Something needs to be done about spawn camping in FL. It's become increasingly common to do and it'll get to the point where the team in 3rd place will start spawn camping the team in 2nd (sometimes the team in 1st place, but more often the team in 2nd).
Because of how the invuln works, climbing up the obstetrical in some spawns will make you vulnerable again. I know North Spawn is one of the harder ones to defend against them. You can't climb onto the spikes to hit them without becoming vulnerable and they can easily LoS you with all the spikes.
This really needs to be addressed and fixed. It makes no sense that 1/3 of one's GC can get stuck on the base simply because they cannot fight off a handful of Ninjas and a healer. And the other Alliances shouldn't have to leave the battle field to go clean up the party that is there.
I'm surprised it's not considered cheating considering it prevents people from participating in the match.
And since people are gonna say "get gud", I agree the people in 3rd place should get gud instead of spawn camping like a bunch of dirty dogs.
Spawn Campers
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10-10-2015, 01:15 PMSelliSpawn Campers
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10-10-2015, 01:35 PMAriabeth
Spawn camping is indeed an issue that needs to be adressed.
Just because 3rd place team is losing, doesn't mean 2nd place team is losing.
Often enough 2 leading teams are tied, and having spawn campers in the game makes it not come down to skill and strategy, but instead whoever 3rd place team hates most, or is closest by to. Something that can be completely fixed? no.. but it can be made more difficult on the spawncampers.
Means to prevent this is the invulnurability buff. But this stops only being attacked IN spawn by casters/rangers.
What we need is either have the debuff graduatelly run out when stepping out of spawn, or increase the radius to beyond the dropdown at spawn.
This will not fix it 100%, spawn camping can still be done if a whole GC team is out there waiting, but at least increasing the radius widens the range of where people can run out of the safe area. Remember that there is a long run of nothingness between the spawn area, and where the closest node can be. -
10-10-2015, 04:01 PMFebrus
Maybe they should put Bertha Cannons within the spawn zones so that fresh spawns can insta-kill any asshole who gets too close... That would definitely make people think twice about spawn camping.
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10-10-2015, 04:11 PMVandrilYou're right, that makes no sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Selli
Why can't 1/3 of your GC fight off a handful of Ninjas and a healer? -
10-10-2015, 04:48 PMSelliThe healer stands far enough back that they can't be hit from the base by ranged, but can still heal their Ninjas. The Ninjas harass anyone who moves close enough to the edge to become vulnerable. North spawn is especially bad because casters can't get enough LoS on them to cast spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandril
Jumping down as a group causes them to rush 1-2 people, which result in deaths. They also usually leave one or more Ninjas in Hide so after everyone "cleans up" the party, they still have 2 people left to get anyone else who happens to respawn after everyone moves out.
The people who do this know exactly how to abuse the end of the vulnerability barrier and how to LoS casters and healers healing melee who jump down to attack them.
The people who do this have been doing it for a long time, but I have never seen it become this frequent. I played 10 matches today and all 10 had spawn campers from both the other GCs. It's getting ridiculous and out of hand. -
10-10-2015, 05:12 PMDimitrii
So what is it a party of ninjas or something? 2 ninjas and a whm will not last long spawn camping. There are GCs that sends out a whole party to hide underneath spawns and weaken their own ability to secure nodes by reducing their own numbers? Cause anything less is a waste of time and battle resources since one call out to your team about enemy spawn camping can quickly destroy anything less than a party. Only time I ever see spawn camping is when most of the GC commits to it. I never see duo/trio spawn campers anymore.
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10-10-2015, 06:03 PMSelliThere was a couple of times where I ran into a premade of 7 Ninjas and 1 WHM, but that's not every game and it's pretty easy to tell they're premade when the match is over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimitrii
What I've seen become popular is they wait for parties to engage on the 2nd set of nodes, they then send out a party to camp either 1st or 2nd place. The team in 2nd place usually has more deaths, so there is a supply of people for them to harass. They also usually send out a pair of Ninjas to sit in hide and avoid this first wave of spawn campers (as they'll get driven off sooner or later) and wait for the fighting to continue and pick off people who spawn after that. Generally after killing a couple people they will return back to their GC just to avoid getting killed themselves.
Since they're holding up one of the GCs from having their full force and killing off anyone willing to risk trying to book it, the 2nd place team usually can't hold nodes and end up losing quite a bit of people. The rest of the 3rd place GC can easily come in and take any nodes the 2nd GC might have. 2nd GC sometimes drop into 3rd because of this.
If the 2nd place team doesn't drop into 3rd, the match will continue as normal (for the most part) when the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd places become more prominent (usually when the lead team has 600 points), the team in last place will drop all their nodes and all 24 will spawn camp.
Now, this sounds extreme and kind of excessive, doesn't it? I used to see it maybe every once in a while, since sometimes it doesn't get them out of 3rd. I saw it a couple of times this week, but I didn't think much of it. Until today when it happened in all the matches that I ran, I checked for premades and didn't see any. And, no, I didn't run all of those matches back to back and it wasn't all the same people. I did my roulette in the morning, a couple in the afternoon, and a couple in the evening.
[EDIT] That text limit, tho. >:c -
10-10-2015, 10:25 PMTwiissTwiiss
https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZDlbPNQu9wE
Sounds like those lol -
10-11-2015, 01:05 AMZensho
spawn camping is part of strategy in sieze. stop trying to re design the game mode , and stop being such carebears....
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10-11-2015, 02:28 AMSelliI've played PvP in many MMOs and spawn camping is horribly frowned upon and, in most games, is actually impossible because developers understand how unfair it is, especially in large scale arenas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zensho
http://www.cassandrebolan.com/upload...983653.jpg?688Quote:
stop being such carebears....
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10-11-2015, 03:15 AMNutzIt's only a strategy to lose though. Spawn campers almost exclusively go after 2nd place to ensure the other team finishes the match sooner. It's not a strategy to win, it's essentially just teaming up with the current leader to get the match over with in a hurry and as a side effect prevent the current 2nd place team from actually playing the game as it's meant to be played.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zensho
I vote for cannons (modified to fire instantly and for excessive damage). They'd be totally useless for normal play, but would destroy spawn campers in a hurry (if any were so foolish). With that only hidden ninjas would be able to ambush you as you left the spawn area, though they could do something about that as well if they liked (ie. hide doesn't work within 'x' yalms of a spawn point). -
10-11-2015, 04:40 AMVandrilWow. I have to admit that I wasn't expecting a solid answer, but this is as solid as it gets. I respect that, so I'll take this topic more seriously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Selli
I'm rather torn on this topic. On one hand, spawn camping is no fun for those being camped, and it certainly does feel to them that they're unable to actually participate in the match. On the other hand, going behind enemy lines and cutting off reinforcements is a classic war strategy that is very valid.
Ultimately, though, this should be decided by the Rule of Fun of game design - if it's not fun, don't have it. Or, in this case, if it ruins the fun for many people, don't have it. It is, in fact, no fun for those being camped, as they feel like they're missing out on the match entirely. That's nothing short of frustrating. As such, I agree that something should be done about the spawn camping.
I prefer this solution, as it puts taking out the spawn campers in the hands of the players. Two cannons would be good. The cannons should also have a special flare shot which can un-hide any hidden NIN in a very wide range (basically, a ranged, ground-targeted version of Detect with a ~10s CD from each cannon). This solution would not stop spawn camping entirely, but would give the camped players the proper tools to fully deal with the spawn campers, regardless of their numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nutz
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10-11-2015, 04:45 AMCanadaneThen you simply have people waiting just outside the Bertha range.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
The only real way to counter some hard hitting spawn camping is to have people stop rushing out as soon as they respawn. But nobody wants to stay out of the action. -
10-11-2015, 05:33 AMDimitriiThe further away they have to stand from the spawn in hide the less likely they are gonna be able to intercept mounted players while hidden. They would have to start guessing as to what direction the player will be running to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadane
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10-11-2015, 09:00 AMStormrider
Weird In WoW i remember killing people right on top of the graveyard nonstop. Nothing like a group of twinks to make someones night horrible. I am not a fan of spawn camping. I don't see it as cheating or griefing, deaths equal points changing hands. If they remove the points lost fro dieing this wouldn't happen as much.
One, it is a good way to make sure a premade loses. The points lost from deaths and then points lost from nodes when they have to double back adds up. Two, I recently switched Grand companies but spawn camping was only common when a team made life miserable for a few matches or had been curb stomping everyone. I have been on nights where adder premade was crushing so everyone pushes and camps them like crazy or tries.
Also how do you know they don't want you to lose? I have literally been in matches where we were so mad at the second place team about 20 of us rolled up to the spawn in caves and killed them till the game ended. You would be amazed at how few people wait to group up or come back to help using return.
The best counter is vit healers and two dps. Full vit and 9 lustrate for a sch trumps 4 ninjas. Return is also usable in all frontlines. -
10-11-2015, 11:27 AMFebrusin addition to what Dimitrii said, cannons would also put a stop to relentless chasing. Any team being ganked by both GC's and pushed back to their spawn would have a method to turn the battle and stop needless spawn camping from a combination of two opposing teams.Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadane
Also, any respawning players who hopped out of invincibility only to get pounced on before being able to regroup with their team, would have something of a "safe zone" that they could fall back to. Over eager Dps who chase for that kill would probably not notice they're being kited into cannon range. If they do notice and choose to wait just outside it, no big deal. They'd get into a staring contest with the respawns until the respawning players have enough numbers to brutalize the campers. It would basically force the respawning players to wait for reinforcements while under the safety of cannon fire. -
10-11-2015, 12:03 PMTriksteRLOLQuote:
Originally Posted by TwiissTwiiss
/10char -
10-11-2015, 07:54 PMSelliThank you, I appreciate that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandril
I play healer in FL a lot, so I'd be lying if I said I didn't die at least once a match (as much as I'd love to believe I'm super slick and can heal myself out of anything, in reality I am very squishy and the enemy team does not like my kind). As a healer, once you get numbered they kind of never unmark you and you get zerged or chain stunned/slept a lot. So I do a lot of running from spawn to nodes in a match that isn't playing out in the favor of my team. So it didn't take me long to pick up on what was going on with this new trend.
I remember spawn camping in level 50 FL a couple times (I didn't play FL as actively then as I do now, though), but I have only seen my GC do it once in Seal. I didn't find it particularly fun myself, as I didn't feel like we were really doing anything other than being a scary wall. They didn't leave their base because they couldn't fight us, and we couldn't hit them because they were on base. It was a lot of standing around for very little gain.Quote:
I'm rather torn on this topic. On one hand, spawn camping is no fun for those being camped, and it certainly does feel to them that they're unable to actually participate in the match. On the other hand, going behind enemy lines and cutting off reinforcements is a classic war strategy that is very valid.
I do understand that Ninjas get their kick out of it, because Hide is pretty limited in PvE content and really shines in PvP (similar to how AST's Aspected Benefic Shields were considered really bad for PvE when they were first released, but they were, and still are, amazing in PvP). However, the tactic Ninjas use for spawn camping can be just as easily applied to capturing nodes guarded by 1-8 people. A solo Ninja who knows what they're doing can easily take out 1-2 people guarding a node and a group of them could probably destroy an 8-man party taken by surprise. Which would probably benefit their GC more than getting, like, 15 points from spawn camping.
Thank you.Quote:
Ultimately, though, this should be decided by the Rule of Fun of game design - if it's not fun, don't have it. Or, in this case, if it ruins the fun for many people, don't have it. It is, in fact, no fun for those being camped, as they feel like they're missing out on the match entirely. That's nothing short of frustrating. As such, I agree that something should be done about the spawn camping.
I think the easiest way SE could elevate this issue without having to put too much time into it, would be to extend the invuln buff to last (I'm going to say, roughly) 3-5 seconds after leaving one's base. It should be long enough that one on a mount can nearly make it to the nearest node to their base (this probably wouldn't completely get rid of spawn camping, it would just make it increasingly more difficult to accomplish as the radius needed to be covered would be larger, but having too long of an invuln buff would make it OP, so balance would be very fine here). Since its impossible to get back into your base without dying (or using Return, which requires you to not be in combat), it would be hard to abuse something like this for a "rush" method (I mean, unless everyone is right in front of your spawn). However, that is the easy method.Quote:
I prefer this solution, as it puts taking out the spawn campers in the hands of the players. Two cannons would be good. The cannons should also have a special flare shot which can un-hide any hidden NIN in a very wide range (basically, a ranged, ground-targeted version of Detect with a ~10s CD from each cannon). This solution would not stop spawn camping entirely, but would give the camped players the proper tools to fully deal with the spawn campers, regardless of their numbers.
I think the cannon is an amazing idea. The cannon itself shouldn't do damage (if it did, one person would sit on cannon the whole game and teams would constantly try to push people toward their spawn, which would just create another issue), but it should a 360 degree detect (the shape would probably have to be adjusted to a more oval shape for caves as their spawn is in the middle of a long wall) and mark all enemy players within its radius on the map of their opposing GCs. They would be visible for 180 seconds (including enemies in Hide). The radius on the detect animation should be kept invisible to all players, just to avoid people learning its exact distance and spawn camping there. And the detect duration should be shortened to 30 seconds if more than 10 people (in the same GC) are within the radius to avoid GCs pushing an enemy into their spawn to make them all visible on their maps for 3 minutes, and same GC to avoid a 5+6 spawn camp sandwich. This would incredibly punish the spawn campers without actually doing damage to the players' HP. -
10-16-2015, 07:37 AMGastonIt made me so mad. LolQuote:
Originally Posted by TwiissTwiiss