Is Urianger going to betray us?

I remember somewhere in the storyline that we were shown a cutscene with Urianger meeting an Ascian behind our back. Was this ever explained?

What is the deal with that? I'm kind of confused because even after that scene he explicitely helps us against the Ascians. He supplies us with the crystal needed to destroy Lahabrea and the female ascian chick. Is this part of Elidibus's plan? Or is Urianger just playing spying for us by pretending to be with the Ascians? Very interesting to think about what might happen.

I'm honestly not sure at this point. I don't think Urianger is necessarily evil - but to me, his speaking to and working with the Ascians might point to some larger theme within the story. We know that, for instance, not all of the Ascians agree on the path that they should take to reach the next rejoining. Perhaps Zodiark's existence as a foil to the Mother Crystal is necessary for the health of the world? They often refer to Hydaelyn as a parasite, and there might be some truth to that - we don't know at all that she's a purely benevolent creature. And even if she is, there's always the possibility that, despite her benevolence, she can still be harmful without something opposing her will on the world. I'm willing to bet there's more to the Ascian's goals than "We're doing it for the evulz god."

Uriange and Elidibus were put in the precarious situation where they were both screwed if they didn't work together.

The disdain in both of their tones showed that there was no love lost between them and that it was most certainly a temporary truce.

What they needed to collaborate on remains unexplained as of right now but it can be assumed that they needed to team up to prevent the warring triad from awakening as that'd likely be just as bad for the Ascians as it would the Scions. Thus why it's commonly believed Unukalhai is either Elidibus Himself for one of his servants acting as his go between. Because Uriange himself said that Unukalhai was "not our enemy,least not for the moment" which he said with very clear disgust at the idea of working with him.

So I don't think Urianger is at risk of turning on us. After all, Nebralus went Rouge which resulted in Moenbryda's death, and Elidibus did nothing to stop him ahead of time. (And since even Lahabrea seemed afraid of him I'm taking it he's not one to piss off). So considering all that I'd find it hard to work with someone who killed my girlfriend.

Dem spoilers tho...

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Originally Posted by Jamillion

Dem spoilers tho...

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2.X content isn't considered spoilers anymore dude.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

2.X content isn't considered spoilers anymore dude.

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It kind of is, especially considering how many people started playing because of the expansion.

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Originally Posted by Jamillion

It kind of is, especially considering how many people started playing because of the expansion.

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This is the LORE forum. People concerned about spoilers shouldn't be reading here. Seriously.

I don't think he will.

If anything, Elidibus gave him the Auracite because Elidibus was the one who wanted to get rid of the problems on his side (that little clique we saw at the end of 2.0, the Watery Trigon; Lahabrea, Nabriales, Pashtarot). They were definitely acting up.

A quote, from 2.1:
"Perhaps Lahabrea may yet learn from his mistakes."
And when Lahabrea doesn't learn, that's when you get the frustrated Elidibus from 2.55, who gives Urianger the Auracite.

I really do think Elidibus intended for you to kill Lahabrea with it, not necessarily Igeyorhm. I think he believed Igeyorhm could have been reeled in, so to speak, given she had more of a passive personality than Nabriales and Lahabrea, if the more direct and brash members of her little group were gone.

But we killed Igeyorhm instead, since she tried to escape first.

The thing about Elidibus is that we don't know his methods. A lot of people seem to be projecting the methods of the brash, more impatient trigon onto him when he has clearly condemned them (and likely actively eliminated one of them). We know his end goal, but we don't know the reasons why or how he intends to reach them.

It's going to be the typical "Oh, he betrayed us, how dare he, but he's double crossing the bad guys so we forgive him now" thing.

Elidibus cut a deal with Urianger, because he knew Lahabrea would attempt another rush job. He sounded pretty pissed about having to clean up after Lahabrea's screw ups a second time. I recall Elidibus preaching patience to the other Ascians, and none of them are willing to wait another astral/umbral cycle to revive Zodiark. Strike while the hammer is hot, if you will. Except that this hammer is being rapidly cooled by the WoL. So for now, Urianger's goals are the same as Elidibus', which is to clean up the primal mess.

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Originally Posted by Jamillion

Dem spoilers tho...

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This whole subforum is being populated by unhidden spoilers daily. To read and understand the current lore is to be spoiling the story regardless. What's the point of going "SPOILERS11!!" for older content now?

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Originally Posted by Dalvy

I recall Elidibus preaching patience to the other Ascians, and none of them are willing to wait another astral/umbral cycle to revive Zodiark. Strike while the hammer is hot, if you will. Except that this hammer is being rapidly cooled by the WoL. So for now, Urianger's goals are the same as Elidibus', which is to clean up the primal mess.

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I don't really think it's all of them. As I said, it's really only the water trigon that seems to be so impatient. We've seen Altima and Emmeroloth as well, or at least heard their voices, but they seem to listen to Elidibus and haven't interfered. Meanwhile, the trigon was actively set on interfering right from the outset of 2.0 and now Pashtarot is the only one of their clique left.

I'm fully of mind that the Ascians have multiple factions within them; they have the same goal, but different ideas on how to best reach it.

I mean, who knows. Elidibus might even have his own completely separate agenda. I doubt we'll learn the truth any time soon.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

I don't really think it's all of them. As I said, it's really only the water trigon that seems to be so impatient. We've seen Altima and Emmeroloth as well, or at least heard their voices, but they seem to listen to Elidibus and haven't interfered. Meanwhile, the trigon was actively set on interfering right from the outset of 2.0 and now Pashtarot is the only one of their clique left.

I'm fully of mind that the Ascians have multiple factions within them; they have the same goal, but different ideas on how to best reach it.

I mean, who knows. Elidibus might even have his own completely separate agenda. I doubt we'll learn the truth any time soon.

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I think it may pull the classic Elidibus=Mortal Zodiark. Thus why going"Off Script " is such a crime to Elidibus. He alone is full 100% informed about "THE Plan" because he's Zodiark's slumbering form thus knows what HE needs in order to awaken.

I agree, that's actually what I've been considering as well. I mean, I have no proof beyond just a feeling that he is an avatar of Zodiark.

I guess if I had to defend my argument, I would say his title of Emissary really implies he's an Emissary of Zodiark's will rather than an Emissary of the Ascians. This is because he is clearly at the center of their little "meeting" in 2.3, and preaches as if speaking Zodiark's will.

Agreed. While there are no concrete moments to support my belief either, I just find it odd how Elidibus alone seems to know so much about Zodiark's will and pacing. So we can conclude one of two things by that, Elidibus either is Zodiark or at least a manifestation of his will or that Elidibus him self is conspiring against Zodiark which I find unlikely as the situations with Lahabrea and Nebralus going rouge and doing their own thing was met with contempt and disgust.

If it turns out true that Elidibus is Zodiark/Zodiark's Will incarnate then that may also explain why he alone seemed privy to the Warrior of Darkness's Existence, And he HEAVILY implied that they were HIS personal trump card and that no one else knew they existed, not even his own co-conspirators.

I highly doubt Urianger will betray us, the Ascians killed Moenbryda ...whom is basically his love interest ...GET REVENGE URIANGER GET REVENGE.

If Urianger falls, it will likely be to the classic trope "But I needed more power, to exact my just retribution!"

He'll go Primal, excusing it as needing the juice to slaughter Ascians; or he'll come up with some non-Primal-related way to "become more powerful than you could possibly imagine!"

If he falls.

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Originally Posted by Pomelo

I highly doubt Urianger will betray us, the Ascians killed Moenbryda ...whom is basically his love interest ...GET REVENGE URIANGER GET REVENGE.

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But he could easily blame that on the WoL/Scions for putting her in that situation and failing to protect her. If so, Elidibus's secret truth could easily at least put him against us, if not necessarily on the Ascians' side.

Um, you forgot to put a good Spoilers note to this thread.
Anyway, the white ascian has said that Hydealyn's power is getting to close to the realm of the gods, and equilibrium needs to be restored.

My take on this: If Hydealyn power is not kept in check we will have a catastrophe on our hands, a disaster only mentioned once throughout FF history (that I am aware of) The Flood of Light.

My hope for story development if you follow this logic: Hydaelyn and Zodiark will stir during the class of their champions and awesomeness will ensue.

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Originally Posted by Erudito

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Is the WOL not Hydaelyn.

Honeslty I think most people misundertood what Elidibus was saing, there is no balance needed to controled. The WoL is not putting anything on danger. When the white ascian said that the "rift between light and dark will begin to shade" it was only meaning that we are becaming a real thread to them and putting their plans in danger of failing there no balance or something that needs to be keep, the realm is not going to be end on disaster if there is more light than dark. Also when he meaned "equilibrium needs to be restore". again there no balance needs to restored. he was mening that he was going to bring someone the same as powerfull as the WoL, the WoD.

It better not be lame, when the WOL and Alpanhaud find out it better not be "ohhh we understand what Urianger was doing so we aren't going to beat the snot out of him" I hated it when Square made the entire Sultania situation a dud. imagine we could had a cool dungeon or trial in Ul'dah in which we fought ilberd and the crystal braves, instead we got some annoying solo quest

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Originally Posted by PogueX

It better not be lame, when the WOL and Alpanhaud find out it better not be "ohhh we understand what Urianger was doing so we aren't going to beat the snot out of him" I hated it when Square made the entire Sultania situation a dud. imagine we could had a cool dungeon or trial in Ul'dah in which we fought ilberd and the crystal braves, instead we got some annoying solo quest in which Ilberd escapes

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we had a satisfing vengance :P
Also a lot of people put attention to the cuteneses of 2.55 and notice there were lots of things that didnt make sence, the comig back of the sultana was mostly expected.

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

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I don't think we know that. That's really...quite an assumption to be making, actually. Elidibus was talking about the restoration of balance all the way back in 2.X, before the Warrior was nearly as strong. So was Lahabrea.

Again, I don't think we know enough about the situation with Hydaelyn and Zodiark. There might be quite a bit to the situation that does require balance and the transfer of energy.

It's really intended to be vague, to keep you interested and talking about lore (like we are).

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

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back on 2.1 Elidibus was saing the same like the orthers, "to make the world like onece was and how would have ever been", in orther words he too wants to bring Zodiark back. He was never refering to a restoration of balance.

but yes we dont have enought evidence to prove both things.

I still think that Urianger is somehow related to the Ascians in the same way as Travanchet from 1.0.

For gameplay reasons, he'll never betray us.
Otherwise, who will give us our 2.0 EX Primal quests? :p

I hope so. I'd love to smack him around... he's the scion I hate the most, even more than Minfilia.

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Originally Posted by Wadoka

He'll go Primal, excusing it as needing the juice to slaughter Ascians; or he'll come up with some non-Primal-related way to "become more powerful than you could possibly imagine!".

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Please look forward to patch V.0: The phantom menace starring Punished "Miasma" Urianger

"But Alphinaud.... I'm already a demon..."

NOT FOR HONOR

ALL FOR REVENGE


WOOOOOAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

For gameplay reasons, he'll never betray us.
Otherwise, who will give us our 2.0 EX Primal quests? :p

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You will go to him asking for your next extreme primal quest to which he will be like

Urianger- "fool! The next extreme primal is me!!! (turn on Ascian theme song)"
you- huh ok let me que up (goes to the dungeon finder and ques up for Urianger fight"
(15 mins later)
you- soooooo nice weather we're having huh?

I still think Urianger is on our side, and I also think Elidibus might also be on our side as well.

I think Unukalhai... might either be Elidibus in disguise or another White Ascian.

http://puu.sh/kC5gk/c2e84fd314.png

The Key lies in Unukalhai's name and Elidibus from FF tactics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_Serpentis

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Alpha Serpentis (α Serpentis, α Ser) is a double star in the head (Serpens Caput) of the equatorial constellation Serpens. It has the traditional name Unukalhai

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http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Elidibus_(Tactics)

This is all my dumb speculation though XD

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Originally Posted by Vejjiegirl

I still think Urianger is on our side, and I also think Elidibus might also be on our side as well.

I think Unukalhai... might either be Elidibus in disguise or another White Ascian.

http://puu.sh/kC5gk/c2e84fd314.png

The Key lies in Unukalhai's name and Elidibus from FF tactics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_Serpentis



http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Elidibus_(Tactics)

This is all my dumb speculation though XD

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This and the Zodiac thing (and certain Starglobes) has me think (and hope) that the Thanavarians might had aped the RL Western Constellations

on topic I think Unukalhai was a sevant of one of the Ascians but I have yet to meet them yet.

Now we're getting on the right track. I was about to post the same thing. Unukalhai means great serpent, and Zodiark is a serpent: "he represents the Zodiac sign of Ophiuchus, the Serpent Holder. Zodiark is indeed a serpent, in the form that Ophiuchus is most commonly associated with, a snake." (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Zodiark)

Both Unukalhai and Elidibus wear white robes, and Elidibus drops a serpent gem in one of the previous FFs.

One or both are some form of Zodark incarnate or are somehow closer to him.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

I don't think he will.

I really do think Elidibus intended for you to kill Lahabrea with it, not necessarily Igeyorhm. I think he believed Igeyorhm could have been reeled in, so to speak, given she had more of a passive personality than Nabriales and Lahabrea, if the more direct and brash members of her little group were gone.

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That doesn't really compute imo. We know where Urianger's latest Auracite is from, he told us that it's a leftover from Moenbryda. Besides, would an Ascian honestly and willingly go anywhere near an Auracite after seeing what we've used it for? Either way, I don't think Elidibus ever meant for Lahabrea to die, but one way or another, he seems to have very little feelings on the subject.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

But he could easily blame that on the WoL/Scions for putting her in that situation and failing to protect her. If so, Elidibus's secret truth could easily at least put him against us, if not necessarily on the Ascians' side.

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He doesn't. If you go talk to him in the Waking Sands after the 2.55 endgame cutscenes, he says something to the effect that he wants to protect the others. You can see the exact quote here. This is also why I don't think Urianger is someone who could ever betray us. His convictions are too strong, just like the other Scions', that they'd all risk everything to protect one another.

My money is on yes.

But only for him to pull the whole double agent thing and reveal that he betrayed us to dismantle and ruin the plans of the Ascians from the inside.

So he will always be on our side, but he will do what he must to ensure victory.

So basically what I said many posts back.

Come to think of it, that double agent idea would sound like a quick explanation to shut up even the slightest response on our end. In fact, what would make our characters shake off the straight face and put the foot down on the actions of our allies? Do we even have a line for them to cross that wouldn't be met with easy forgiveness?

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Come to think of it, that double agent idea would sound like a quick explanation to shut up even the slightest response on our end. In fact, what would make our characters shake off the straight face and put the foot down on the actions of our allies? Do we even have a line for them to cross that wouldn't be met with easy forgiveness?

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That's a good question. Honestly, I think that we view them as family, and if not that, then at least co-workers of whom we've grown very fond. That is both my opinion and my impression based on your PC's reactions to them. I mean seriously, we do them personal favors, we act as their confidants (and they act as ours), we joke around with them (or at least are around as they joke around with us and among themselves around us), we celebrate our victories with them, we protect and save them, we stand together with them. Generally speaking, if we have our own opinions, we don't contradict them and don't tend to speak up unless someone asks us to or, like Ysayle and Raubahn, evokes strong reactions in us. Heck, you could argue that what happened with Thancred and Lahabrea was seriously destructive to the Scions, but in the end we all put Thancred's (physical and mental) well-being as our main concern and we endured, so to speak.

So, to answer your question, outside of open, complete, willful and irredeemable betrayal, I think we're not going to see anything they do as unforgivable. In other words, as long as they show no signs of what we consider as evil (destructive or harmful mindsets completely opposite to ours and unwilling to budge), we will more than likely always forgive them and, what's more, encourage them.

My memory may be hazy here, but didn't we sort of put our foot down with Ysayle and Estinien when they were bickering, while we were traveling with Alphinaud? I know that he put his foot down in that situation, but I think we agreed with him, right?

While it's an easy thing to presume thanks to the fact he was seen entreating Elidibus, the simple fact of the matter is that Urianger can never betray us for one reason.

He hands out the 2.x EX primal quests, and thus must always be available. They could transfer the quests to another NPC, but this would take more effort than it's worth. This grants Urianger unbreakable plot armor and is also why he lingers in the Waking Sands even after the Scions move to the Rising Stones during 2.2.

This could change for 4.0 if they restructure the world and make the 2.0 - 3.x narrative unnecessary for doing 4.0, but as it stands Urianger is perfectly safe forever.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

While it's an easy thing to presume thanks to the fact he was seen entreating Elidibus, the simple fact of the matter is that Urianger can never betray us for one reason.

He hands out the 2.x EX primal quests, and thus must always be available. They could transfer the quests to another NPC, but this would take more effort than it's worth. This grants Urianger unbreakable plot armor and is also why he lingers in the Waking Sands even after the Scions move to the Rising Stones during 2.2.

This could change for 4.0 if they restructure the world and make the 2.0 - 3.x narrative unnecessary for doing 4.0, but as it stands Urianger is perfectly safe forever.

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They could gate some point of the story behind the Exteme 2.x primals (at a point where they can be soloed with unsynched) so you never know...