The Echo and languages

I've two rather simple clarification questions that I'm sure were answered before in-game and I missed it.

First: Does the Echo allow us to read the scripts and symbols of any language?

Second: Can we just understand other languages, or do we actually speak them?

I always assumed it was the latter, since speaking and understanding are both necessary for communication, however, the Ascians are throwing me for a loop here and I'm not sure how this works.

I'm assuming that, when your Echo-translation is on it's automatically translating the words as you hear them into your character's native tongue. Assuming you can speak any language, it should work the same way and you sort of auto-translate it before it leaves you.

Yet the Ascians speak, er, Ascian (Ascianish?) when not inside a host. Which leads me to believe you can't actually speak the languages and can only understand them. Either that, or the Ascians can somehow turn off their auto-translate. Which is it?

I think the only time you see Ascians using their "native tongue" is in cutscenes where the WOL or Minfilia aren't involved. Both characters can understand Ascians through the Echo, and the cutscene "text boxes" refer to the change between "You're not supposed to understand this" and "The player is understanding what's being said". If you recall, the cutscenes in the Rising Stones with Nabriales and Elidibus looks like an Ascian standing in silence looking at Minfilia and the WOL to the rest of the Scions, but they're just soliloquizing away to the two characters that can understand them.

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Originally Posted by fm_fenrir

I think the only time you see Ascians using their "native tongue" is in cutscenes where the WOL or Minfilia aren't involved. Both characters can understand Ascians through the Echo, and the cutscene "text boxes" refer to the change between "You're not supposed to understand this" and "The player is understanding what's being said". If you recall, the cutscenes in the Rising Stones with Nabriales and Elidibus looks like an Ascian standing in silence looking at Minfilia and the WOL to the rest of the Scions, but they're just soliloquizing away to the two characters that can understand them.

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Edit: I misread, sorry. That's exactly why I ask. It's like they turn off speaking Echo-translate sometimes - if it exists at all, which is what I'm asking. Either the Echo only allows for understanding and not speaking the languages, or you can turn the speaking translate off. Somehow.

1. It's never been stated anywhere that we can read foreign languages thanks to the Echo. Since the Echo basically works by auto-translating spoken words, I don't think it applies to text. Could be wrong, but until we get clarification on that detail (if ever), I have to assume that text translation is not a feature of the Echo package.

2. Since the Echo auto-translates any spoken words, whether or not it allows us to speak other languages is a bit redundant in regards to the Ascians. (We might not be able to imitate their black speech, but since they also have the Echo they understand what we're saying anyway.) I don't think it does, but until a situation comes up where that could be an issue, I don't think we'll get an official explanation. With enough exposure the Warrior of Light could probably imitate any language, but...

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Originally Posted by Cilia

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Well, Moenbryda is in those two scenes, so it's not entirely redundant. Nabriales does not seem to care that he's not understood, he just shrugs it off. Judging from that alone, it seems like we can't actually use the Echo to speak the languages. I think you bring up an interesting point in that, given enough time and exposure, we might be able to mimic a language however, but. . .again, Nabriales. No doubt he's had a ton of exposure to Eorzean languages and, if he wanted to, he could have been understood.

So my assumption would be the Ascians speak in modern languages because of their hosts and the Echo is limited to understanding only.

Edit: But oh man, The Rising event. Now, assuming this is even partially canon (big assumption there), our clearly Japanese-speaking devs seemed to be able to understand us.

The only time we've seen an Ascian speaking Common (for lack of a better term) is when Lahabrea was possessing Thancred... and that was probably for Gaius' sake, since until he was defeated Lahabrea was using Gaius as a pawn. It's not that the Ascians can't speak Common - they probably all can - they just don't see the need to, since +99% of the population can neither see nor hear them. Even then, what we've seen of the Ascians (except Elidibus) suggests they're overwhelmingly arrogant. They think they're the most awesome beings in existence behind Zodiark; why would they bother deigning to speak Common, the tongue of us mongels?

The only problem there is that Pope Thordan was able to understand Lahabrea, I think, despite nothing suggesting he ever had the Echo. Then again, a lot of what went on with the Heavens' Ward and their Super Sai- er, Primal Modes is a bit of a plot hole. Sort of.

Pretty sure The Rising isn't canon. Or at least, our journey to the Eighteenth Floor isn't canon. Aside from the fourth wall shattering, the "Quest" and the FATE related to it is one big programming / development joke.

Elidibus speaks "common" to you (but not Minfilia, which is really odd and I'm going to chalk it up as an inconsistency) when you speak with him during 2.1, and to Urianger, but as you said, he's a bit of an outlier and I'm not sure if we can judge the rest from him.

Igeyorhm speaks "common" to you after Bismarck, but reverts back to Ascian in the Research Facility. I can't really tell if they're speaking "common" or "Ascian" before the battle in the facility, since it's a cutscene, but they're definitely speaking Ascian after you defeat them.

And you're right, he definitely understands Lahabrea and the Ascian language. Before he becomes a Primal. How strange. There's really no reason for him to be able to do that.

The Omnilingualism that the Echo grants us is due to it connecting our souls with the soul of the being that is speaking. Thus while they are actually speaking another language we understand the intent and it is translated into words in our mind using the information the Echo is picking up from the speaker's soul.

So by that situation I'd imagine text and other writings would not be applied the same way unless some how said book or document has a soul of it's own. (not impossible in this world actually, just doesn't seem very likely )

Apparently our ability to communicate so freely with the beast tribes is due to the echo so I think that its likely we can actually use it to speak as well as hear. It could be the echo translates what we want to say for them directly in the same way that it translates what they say into something we understand.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

And you're right, he definitely understands Lahabrea and the Ascian language. Before he becomes a Primal. How strange. There's really no reason for him to be able to do that.

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I wonder sometimes if Ascians operate like the dragons. Dragons speak Draconic to us but people can understand them regardless. Alphinaud comments on being able to comprehend Hraesvelgr despite the language obviously not being a common tongue and Alphinaud does not have the Echo. Nor does Estinien, who can also understand Dragons.

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By the Twelve... Mine ears hear the tongue of dragons, yet the meaning rings clear within my mind... How can that be...? - Alphinaud

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Maybe Ascians speaking in their dark tongue are talking directly into the minds of people and when they speak the language of their hosts they speak common?

I've been curious about that dragon line for a while as well. It really came off like Alphinaud was experiencing something Echo-like from the dragon communication, but he's not sure how to describe it, having never really experienced it before.

But at the same time, even you with your Echo hears the Dragonspeak as its own language, rather than the words being Echo-translated for you into "common" like with the Ascian language. What I mean by this is that we can understand Lahabrea, his voice acting is in our common language when he's speaking in his language (source: CS after killing Igeyorhm) and the dragons speak, even to you, in a language that's definitely not "common."

So basically the dragons seem really odd, again, like the Echo can be turned off in some situations.

Pretty sure the Echo doesn't translate text, as there are a few side quests where you have to get things translated. Off the top of my head, The Rising (I know, I know) and the treasure hunt quest in between Horizon and Vesper Bay.

It's hard to say, as like the Echo itself the xenoglossic ability of the Echo was covered in far greater detail in 1.0, only to be mostly handwaved away in ARR other than a brief mention by Minfilia (it should be noted that not even all Echo users even have access to it - some Echo users cannot understand other languages, Minfilia herself being one who got the 'short' straw when it came to Echo potency).

One thing that was clear in 1.0 about this however, was that it actually worked both ways, in that the Echo not only allowed the user (read: the player's character) to understand an unknown language in their native tongue when it was spoken to them, it allowed them to then communicate back in kind.

This was demonstrated in 1.0 for instance when the player finds they understand mooglespeak, a language generally regarded as unintelligible by the spoken races and exceptionally difficult to master (in fact, it was this that was the first hint for players that something very strange was going on), they actually speak back to the moogle who understands them perfectly, suggesting that to the moogle at least, they were speaking in mooglespeak in kind, where to the player they were speaking in their own tongue (*cough* English *cough cough*). Krhimm also later tells the player to tell a moogle in no uncertain terms what he felt of them:

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Originally Posted by version 1.0 Gridanian main scenario quest 'Whispers in the Wood'

Khrimm: "You understand what it's saying? Then tell that little runt something for me! Tell it I'm going to prove that the elementals aren't real!"

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Then there is the humorous scene later on where Minfilia asks the player to translate Common Sylvaan after a group of crazed sylphs break into the Waking Sands and hold her hostage (they were actually desperate for help as the Garleans were storming Moonspore Grove at that point), which showed clearly that she doesn't possess xenoglossia (nor, does it seem, anyone else who was in the Waking Sands at that time, given she was desperately shouting for anyone to translate what they were saying!), and that the sylphs understand what the player tells them back:

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Originally Posted by version 1.0 main scenario quest 'Together, We Stand'

(Minfilia is standing helpless in her office at the Waking Sands as sylphs fly around her)
Almxio: "Must listen, listen! Terrible tidings! Terrible tidings!"
Minfilia: "I..I apologize, my friends. I do not understand your words."
Minfilia: "Brothers! Sisters! Is there anyone here who can speak the language of the sylphs?!"
(The player then walks in)
Mifnilia: "<Insert player name here>! Would you be so kind as to use your gift and interpret for us what the sylphs are saying?"
Almxio: "This one seeks help! Seeks help from the woken ones!"
Zoxio: "This one's home! This one's podlings! All in danger! Danger!"
Diluxio: "Metal ones! Metal ones approach the Grove!"
Minfilia: "...Metal ones? But that would mean-are you quite certain <insert player name here>? Gods, the Empire is attacking their home!"

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But that still leaves us back at the start: does the Echo translate text? Well, there is no conclusive proof to that effect, but remember back to the numerous times in ARR where the player is asked to 'recite arcane symbols and phrases' to activate or disable things like barriers or bridges? That seems like a lot like the Echo doing it's work on text to me... ;)

I'd echo SuperFlorinjin (pun intended), and confirm that the Echo does not translate texts. If I recall correctly, back in Limsa Lominsa version 1.0, Y'shtola had to translate the ancient script on a tablet recovered from Seal Rock, as the arcanist guildmaster at the time could not read it. The player character was with them, and he/she also could not read it. And in Limsa Lominsa version 2.0, the player-character would retrieve a coded message from a group of pirates who had attempted to sabotage the Moraby Drydocks. He/she couldn't read the text either, and had to have it deciphered by Baderon Tenfingers.

Interesting.

If Echo-translate lets us speak the languages, then that brings us back to why is Moenbryda unable to understand Nabriales?

Can verbal Echo-translate be turned off? Or, perhaps he simply, as mentioned, was not gifted with that particular part of it (which seems doubtful, considering Ascians seem to have much greater knowledge and proficiency in the Echo)?

It's probably an unconscious function, auto-translating our spoken word into whatever language the listener speaks, or perhaps it doesn't do that and only impresses our meaning into their mind similarly to how Hraesvelgr is able to speak draconic but still be understood by Alphinaud and Estinien. If there is a way to turn off the auto-translate function, doubtless the Ascians know of it, and use their Black Speech more often than not since they're so overwhelmingly arrogant (Elidibus excepted).

You're probably thinking about this too hard.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

Interesting.

If Echo-translate lets us speak the languages, then that brings us back to why is Moenbryda unable to understand Nabriales?

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Simple, Moenbryda doesn't have the Echo - none of the Archons do (Ferne confirmed this a while ago). Only Minfilia, the player and a couple of background npcs at the Waking Sands have the Echo (and most of this later group were killed when Livia stormed the place), but it's specific that the Sharalyans do not possess this gift (this is why none of them directly help you fight Primals, as the danger of them being tempered is far too great - I mean,

look what happened to Louisoix ;))

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

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No, no that's not why I ask.

Assumption: Since you've given examples of the Echo translating your speech, if Nabriales has the Echo, his language should undergo Echo-translation.
Conclusion: Moenbryda should be able to understand him, because he directly speaks to her (therefore, resonating with her soul) on at least two occasions. I really do think Cilia has the right of it and in his arrogance he simply does not care for her to understand; perhaps, given his personality, he was actually hoping she would do exactly what she did and attack him.

The echo isnt really used for the beast tribes as it may appear. While I cant speak for the majority of the "bad" beastmen, it has been shown on numerous occasions that most of the beast tribes understand the Eorzean language. This is shown when duringnthe beast tribe quests, barring Sahagin maybe, where each tribe communicates with several other NPC. Additionally the Black Mage quests has you communicating with several beastmen as well, though the dialogue indicates that the other NPCs involved have all communicated together. So the beastmen can speak the "common" tongue.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

No, no that's not why I ask.

Assumption: Since you've given examples of the Echo translating your speech, if Nabriales has the Echo, his language should undergo Echo-translation.
Conclusion: Moenbryda should be able to understand him, because he directly speaks to her (therefore, resonating with her soul) on at least two occasions. I really do think Cilia has the right of it and in his arrogance he simply does not care for her to understand; perhaps, given his personality, he was actually hoping she would do exactly what she did and attack him.

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The echo let us understand another language, but that doesnt mean we can talk that foreing language.

Another thing I would like to add is that about the echo, is that is kind hard for me to know when is your echo translating another language and when doesnt. A pefect example is the beast tribe quests, well simple by nocing and beacuse we are with some spoen races I would assume they were really talking the spoken lamguage and not their own. My quiention is, if we dont include the ascians, the black text is obious, when are we understanding a foreing language and when the beast tribe is actally speaking our language?

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Originally Posted by Eloah

The echo isnt really used for the beast tribes as it may appear. While I cant speak for the majority of the "bad" beastmen, it has been shown on numerous occasions that most of the beast tribes understand the Eorzean language. This is shown when duringnthe beast tribe quests, barring Sahagin maybe, where each tribe communicates with several other NPC. Additionally the Black Mage quests has you communicating with several beastmen as well, though the dialogue indicates that the other NPCs involved have all communicated together. So the beastmen can speak the "common" tongue.

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I can personally attest to the Sahagan since I saw Novv just yesterday speak directly to a Malestrom NPC and be understood by the NPC.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

The echo isnt really used for the beast tribes as it may appear. While I cant speak for the majority of the "bad" beastmen, it has been shown on numerous occasions that most of the beast tribes understand the Eorzean language. This is shown when duringnthe beast tribe quests, barring Sahagin maybe, where each tribe communicates with several other NPC. Additionally the Black Mage quests has you communicating with several beastmen as well, though the dialogue indicates that the other NPCs involved have all communicated together. So the beastmen can speak the "common" tongue.

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Some can. After all the weird way Goblins speak is specifically because of their attempt to speak in a language more native to those they trade with. While many of our beastmen allies likely can speak common, the lore on the goblin suggests that the majority can't. That would make sense as there is little reason the Ixali or the Amal'jaa ore even the majority of the Sahagin would have any reason to learn common.

I think it just comes down to being another retcon, as 1.0 clearly showed the beastmen not being able to communicate with the spoken races usually, (and which was explained as also being a long-standing source of tension between the citystates and the beast tribes), so much so special organizations like the Ashcrown Consortium were set up with the specific purpose to negotiate trade with them, using beast men themselves to act as intermediaries and translators (specifically, sylphs) as well as non-Echo using members of the spoken races who had learned the beast tribe languages the hard way. Often they had to still call upon the Path of the Twelve though when even that wasn't enough in communicating with the beastmen, showing the Echo's xenoglossic ability as being extremely important when negotiating with the beast tribes.

Now in ARR however, it seems to be mostly handwaved away - beastmen seem to have no trouble communicating with non-Echo using spoken, apart from a background npc at Little Solace in the East Shroud, who, judging by his frustrated comments and the puzzled question mark speech bubble above the sylphs he's trying to talk to, cannot speak sylvaan. But on the whole, it's seems the beast tribes can speak the same language as the spoken races in ARR, retconning how 1.0 showed them.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

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It mighy not be retconning just for the sake of retconning. Remember that at least 5 years have passed since 1.0 and 5 years is plenty of time to learn enough of a language to be considered "fluent".