Some speculations about Ysale (possible spoilers if you haven't completed HW)

Hi folks

Ysayle is one of my favourite Heavensward characters; I found her deeply sympathetic and appealing and so I've been amusing myself trying to investigate some of her story. A lot of what follows is more psychological speculation than lore (there are a couple of lore questions too!) so i hope you're not offended by finding this on the lore forums.

Ysayle is an Elezen woman who lived in Falcon’s Nest before the Calamity. She had begun having visions before this, visions born out of the Echo, visions that came without warning and terrified her. Presumably she did not understand them in the slightest. We do not know how old she was when the Calamity happened but probably still in her teens since Midgardsormr refers to her as ‘the child who glimpsed the truth’. At that time Falcon’s Nest was quickly buried under snow and ice, and Ysale fled with others – possibly with her family? – to Ishgard. But while she and her companions were trying to find a way through ‘the wall’, an avalanche struck, and all the others were lost. Instead of continuing to Ishgard, she chose to turn alone for Dravania for some reason, perhaps because of the visions she had been experiencing. She expected the dragons to find her; perhaps she expected them to kill her. Since she believed she had lost everything, perhaps she wanted them to. But it was the great dragon Hraesvelgr who found her, and the Echo allowed her to hear his voice and see ‘the truth through his eyes’. When she discovered this ‘truth’ – the truth about the Dragonsong War – she found new purpose. She believed it was her destiny to show the people of Ishgard what had really happened and end the war between dragon and man (At the End of Our Hope, Heavensward)

Like the Warrior of Light, however, she does not really understand how the dragons can still bear such a potent grudge after so long. She believes that Nidhogg will give up the war if he recovers his Eye; she is at a loss how to explain the slaughter in Foundation after she opened the defences for the dragons. ‘It wasn’t supposed to be like that! You have to believe me! It was . . . beyond my control. Children taught to fear the skies, who saw their loved ones slaughtered . . . Yet the Dravanians – though they know where the fault truly lies – fell on them with such fury . . .’

Midgardsormr tries to explain it, although he confesses himself that he doubts she - or the Warrior of Light - can understand. ‘Men die, and their children forget. But we are everlasting. To us, then is as now. Thou canst not comprehend the violation. The outrage. The fury.’ (Midgardsormr, At the End of Our Hope, Heavensward)

I see Ysayle as a terrified fifteen-year-old, tormented by bloody visions (perhaps she thinks she is going mad?) who endures the horror of the Calamity and then loses all her friends and family in an avalanche. She heads for Dravania - her words at this point almost suggest she is expecting to die when the dragons find her, perhaps even hopes for it - and meets Hraesvelgr. And what she learns then gives her purpose. She becomes evangelical, almost fanatical, in pursuit of it. Having lost everything and endured terrible things, this is hardly surprising. She is a hugely compelling character, almost a tragic heroine, at least for me.

So ... my questions. I'm interested to hear how other people see Ysayle, whether you agree with my estimation of her age, and the impact of the losses she endured. I would also like to know who you think told her about the Echo. She does refer to it as the Echo so someone cleared up the mystery for her. What is the 'wall' she refers to when heading for Ishgard from Falcon's Nest? Is Midgardsormr's explanation of the dragons' continuing thirst for vengeance acceptable or is he right that men will never understand?

Thanks for your time and patience!

I actually found Ysayle to the the weakest of the Heavensward trio (herself, Estinien, and Alphinaud).

Her first appearance in 3.0 immediately soured my impression of her. We call her out on what happened at the Steps of Faith, and her response is "That's not what was supposed to happen..." As if! You were standing on the bridge cheering them on! They're a bunch of angry dragons; did you really think they were just gonna go after the Ishgardian power structure?!

(Admittedly I was pretty hot off the DRK 30-50 line, and thus a bit drunk on truth at the time.)

Regardless, my opinion of her did not improve much over 3.0's story. She constantly chastises Estinien for immediately suggesting killing any dragon that stands in our way while making no effort to understand his point of view. Estinien doesn't either, but he makes no excuses and does not ride a high horse. Then you finally finish the long, long first act of Heavensward and as it turns out she's running on a half-baked ideal based on a short glimpse of the past... foolishness. Utter foolishness.

Reminded me an awful lot of 2.0 Alphinaud, in a way.

That's not to say I disliked her - she was well-written and relatable - but her arrogance and lack of thought really irritated me, in addition to her refusal of responsibility for what happened at the Steps of Faith, really made me... not like her. Neutral stance.

I'd put her at ~24 years old; if she were a young teen, she'd probably be about the same height as Alphinaud and Alisae, but is significantly taller than either. She's lived though the Calamity, as can be inferred from her comments about having been from Falcon's Nest or Riversmeet.

It was probably the Ascians who explained the Echo to Ysayle. Lahabrea / Nabriales were using her as a guinea pig and pawn in 2.x, sort of, by trying to see if mortals could take on primal essences. Essentially her Shiva mode is a prototype of the Heavens' Ward "Knights of the Round" own primal forms. She probably wouldn't have tried to do what she did if she didn't know about the Echo and that it makes her immune to tempering (though that leaves the Knights of the Round as a bit of a plot hole, though I've said that countless times before).

Not sure what this "wall" is. I don't recall it ever being mentioned, but then again I rarely pick apart dialogue like that. My best guess would be that it refers to the large gate that bars the path to the Sea of Clouds from the Western Highlands, since every other way out of the area leads to Dravania. If not, then it's probably a metaphor them making it to Ishgard only to be turned away because the nobles are a bunch of stuck-up jerks, or perhaps said nobles erected a literal wall to keep refugees out. /shrug

The problem with the "time is different for dragons" shtick the dragons all use to excuse their actions is that it's very difficult to bridge the gap between their value system and that of mortals. Since they're almost functionally immortal, dragons neither forget nor forgive mortals for their sins, but their whole "sons must answer for their fathers' misdeeds" on top of it just takes them into prime jerkassery levels. I mean, it's possible to understand their point of view, but at the same time it's so fundamentally flawed and unfair that I can't really sympathize with them. A thousand-year war of attrition against the descendants of people long dead is just unnecessary, no matter how you slice it. Most of the Ishgardians don't even know why they're being attacked, or have the wool pulled over their eyes, and have no time to question it.

Wait Cilia, didnt Ysayle said: "I'm no saint, just another siner". Isn't that a way to admit her responsabilities on what happened on the Foundation?

To an extent. The way I perceived it was she was basically saying "It's the dragons' fault for not doing what I expected them to." Everything went exactly as she expected it to... it just turns out the dragons were not too keen on going straight for the Church, because again, Ysayle was running on a half-baked ideal based on a momentary glimpse of the past.

So while she does accept responsibility for what happened, she still thinks the dragons could have been convinced to just go after the Church, and that would make everything better. To quote one of my favorite lines from IX:

Quote:

---

'tis foolishness! If all were so easy, why, none would suffer in this world!

---

I agree with you, Cilia, that Ysayle is around 24 or so at the point of Heavensward. Which would make her a young teen when she started having visions because of the Echo; she does say that predates the Calamity. I would imagine that was pretty terrifying for her, especially if she'd been raised to hate and fear dragons, as I imagine she had. I also agree that her excuse - it wasn't my fault! - about what happened at Foundation is unacceptable. She undid Ishgard's defenses without thinking about what would happen afterwards and without truly understanding the dragons and how their minds worked. However I do find her story very moving; I can very much empathise with that young girl who loses everything so tragically and then seizes upon what she sees as her mission to replace everything she has lost. I wish her 'back-story' didn't get lost for most people in the urge to spam through cut-scenes as I think it adds a powerful dimension to her development as a character. But I do think most of the main protagonists in the HW story were incredibly well-drawn and very believable. Just so many tears!

I wonder if the echo is an ability that shows itself in puberty specifically? I agree that it was possibly the Ascians that told her what caused her visions - they do so like to meddle - but I need to look back at the stuff from Dreams of Ice before I'm completely convinced about that. It's always possible that either Hraesvelgr or Midgardsormr told her. Midgardsormr certainly knows what it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

Not sure what this "wall" is. I don't recall it ever being mentioned, but then again I rarely pick apart dialogue like that. My best guess would be that it refers to the large gate that bars the path to the Sea of Clouds from the Western Highlands, since every other way out of the area leads to Dravania.

---

With the proximity of Falcon's Nest to the (I believe) the old way between Western and Central Coerthas, I believe the "wall" is the new wall of ice that formed when the weather so suddenly shifted. In fact, there's a quest from the mid-30s or early 40s in Central Coerthas that has you find and retrieve the ring of a man's dead wife (my description makes is sound so callous when it's actually really touching) from that ice cliff...

And she was killed in an avalanche that occurred shortly after the Calamity. Wouldn't be at all surprised that it was the same avalanche.

Just wanted to point out that the 'wall' she was stuck behind following the calamity is almost certainly Snowcloak. The giant wall of ice didn't exist before the calamity and you could move between CCH and CWH through there.

The wall they speak of is Snowcloak. Snowcloak is not just a wall of ice. It is almost a living thing itslef. If you look at it, you can see that it glows and sparkles in a way that normal ice does not. There is also a leve for that area that explains how people think the wall itself to be a massive cloudkin. It heals itself immediately after being attacked, responds to threats by producing ice sprites and biting winds, and grows at an unnatural rate.

Yeah, totes forgot about Snowcloak being an unnatural formation created by the Calamity... not sure if 3 people needed to correct me though. :> Makes sense, seeing as it's used as the Heretics' HQ with the Akh Afah Ampitheatre in there and such. We also went into the area though the Western Highlands in a relatively early 3.0 quest, so...

Anyway, the only people that could have explained the Echo to Ysayle is either Midgardsormr or the Ascians. She never met Hraesvelgr proper before Heavensward; I believe it was mentioned she just saw him flying overhead or something, got an Echo vision of his past with Shiva, and based her ideals on what she saw. (She may have even gone so far as to style herself after "Saint" Shiva.) We can be fairly certain it was the Ascians who taught her the summoning ritual, and she mentions Midgardsormr (as the "Keeper of the Lake") so it could have been either one of them. It's not of much consequence, but I lean towards the Ascians because I am +99% sure they are the ones who told her she couldn't be tempered thanks to it, since there is no other explanation for how she not only learned the primal summoning ritual but also how she got the idea for channeling a primal as a sort of super mode. (Then again, ol' Middy does try and temper us or something after the Keeper of the Lake...)

Can't say for sure if Echo awakening is related to a specific age or time of life. The Warrior of Light can be inferred to be in his/her early to mid twenties at the start of 2.0, so it's probably not something that first manifests during puberty, or at least has no specific stage of life it first manifests itself in. (I don't see why this is consequential anyway.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

A thousand-year war of attrition against the descendants of people long dead is just unnecessary, no matter how you slice it. Most of the Ishgardians don't even know why they're being attacked, or have the wool pulled over their eyes, and have no time to question it.

---

I used to think like this, but the quests in Dravania kind of changed my mind about it...

Old dragons actually seem quite rare. Obviously there is Midgardsormr and his brood, but the rest... Well, who got sent off to fight and die in our wars? The young. Young is of course subjective, since we have dragons nearing a century of life who are acting like a three year old, but the point still stands, the majority of dragons fighting aren't very old. That difference in time perception means they'll develop slowly, as shown in the quests. What dragons, then, survive to pass on their values and morals? Not the right ones, that's for sure. If you're a dragon, and you're surviving the Dragonsong War, you've done so in one of two ways; By staying the heck out of it, or by killing before you're killed. Both are in no position to pass on particularly good values. The later is certainly what Nidhoggs brood has essentially become, admittedly by some bias on Nidhoggs side. The former? Those are the ones we get quests with. A "young" wyvern is told not to travel to mortal lands. He is young though, so he gets curious. He gets shot out of the sky for it, while mortals cheer. Then he returns to lick his wounds, which seems to involve sleeping for years (by the time he'd wake up, would the mortals who shot him even be alive?). He then grows up not trusting mortals, and he passes that on to the next generation. That only changed when we stepped in and gave a new perception on mortals.

Dragons are really in the same situation as Ishgard, except they're perhaps not being lied to, but the truth doesn't really favor Ishgard... Ancient dragons, like Midgardsormr and Nidhogg, could arguably know better... But consider their perception; They've seen this happen before. Once bitten, twice shy, and they've been bitten twice... That's all we know of, too... We don't know how they interacted with mortals in other eras... Even if other eras were relatively peaceful for dragons though, we know they weren't for mortals. From their perception, we exist just to cause conflict, that just seems to be part of our nature... Arguably dragons are the same, we certainly see them disagree in the Churning Mists, but that's the only real disagreement we see between dragons, and it's a disagreement that started because of mortals. Not only do we sow conflict between each other, we sow it between others as well... That we're even given a chance by Midgardsormr speaks volumes of either his character, or his contract with Hydaelyn...

"Sons must answer for their fathers' misdeeds" does not mean "You are being punished for your fathers mistakes". I actually fully agree with him after realizing this, though it's an obscure way of making his point... His point is that we should learn from past mistakes, and if we're punished, it's because we haven't. Case and point, what did Ishgard learn from Thordans misdeeds? Nothing, they reject that the events even happened, and continued wronging (knowingly or not, for the common folk) dragons. What did the world learn from the Allag? Well, Garlemald certainly learned nothing. Ishgard ignores the misdeeds of its father. Garlemald doesn't even consider them misdeeds. Neither is answering for those mistakes, and instead repeating them. Well, Ishgard finally is, Heavensward is the story of Ishgard answering for its fathers' misdeeds, literally ending with a battle with its father...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

Can't say for sure if Echo awakening is related to a specific age or time of life. The Warrior of Light can be inferred to be in his/her early to mid twenties at the start of 2.0, so it's probably not something that first manifests during puberty, or at least has no specific stage of life it first manifests itself in. (I don't see why this is consequential anyway.)

---

I wonder what sets it off then ... In our case, it was finding the first crystal (I think). Or a similar 'crucial' event if you played 1.x. What did Ysayle experience that awakened the Echo? I mean, I know we don't know and therefore just have to speculate but - as you've probably gathered - I do love to speculate.

Anyway, about Dravanian attitudes to men and war ... The old ones, like Midgardsormr and Nidhogg, are very old, and most of their experiences with men have led them to conclude that conflict is men's natural bent.

In the scene with Tiamat at the end of HW Midgardsormr says ‘So, thy journey hath led thee to this accursed place. Canst thou hear it, mortal? The ceaseless keening of my kindred, steeped in five thousand years of suffering... Long before the Ishgardians and their base betrayal, there lived still more wicked men whose ambitions knew no bounds. Fearful of our might and covetous of our power, they devised a means to enslave dragonkind... Their vile misdeeds did set in motion a train of events whose repercussions are felt to this day. Beyond, thou wilt find one of my first brood. Hark thou unto her words. Partake thou of her pain. Think thou upon the suffering that the conflict betwixt our kinds hath begot.’ (Midgardsormr, Fetters of Lament, Heavensward).

And Tiamat claims that she and Bahamut and their many offspring lived peacefully in Meracydia for a long time. Until the Allage arrived. I know that Tiamat is bound to present things from her own perspective, but it seems to me that the experiences of Midgardsormr and the First Brood almost inevitably lead them to think men can't be trusted.

When Midgardsormr first meets us he calls us frail and ignoble; that's his experience of 'men' talking. It's only after witnessing our struggles and our resolve that he learns differently, at least of the WoL, and can say '‘Strong art thou, mortal─stronger than any other of thy kind. Having looked upon thy deeds, I am convinced. Thou art worthy to bear Her Light. The covenant bound me to thee, but 'twould seem our fates were mingled from the first. Though I will not fight thy battles, I will yet lend thee my wings. Come, mortal – we go to cast out the Darkness!’

So I insist on believing there is good in the Dravanians - some of them, at least! Nidhogg is clearly crazy and probably incapable of changing his perspective.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elladie

I wonder what sets it off then ... In our case, it was finding the first crystal (I think). Or a similar 'crucial' event if you played 1.x. What did Ysayle experience that awakened the Echo?

---

The echo is definitely not tied to a specific age, npcs of all ages would manifest it in 1.0. For the PC it manifested when they first entered their starting city. The PC then walked around in an echo trance for most of the first 15 levels without the character (or the player) realizing it. Echo memories in 1.0 were interactive and had only a faint sound effect to indicate the transition. It took the loremongers in 1.0 months to figure out what was going on. The only common elements in 1.0 of the echo manifesting was hearing “Hear, Feel, Think”, a vision of a starshower and dizziness. This did not necessarily happen right when the echo manifested though. I'd check out the old CG midlander thread and watch starting stories for 1.0 if you are interested in 1.0 echo.

The echo was also a lot more common as Minfilla ran an entire organization made of mostly echo users, “The Path of the Twelve”. I occasionally wonder what happened to all of them, as not everyone with the echo was a fighter and would have been at Carteneau, yet we never see more than a few npcs with the echo in 2.0+.

A lot of this has probably been quietly retconned, although Minfilla manifesting the echo as a child has not been.

I kinda figured that Ysayle was in her mid to late twenties when the calamity happened. She looked basically the same as she does now, and elezan age a bit more slowly than the other races. I think she was just very sheltered and naïve, in a lot of ways she still is in Heavensward. If I recall, Alphanaud and Alisae are seventeen at the start of ARR.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nalien

I used to think like this, but the quests in Dravania kind of changed my mind about it...

---

While it's true the Ishgardians have not learned from Thordan's sins, this is arguably not their fault - the Church actively suppresses knowledge of the truth, to the point that the only people who know what actually sparked the Dragonsong War is the Heavens' Ward and the Archbishop. Even Aymeric, Knight-Commander of the Temple Knights, and Estinien, the Azure Dragoon, do not know the real reason why they are in an eternal war with the dragons and have been lied to their entire lives.

Without knowing the truth, it's impossible to learn from Thordan's mistakes. And seeing as the Church suppresses the truth, and the only options readily available to Ishgardians is to die in service to the country or become a heretic and later probably a dragon, the deck is stacked against them no matter what they choose. Heads die in service to Ishgard, tails commit suicide or become a dragon. Even the dragons have very few options with Nidhogg as their overlord: die for his vengeance, die to him, or live in seclusion.

It's not until we come along, as an independent third party, that the coin lands on its edge, the truth is let out, and the cycle is broken.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elladie

So I insist on believing there is good in the Dravanians - some of them, at least! Nidhogg is clearly crazy and probably incapable of changing his perspective.

---

Nidhogg may be a sadistic monster, but most of the dragons are neutral in stance. Hraesvelgr's brood isn't exactly benevolent, but they're not malicious either, and Midgardsormr is hard to place because he seems to take orders directly from Hydaelyn herself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elladie

I wonder what sets it off then ... In our case, it was finding the first crystal (I think). Or a similar 'crucial' event if you played 1.x. What did Ysayle experience that awakened the Echo? I mean, I know we don't

---

Just a quick note, but I'm pretty sure you awaken to the Echo at the very start of ARR as a new character, hence being able to talk and understand the moogles on the transport. And Hydaelyn. And see Lahabrea - or a vision of him.

Ysale is one of those characters that makes me regret the fact that the WoL is a silent protagonist.

I wanted to talk to her after the revelation at Zenith, Echo User to Echo User.

It just felt so wrong to leave her there spiritually and emotionally broken with out so much as saying it was time to accept the truth and move on.

The fact she commits suicide in Azys Lla was such a waste. She could have gone primal, Hrasvelgr could have joined in with his brood and we could have dealt Garlemauld a second blow like they took at silver tear skis.

But nope, Emo Suicide from her, Hrasvelgr go back home to be emo again, and we are no closer to stopping the war than when we started.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Ysale is one of those characters that makes me regret the fact that the WoL is a silent protagonist.

---

Thisthisthiiiiiis. With how personal HW got, with Ysayle, Haurchefant, the Dark Knight 30-50 quest line, etc, etc, it's getting much, much more frustrating being silent.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elladie

she does not really understand how the dragons can still bear such a potent grudge after so long. She believes that Nidhogg will give up the war if he recovers his Eye; she is at a loss how to explain the slaughter in Foundation after she opened the defences for the dragons. ‘It wasn’t supposed to be like that! You have to believe me! It was . . . beyond my control. Children taught to fear the skies, who saw their loved ones slaughtered . . . Yet the Dravanians – though they know where the fault truly lies – fell on them with such fury . . .’

---

I've been playing for a while with the German voice acting turned on, though I have the English edition. In the German, when she opens the defenses of Ishgard, she says something like, "The time has come to fall on them with blood and fire!" If she truly didn't think that "blood and fire" was going to include innocents, then she's naive beyond words.

As for the dragons... Darwin said that the species which survives is not necessarily the strongest or fastest, but the most adaptable. So how have the Dravanians survived, if they can't let go of hatreds after thousands of years? If you were Gulliver, washed up on an island of Lilliputians, and those wee folk, in addition to small stature, lived for but a few days each, how long would you go on tormenting their descendants for tying you down and blinding you? Because tormenting is exactly what Niddhog is doing. He's not truly fighting a war, he's just trying to inflict equivalent misery, generation after generation. Crazy and inflexible... someone should have killed him long before.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JeniLinsky

He's not truly fighting a war, he's just trying to inflict equivalent misery, generation after generation. Crazy and inflexible... someone should have killed him long before.

---

That's why you don't leave something for dead, you decapitate it and burn the corpse to remove all doubt. After all, Midgardsormr was "Dead" for nearly 30 years before coming back as our little shoulder pet. But his body, despite being deceased, was still intact thus giving his soul something to cling onto. (the Metric <Kupo> tone of Aether and cerulium he was sitting on didn't hurt either)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JeniLinsky

As for the dragons... Darwin said that the species which survives is not necessarily the strongest or fastest, but the most adaptable. So how have the Dravanians survived, if they can't let go of hatreds after thousands of years?

---

I'm not sure how we go about applying the theory of evolution to the dragons as a species since individual members of that species are so long- lived. I don't know how it would work, practically speaking, but it seems to me that any race that has members who live for an incredibly long time are bound to come up against issues when it relates to change and adaptability. In fact near-immortality sounds as if it would be fraught with problems regarding mental stability, especially if the world and the rest of the folk in it are subject to changes of often cataclysmic proportions like Hydaelyn seems to be.

On the other hand, Midgardsormr seems pretty adaptable. By the end of HW, he appears prepared to work with Aymeric to establish a lasting peace. Perhaps we'll even see him and the dragons at Anyx Trine oppose Nidhogg. Even Hraesvelgr's people - and Hraesvelgr is a real sit-on-the-fence guy - aren't happy with Nidhogg's minions as the FATES in the Churning Mists make clear. But dragons do like to cling to their grievances; look at Tiamat. I just hope she comes around and decides she can do more good by avenging Bahamut upon the Ascians instead of moping