broken pops up a lot in FFXIV. Crafting takes SHARDS, rather than just crystals in FFXI. Aetherytes are always in multiple pieces. Even in the new Lords of Verminion, the goal is to break the crystals.
It's almost as if FFXIV equates Light with individuality. Consider that Lahabrea and Igeyorhm claim to show us "the true power of the Echo" before fusing together into one being. Does that mean they have the Echo? And then the talk of Rejoinings. If Light is individuality, Dark would be unity.
What is a Primal but the union of people's faith and aether?
What if the Echo is actually the gift of Zodiark? People think it is the gift of Hydaelyn because Hydaelyn gives the Blessing of Light to people with the Echo. But what if Hydaelyn is just trying to co-opt or temper those with Zodiark's blessing?
That's not to say the Dark is actually the "good guy," just that it is an equal and opposite force... trying to unify everyone, just as darkness obscures boundaries. Whereas the Light reveals and defines boundaries. -
11-12-2015, 01:35 PMFenralCertainly well-reasoned, but for the sake of argument, let me posit the reverse. Advance warning that this will sound a lot like heresy against every RPG plot ever:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mykaelus
The Light in FFXIV so far seems to be selflessness, putting others before yourself, a "greater good" that rejects individuality for the benefit of the faceless many. Treating a friend to lunch is the mild form. Altruistic suicide is the extreme. Hydaelin, of course, is the master of this, constantly giving of herself in spite of her slightly more important purpose that seems to be giving the world itself form. If she gives up all of herself, then she will die and our world with her, and that will be that.
Assuming the above is light, "Dark" would be selfishness, individuality, and putting the good of the self before the many. Taking from others in order to build up and sustain one's identity as an individual. Put mildly, you have to eat to live, and there's no such thing as a free lunch. Taken to the extreme, you have Nidhogg, who asserts his "will" over most of the Dravanian Horde. Zodiark's followers seek the Rejoining, taking of the world and Hydaelin to the benefit of Zodiark. It's still a sort of unity, but one born from the assertion of one individual over many.
Logically speaking, neither of these can exist without the other. An entirely selfless world lacks the basic distinction that makes "giving" possible, while a fully-asserted individual has acquired everything and can thus no longer "take." Either end result is essentially the same: everything returns to nothingness. Perfect equilibrium in this case is also probably a terrible idea, but likely also impossible.
My total guess is that the Ascians, or Lahabrea's camp at least, are acting in a way that seeks to provoke Hydaelin's self-sacrifice, as this allows them to claim more of [fill in the blank] for Zodiark, strengthening their master. We don't have enough info to know what fills in the blank yet.
(If this isn't what's actually going on, I find in myself the urge to use this for a story later... http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/i...ilies/cool.png) -
11-12-2015, 01:41 PMMorningstar1337So basiclay Hydalyn and Zodiark are the Force?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenral
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11-12-2015, 01:42 PMFenralOnly if I get to be Darth Revan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morningstar1337
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11-12-2015, 02:26 PMFrederick22
Well the funny this is that the Echo acts like the force, 2 sides of the same thing.
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11-12-2015, 06:18 PMKaiser-Ace
I've always viewed Aether as "The Force" because it is manipulated for benevolent, Malevolent, and even purely mundain tasks and can be used for evil just as, if not more easily, than for good.
Hydaelyn representing "The Light Side" and Zodiark representing "The Dark Side" with The warriors of Light being Hydaelyn's Jedi and The Ascians being Zodiark's Sith.
True Ballence can only exist when both are deadocked and neither are gaining ground. The Warriors of Light and Ascians have been seemingly fighting for Eons now with each gunning for the edge. Only now things are getting serious, Ascians are DIEING forcing the Dark to call for reinforents.
I think it'll eventually show Elidibus is well aware of his role and is trying to inform us of ours. We seek to END the conflict but ballence might only be possible so long as our battle's continue. What happens if either side gains a decisive victory? My guess, nothing good. -
11-13-2015, 02:28 AMKallera
We need a solid example of the light getting out of hand. And I think Derplander may be the one with it, as no one other than Urianger is going to take Elidibus at mask value.
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11-13-2015, 03:37 AMmyahele
The whole "in the beginning there was darkness ... then the light crystal came to be and brought forth life and light to the realm" thing seems to be the basic trope of the many, especially older FF games. Actually, many real life myths, too.
I wonder if that's how the world was like when Zodiark ruled the realm? Before Hydaelyn "banished" him with her light. -
11-13-2015, 04:23 AMKaiser-AceThat would explain Nebraulus' statement about "returning everything to oblivion". Perhaps Zodiark being the "God of the Void" theroy isn't as far fetched as some think.Quote:
Originally Posted by myahele