Pipe Dreams: Red Mage the melee DPS

By now most people know how I feel about the topic of Red Mage. While I usually end up inserting my ideas in existing threads, I figured I should make a proper thread dedicated to this idea

Red Mage

Cross-classes: CNJ (Stoneskin, Cure, Raise, Protect), THM (Swiftcast, Surecast, Blizzard II, Sleep)

Abilities

01 Quick Thrust - Delivers an attack with a potency of 140.
02 Principle of Defense - Increase parry rate by 20% and evasion rate by 10%. Duration: 10s. Cooldown: 90s.
04 Stocatta - Delivers an attack with a potency of 100. Combo action: Quick Thrust. Combo potency: 220.
06 Burn - Deals fire damage with a potency of 250. Range: 10y. Cast time: 3s. Shares a cooldown with Frost and Shock.
08 Enfire - Causes auto-attacks and weaponskills to deal additional fire damage with a potency of 60. Effect ends upon reuse. Cannot be used with other sword enchantments.
10 Froissement - Delivers an attack with a potency of 80. Additional effect: Pacification for 3s. Cooldown: 45s.
12 Keen Eye - Increases the critical chance of the next two attacks by 100/50%. Cooldown: 90s.
15 Soul Thrust - Delivers an attack with a potency of 100. Combo action: Quick Thrust. Combo potency: 220. Additional effect: Absorbs damage as MP.
18 Frost - Deals ice damage with a potency of 40. Additional effect: Slow +20% for 20s. Range: 10y. Cast time: 3s. Shares a cooldown with Burn and Shock.
22 Enblizzard - Causes auto-attacks and weaponskills to deal additional ice damage with a potency of 60. Effect ends upon reuse. Cannot be used with other sword enchantments.
26 Iron Thorn - Delivers an attack with a potency of 100. Combo potency: 260. Additional effect: Increases damage target takes from your magic attacks by 5% for 30s.
30 Chant - Sacrifice HP to heal target ally for 200% of the amount sacrificed. Cast time: 4s.
34 Shock - Deals lightning damage with a potency of 40. Additional effect: lightning damage over time with a potency of 30 for 30s. Range: 10y. Cast time: 3s. Shares a cooldown with Burn and Frost.
38 Enthunder - Causes auto-attacks and weaponskills to deal additional lightning damage with a potency of 60. Effect ends upon reuse. Cannot be used with other sword enchantments.
42 Refresh - Restores MP for 30 seconds. Cooldown: 120s.
46 Circle Blade - Delivers an attack with a potency of 100 to all nearby enemies.
50 Requiescat - Delivers an attack with a potency of 100. Combo action: Soul Thrust. Combo potency: 210. Combo effect: Reduces target's piercing resistance by 10% for 20s.

Traits

08 Enhanced Dexterity
14 Combat Cast - Your auto-attacks and weapon skills have a 20% chance to make the next spell instant cast and cost 50% less MP.
16 Enhanced Dexterity II
20 Battle Mage - Increases magic potency by 10% of your attack power.
24 Mastery of Defense - Principle of Defense now increases parry rate by 30% and evasion rate by 15%.
28 Fast Cast - Increases spell casting speed by 20% of your skill speed.
32 Enhanced Dexterity III
36 Battle Mage II - Increases magic potency by an additional 10% of your attack power.
40 Enhanced Froissement - Froissement now also inflicts target with Silence for 3s.
44 Keener Eye - Keen Eye now increases the critical chance of the next three attacks by 100/75/50%.
48 Enhanced Refresh - When used on yourself, Refresh also restores TP.

Quested Abilities

30 Manablast - Consumes active sword enchant. Effect is determined by the active sword enchantment. Cooldown: 45s.
--Enfire: Blinds target for 15s.
--Enblizzard: Binds target for 10s.
--Enthunder: Stuns target for 4s.
35 Coup de Grace - Delivers an attack with a potency of 200. Can only be used on targets below 20% HP. Cooldown: 45s.
40 Temper - Increases damage dealt by 20%. Duration: 30s. Cooldown: 90s.
45 Phalanx - Reduces damage taken by target party member by 25%. Duration: 10s. Cooldown: 120s.
50 Double - Doubles the cost of the next spell or weapon skill, causing it to happen twice in a row. Cooldown: 90s.
52 Enfeeble - Increases damage target takes from critical hits by 15% and increases target's chances of receiving critical damage by 10%. Duration: 10s. Cooldown 240s.
54 Spellblade - Consumes active sword enchantment to deliver fire/ice/lightning damage with a potency of 300. Cooldown: 30s. Shares a cooldown with Magic Burst.
56 Contagion Transfer - Absorb one negative effect from target ally. Additional effect: Reduces the duration and potency of the absorbed negative effect by 30%. Cooldown: 150s.
58 Magic Burst - Consumes active sword enchantment. Effect is determined by the enchant consumed. Cooldown: 30s. Shares a cooldown with Spellblade.
--Enfire: Deals fire damage with a potency of 120 to nearby enemies.
--Enblizzard: Afflicts nearby enemies with +20% Slow for 20s.
--Enthunder: Deals lightning damage over time with a potency of 30 for 30s to nearby enemies.
60 Triple - Triples the cost of the next spell or weapon skill, causing it to happen thrice in a row. Cooldown: 180s.

Lv3 Limit Break - Chant du Cygne: The RDM's rapier glows with magic, followed by the RDM making three wide cuts on the enemy (each cut having particle effects to show alignment to fire, ice and thunder) in a Z-shape. The cuts glow and explode. Melee limit break.

The Questline (WARNING: Fanfiction advisory is in effect)

The Red Mage questline would involve either a focus on the three disciplines that make up the RDM (sword, attack magic, heal/support magic), or their role in the world. I originally wanted them as a sort of force that kept an eye on Halone inquisitors on behalf of the Holy See, investigating claims of wrongdoing and abuse of power, followed by them judging and executing said corrupt inquisitors. Sort of like a department of internal affairs that makes sure inner wrong-doing is punished accordingly. Part of this was given to DRK, so I can't use it anymore. Or perhaps the Holy See would bring back the Red Mage to show they have an answer to apostates like Dark Knights.

Assuming we go with the latter, the 30-50 RDM story would revolve around training you while witnessing the reestablishment of the RDM order. Maybe deal with someone who is trying to stop the reemergence of the order because it's not convenient to them (yes, I know MCH's quesline is built around this theme), or perhaps unearthing why the RDM order was dissolved in the first place.

The 52-60 questline would have you on the field dealing with rumors of wrong-doing. You'd also butt heads with a dark knight trainee that is convinced all affiliates of the church are corrupt and never up to any good.

30 The Red-Hatted League
35 Learning the talk
40 Learning the walk
45 Of hats and rapiers
50 Three become one
52 A Scandal in Coerthas
54 Between two swords
56 A puzzle in pieces
58 Signs point to...
60 Foible of the just

Achievements
It's gotta be the hat I-IV- Achieve red mage level 30/40/50/60
A Study in Crimson I - Complete the red mage job quest "Three become one"
A Study in Crimson II - Complete the red mage job quest "Foible of the just"

Notes

- As always, effects, potencies and durations are negotiable.
- The concept behind this RDM is a magic swordsman, but the key element of the job in this suggestion is utility.
- Accentuating the element of utility, this RDM can interrupt both melee and magic attacks (pacification and silence from Froissement), can Stun, bind and slow a target.
- The two melee combos that make up this gameplay model are Quick Thrust => Stoccatta => Iron Thorn (damage and +magic damage) and Quick Thrust => Soul Thrust => Requiescat (piercing debuff). The rest of the time would be devoted to keeping DoTs (Shock) up along with weaving in Combat Cast procs as needed. Utility spells and abilities/cooldowns to enhance damage (Double, Triple, Spellblade) would also be part of this job's gameplay.
- Combat Cast affects all spells, both native and cross-classed. So yes, this does affect Sleep, Cure, Stoneskin and Raise in addition to Chant and Burn/Frost/Shock.
- This being said, I know this has a low chance of implementation because the gameplay is a lot more simple than NIN or DRG or MNK. I do like simple gameplay, though I get the developers don't agree with me on that.
- Haven't decided on MP costs, but I do believe the job's native spells should be expensive (probably a little less than what Clemency costs PLDs) to encourage use of procs while keeping hard-casting magic as an option against ranged enemies.
- Battle Mage's potency boost goes for both Magic Attack Potency and Healing Magic Potency. The latter would be beneficial for not only Chant (RDM's most potent heal) but also Cure cross-classed from WHM. Due to lower potency a RDM's Cure would obviously be weaker than a WHM's, but be stronger than one cast by a PLD.
- Contagion Transfer is a last-minute addition that would prove useful in certain situations, and certainly more useful than Warden's Paean.
- Enfeeble is where you'd see a sort of symbiosis between BRD, RDM and DRG. Battle Litany, RDM's own Keen Eye cooldown, Enfeeble, DRG's piercing debuff, and BRD's own reliance on crits.
- This all said, RDM's weakness is it's lack of AoE. You don't have actual AoE until 46 when you get Circle Blade.
- Refresh is designed mostly to be used on yourself, as it supplements MP recovery from Soul Thrust. TP recovery from Refresh does play into this, but the ability can be used on party members to regen their MP. It's just more beneficial to use it on yourself.
- The sword enchantments have gone through numerous iterations, and in this case are basically damage boosts to your auto attacks and weaponskills. While Spellblade and Magic Burst consume your enchant to deal damage, Manablast is strictly for utility and nothind more. The long cooldown is intended to make this a situational ability and allow the RDM to plan ahead.
- To those curious, this job should be doing NIN-level DPS.

Questions, comments and so on are welcome.

These are all my own opinions, so take what I say with a grain of salt, as I read over everything that was posted and giving you constructive feedback. I will say I like your post, and I like your ideas very much.

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- The concept behind this RDM is a magic swordsman, but the key element of the job in this suggestion is utility.

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I think what your suggesting has -too much- utility

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- This being said, I know this has a low chance of implementation because the gameplay is a lot more simple than NIN or DRG or MNK. I do like simple gameplay, though I get the developers don't agree with me on that.

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Dragoon is pretty simple in terms of how its played, don't let the illusion that other jobs are more complex change how you feel Red Mage could be.

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- To those curious, this job should be doing NIN-level DPS.

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I think thats to much power for the utility it could possibly have. I'd say more akin to a bard, since they'd be more of a support role, rather than a pure dps.

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Cross-classes: CNJ (Stoneskin, Cure, Raise, Protect), THM (Swiftcast, Surecast, Blizzard II, Sleep)

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While I can see why you would want CNJ and THM to be its crossclass skills, I'd say unless they get some kind of weird potency change because they are RDM, CNJ just isn't good for them. Protect and Stoneskin would be great, but Raise would be worthless without a trait to battle raise. ACN over CNJ might be a better choice, as you'd be able to make use of Virus, eye for an eye, ruin (which could potetially, be useful with your double and triple), as well as Ressurection, and physick. This would only add to the classes utility overall. This contradicts what I said about to much utility, but if the dps were lowered overall, this would be awesome to have.

First I wanted to say I thank you for taking the time to comment on this idea.

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Originally Posted by Nyghtmarerobu

I think what your suggesting has -too much- utility

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I agree that this has a lot of utility. I guess it's the result of trying to match the 18-ability mold while keeping abilities that are the same thing with different colors to a minimum. Realistically speaking, a DPS with utility doesn't need a ton of abilities to function, but since every job has to have 18 abilities on top of now 10 job abilities...

This said, most boss mobs are immune to Slow, Weight, Bind and Blind, and I would make them immune to Paralyze. Granted, this would still make RDM really strong in PvP before even introducing the PvP abilities and be a boon in dungeon runs (RDM paralyzing something like the Wamouras in Neverreap). It'd also be the only job that has a stun on a 45 second cooldown (more than double the CD of most jobs with stuns and requiring a stance change to do so). In the end, the main utility I was aiming for was Froissement, Phalanx, and Enfeeble as the reasons to have a RDM around. Off-heals as a nice bonus but at the same level of usability as Clemency (or probably more useful between Fast Cast and the fact its easier to use when you're not getting hit in the face by the mob).

For now I've done a revision that removes Paralyze and Weight, turning Burn/Frost/Shock into burst damage/Slow debuff/DoT respectively. To try to create a relationship similar to WAR and NIN, Requiescat now has a piercing debuff and Iron Thorn increases damage the mob takes from the RDM's magic attacks (enspell effects, Burn, Shock, Magic Burst and Spellblade), so no more Foe Requiem knock-off either.

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I think thats to much power for the utility it could possibly have. I'd say more akin to a bard, since they'd be more of a support role, rather than a pure dps.

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That invites too many problems to count, so I'd be more willing to remove the utility over nerfing the DPS.

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While I can see why you would want CNJ and THM to be its crossclass skills, I'd say unless they get some kind of weird potency change because they are RDM, CNJ just isn't good for them. Protect and Stoneskin would be great, but Raise would be worthless without a trait to battle raise.

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This is why I added the battlemage traits, though I guess those need to be made stronger. The idea is that since RDM scales with DEX (which directly influences attack power), you have a stat conversion trait that boosts magic attack and healing potency without having to gear for INT or MND (since that would dilute the stats on gear). This way spells become more powerful on RDM without matching the strength of spells cast by their parent classes.

I've never been keen on handing out battle raises, so RDM not having access to one is intended. It's also for the sake of thematics, since the traditional RDM borrows from WHM and BLM, much like this RDM can borrow from their analogues, CNJ and THM. That and between Refresh and using Soul Thrust to recover MP, battle rezzes are not as big an opportunity cost for a RDM compared to a WHM, SCH, AST or SMN.

This is just a general comment, and I will admit that I haven't played many Final Fantasy games so I don't know the intricacies of prior RDMs, but I get the feeling that solely using the Ice/Fire/Lightning template draws too heavily from the Thaumaturge.

If you ask me, if RDM is traditionally taken from the combination of WHM and BLM, and each has their elemental attunements to three of the six elements, the Red Mage should demonstrate their mastery over all elements and the sword by being able to imbue their rapier to any one of the chosen elements at any one given time (Enaero, Enstone, Enwater, Enfire, Enthunder, Enfrost) and thus having weaponskills that differ based on the imbued element.

This would also allow SE to reintroduce the elemental wheel to some minor effect, and would give more of a spotlight on the sword-based weapon skills and utility of the RDM.

In regards to renaming some elements, I'd consider changing "Quick Thrust" to "Rapid Jab" to differentiate from the Lancer's thrust movements, changing Keen Eye and Keener Eye to Vigilance and Surveillance respectively (if they're not previously used) to steer away from Keen Flurry and Hawk's Eye, and it may be worth considering altering Refresh to "Fortify" as Refresh itself is currently an effect, not a skill. You could make the "below 20%" move be named Requiescat instead of Coup de Grace, and changing the current Requiescat to Denouement/Coup de Grace in its place. Soul Thrust could instead be named Soul Jab/Needle, Circle Blade could be Arc Swipe, and I was considering that Iron Thorn could have a Bleed debuff on mobs, as it's not a debuff we can apply as players, merely receive.

I was also thinking that for traits that increase spell speed and attack power, they could use the names of classical music terms, as a rapier is somewhat similar to a conductor's baton thematically (at least in my head), so the attack power could be Fermata, and the spell speed Allegro.

And finally, in regards to the quested abilities, I'd change the name of Contagion Transfer to Siphon, make Double do a double potency hit for 150% of the cost of an ability, and Triple do a triple potency hit for 200-250% of an ability's cost, and switch the Magic in Magic Burst for Phase Burst.

Couple suggestions

Make Refresh castable on self-only and probably change the name(Regain maybe?). Every other caster is able to activate their own MP recovery skill(Blizzards, Luminiferous Aether, Aetherflow/Energy Drain, Shroud of Saints), then there's BRD/MCH with their MP recovery abilities, so RDM doesn't need someone to be demanding their MP recovery skill.

Double/Triple: costs 175-200%/250-300% to do 2x/3x damage

More fencing-styled names for the sword skills.

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Originally Posted by MaethusXion

Make Refresh castable on self-only and probably change the name(Regain maybe?). Every other caster is able to activate their own MP recovery skill(Blizzards, Luminiferous Aether, Aetherflow/Energy Drain, Shroud of Saints), then there's BRD/MCH with their MP recovery abilities, so RDM doesn't need someone to be demanding their MP recovery skill.

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While I agree, I added a targetable version of Refresh because I'm anticipating the devs giving RDM that if they were to implement it. Them giving NIN Goad was a surprise, and if anything it makes me think RDM would get the MP equivalent. I guess I could reduce the cooldown and make it self-only. I'd definitely get some catharsis out of that, since I hated to see the job being a refresh bot in FFXI.

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Originally Posted by MaethusXion

Double/Triple: costs 175-200%/250-300% to do 2x/3x damage

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Originally Posted by Delphor

make Double do a double potency hit for 150% of the cost of an ability, and Triple do a triple potency hit for 200-250% of an ability's cost

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The funny thing about your comments on that is that one of my earlier RDM drafts had Double designed as you guys say. Double damage/potency for double the cost. My reasoning was that it wouldn't be mechanically possible to have spells process multiple times based off of one action. Then the devs went and proved me wrong when they implemented the Nabriales fight (the boss in Chrysalis), where we see that Double and Triple are actually quite possible. This also should somewhat satisfy the people who wanted RDM to have something akin to Double Cast from other FF games.

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Originally Posted by Delphor

This is just a general comment, and I will admit that I haven't played many Final Fantasy games so I don't know the intricacies of prior RDMs, but I get the feeling that solely using the Ice/Fire/Lightning template draws too heavily from the Thaumaturge.

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Much like THM/BLM, the reason I gave RDM three elements was to mimic how it was in the original Final Fantasy. BLM there had access to Fire, Blizzard and Thunder, and incidentally RDM had access to the same. The main thing RDM draws from WHM is actually stuff like Protect, Cure and so on.

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If you ask me, if RDM is traditionally taken from the combination of WHM and BLM, and each has their elemental attunements to three of the six elements, the Red Mage should demonstrate their mastery over all elements and the sword by being able to imbue their rapier to any one of the chosen elements at any one given time (Enaero, Enstone, Enwater, Enfire, Enthunder, Enfrost) and thus having weaponskills that differ based on the imbued element.

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Ideally this would be the way to go. The problem is that you're giving up three ability slots out of the 18 required for each job, and you're creating a different type of ability bloat (abilities that do the same thing). Don't get me wrong, because I'd love to be able to let RDMs enchant their swords with whatever element they want, but I was trying to work within the design the devs seem to be using.

Wonderfully thought through!
Kudos to you sir!
Just the thought of RDM being implemented in this fashion gives me the butterflies.. ;)

Let us cross our fingers and hope the Twelve will heed your words!!

Black Mage- DPS
White Mage-Healer
Red Mage- Tank


Logic: There's really only one role that can both DPS, support themselves with heals, and fight close range, and that role is Tank (think PLD has Clemency and uses a sword, DRK has Blood Weapon and magic alongside a melee weapon, WAR can self heal with one of their combos).

Red Mage would more likely be a Tank and use Duelist/Fencer abilities imbued with elemental magic as their style. Also remember that RDM most likely will appear alongside Samurai in 4.0 (been referenced and talked about already), and I doubt they would release 2 DPS jobs in the same expansion (also: Yoshi P guaranteed SAM would not be a Tank...which also makes RDM more likely to be a tank).

As Tanks can DPS somewhat, and RDM never ever being a melee specialist, but proficient at 'dueling/fencing' and having intermediate level heals/nukes, Tank is really the most obvious role they would fill. They can borrow some of Rune Fencer's skills and spells from FFXI but give them a fencing rapier and a small shield. Imbue their sword with aether for various effects like how NIN imbues their weapons with various venoms for effects. Skills like Parry/Inquartata/Riposte/Lunge etc. Toss in classic RDM spells (which already exist in the game btw: Haste/Enfire/Blaze Spike/Enthunder/Paralyze/Poison/Blind etc).

RDM could lore-wise use Conjury, swordsmanship and Thurmatugy but focus the Aether on their sword instead of a staff/rod. Maybe instead of insta-heals. RDM in Final Fantasy Dimensions had "Aspir Blade" and "Cure Blade", throw these into one of RDM's enmity combos would be similar to Riot Blade damage+MP restore, or damage + 50% HP back restore etc. Level 50 ability could be Dualcast, which would be similar to NIN's Duality or SCH's Emergency Tactics, doubles the effect of the next ability.

Also, while Chant du Cygne is badass, I would want that to be their level 60 DPS combo finisher like Royal Authority is. If they aren't a tank and DO become a melee DPS, their level 3 should be this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs5gALlC7nc

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Logic: There's really only one role that can both DPS, support themselves with heals, and fight close range, and that role is Tank

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Healers both DPS, support with heals, and fight far range. Tweak the DPS to melee and it would suit RDM. Tweak the ratio of DPS to Heals and DPS would suit RDM. Tanking doesn't really inherently suit RDM alone. If it was a tank, it'd be at SE's whims.

It's a fun mechanic, setting up so that a spell combos off a melee attack and I think that concept works really well with RDM.

I do want to confirm if you intended for enfire, enblizzard, and enthunder to only affect your Manablast ability though.

Remember that enemies do not have actual elemental resistances/vulnerabilities so the type of magic damage does not matter. Everything is magic damage. The only difference is potency between the various elements (which is why BLM will cast Fire on Ifrit and Blizzard on Shiva).

It affects Manablast but every other quest ability is just has no difference whether its fire, ice, or thunder damage. The way you worded abilities like Magic Burst makes me think you wanted it to do more than just magic damage because you specify elements.

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Originally Posted by Anova

I do want to confirm if you intended for enfire, enblizzard, and enthunder to only affect your Manablast ability though.

Remember that enemies do not have actual elemental resistances/vulnerabilities so the type of magic damage does not matter. Everything is magic damage. The only difference is potency between the various elements (which is why BLM will cast Fire on Ifrit and Blizzard on Shiva).

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This is correct, and I am aware of this.

Limiting RDM to one element is going to annoy someone (me if the element is not fire, others if the element is not ice or thunder), so I did try to add something by way of options. Magic Burst is a tough one because there's only so many ways to implement this type of mechanic without creating a weird sort of bloat, which is why in the end I decided to turn it into a way to deal AoE damage. Originally it was going to be something like an AoE version of Manablast or Burn/Frost/Shock depending on the enchant consumed. So Magic Burst was originally supposed to look something like this:

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58 Magic Burst - Consumes active sword enchantment. Effect is determined by the enchant consumed. Cooldown: 30s. Shares a cooldown with Spellblade.
--Enfire: Deals fire damage with a potency of 150 to nearby enemies.
--Enblizzard: Afflicts nearby enemies with +20% Slow for 20s.
--Enthunder: Deals lightning damage over time with a potency of 30 for 30s.

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I'm not keen on giving RDM AoE bind (since it can cross-class Blizzard II). Same thing with giving RDM an AoE stun (though I admit it'd be handy in emergencies). I also would nerf the potency, since Enfire MB would still be weaker than Fire II in Astral Fire III (100 potency + 87%).

Spellblade was also going to be designed around unique effects determined by the consumed enchant, but by then I was running out of ideas. >.>;;

Also, I noticed that melee attacks tend to have combos while magic have procs. I'm just wondering if you ever considered playing with those two systems to capture the essence of a spellblade.

For example, a buff that lasts xx seconds and triggers a proc at xx% chance when the RDM uses an attack skill. That proc removes the cast time and cooldown/gcd on the next spell cast, effectively turning it into a free spell and additional dps or utility (heals).

It's just another take on a mechanic to capture that feel of combining spells and swords, but using magic instead of melee mechanics.

Very similar to a build I've been working on. I use stacks for spellblade that are usable like aetherflow abilities smn use (Doublecast, Aetheric Discharge, and Circle Blade), and have certain skills shift the Spellblade element between ice, fire, and thunder. Traits make each element give the rdm a buff. Spellblade gives a small damage boost. Fire = temper (more damage boost), ice = fast cast (15%), thunder dot ticks proc bonus spellblade stacks with proc chance doubled when spellblade element is thunder. I give it brd-like support by discharging it's spellblade as a 15s party buff. I also combo melee skills and spells, combo bonus being +30% potency for fires and half cast time, and instant/front loaded dot (like thundercloud) for thunder.

There's kind of no way around making it supporty since it has a diverse toolkit, which means limiting its overall dps a little.

I opt for main stat int, since enchanted sword makes that an easy logic leap. It then uses caster accessories and has its own left side armor which is like the reverse of drg, High mdef, medium physical defense. Leveling it uses general DoM gear. I also built refresh like Goad, and its a cooldown so it can't be used frequently. I sacrificed the whm side of things, giving rdm only regen + cnj cross class spells. But I traited it to use int for healing potency (lvl 24) and have battle raise (lvl 48). I was contemplating Triple as a 61+ skill, but it'd apply multiple dots on a 60s cooldown instead of being the triple version of doublecast. Lvl 60 skill is Chainspell which for 10s makes spell GCD be 1s and gives 5 stacks of swiftcast. Ends when all stacks are used or 10s is up.

There's no ice combo. I gave rdm a casting stance (cold-blooded) that let's them spam blizzard like a blm does fire, for about 10% less damage/spell (but they cast faster in spellblade ice anyway). It's their recovery mode (since they also make use of tier II astral/umbral) and disables auto-attack and gives weaponskills a cast time similar to brd/mcn stances. Its basically an option to be a ranged caster instead of melee. Canceled by reuse or any fire skill/spell. And otherwise they have two combos to choose between, single target & supporty thunder combo, or high damage and resource consumption fire combo. Fire combo's 2nd hit is aoe, and can close with fire or fire II, making it viable for single target or aoe rotations.


Skill speed/spell speed is the issue I'm having trouble with. How to unify them as one stat while preventing materia abuse?

Sry for deleted posts below. Tablet browser wouldn't let me edit my posts, and needed to get around 1k char limit when I posted originally.

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Originally Posted by Madrone

Skill speed/spell speed is the issue I'm having trouble with. How to unify them as one stat while preventing materia abuse?

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To be honest, I don't see what's to abuse. The only classes that can actually make use of both would basically need that by default to be truly balanced (though more QoL clunk-removal than any real output improvement), which still mostly comes down to just 3-4 jobs -- PLD, DRK, BRD, and now RDM.

Though I'm more fond of the idea of a RDM having NIN-level dps when not sacrificing dps to further support, I like the, as you say, diverse toolkit it carries in your idea, and the unique left side armor seems pretty neat (though I'd hope more jobs could eventually use each, such as Blue Mage making use of RDM's and Samurai making use of DRG's). I really like the stack system for Swiftcast, etc., as an idea, but for now I still have trouble picturing how it would turn out over the course of a minute+ in combat. Not sure how I feel about the intergration of UI/AF. Not a fan of the auto-attack disable or weaponskill cast timers. (You say that this allows them a ranged caster stance, but don't mention the cast damage being boosted or the weaponskills becoming ranged?) I feel like a caster stance should rarely be optimal (though typically decent) for RDM, and shouldn't be element-locked in implemented. I don't quite understand your vision for the spell combos.

Edit: Regen may also run the same issue as Refresh in the past, requiring the RDM to break up its own flow of combat just to maintain an inferior but nontheless high (per-execute) potency heal on the tank. I think access to this should be bit more limited, so that it cannot be thoughtlessly maintained (possibly making rotations more interesting rather than just adding a GCD within them that may or may not effectively reduce buff windows). In turn, that might excuse higher overall healing potency available to RDM.
Similarly, rather than using a 3-minute CD (as per Goad), something like the above shift may serve Refresh well too. Having the ability to refresh mana in emergencies, as long as it does not overlap with the long-term niche of Bard, could enhance the RDM playstyle. It's only when it exceeds the usefulness of other activities, consistently, that it pigeonholes the job.

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Originally Posted by Anova

Also, I noticed that melee attacks tend to have combos while magic have procs. I'm just wondering if you ever considered playing with those two systems to capture the essence of a spellblade.

For example, a buff that lasts xx seconds and triggers a proc at xx% chance when the RDM uses an attack skill. That proc removes the cast time and cooldown/gcd on the next spell cast, effectively turning it into a free spell and additional dps or utility (heals).

It's just another take on a mechanic to capture that feel of combining spells and swords, but using magic instead of melee mechanics.

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Ah, you mean the old Art of War mechanic. I agree that this would be a good mechanic for RDM, and under other circumstances would have included it. I could probably tweak the ability spread and make it possible with this build, too. I just thought people would get more of a kick out of comboing magic and spells.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

To be honest, I don't see what's to abuse. The only classes that can actually make use of both would basically need that by default to be truly balanced (though more QoL clunk-removal than any real output improvement), which still mostly comes down to just 3-4 jobs -- PLD, DRK, BRD, and now RDM.

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I think Madrone means the fact RDM would require both to do its thing. Assuming you add no conversion traits, you'd need to meld one or the other on accessories.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I think Madrone means the fact RDM would require both to do its thing. Assuming you add no conversion traits, you'd need to meld one or the other on accessories.

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Ahh, I see. I just figured we'd combine both types into a single stat, as it applies to gear, i.e. Quickstrike materia.

@Shurrikhan

Hard to summarize the whole build in a short post. I'll try to add some depth on things that were unclear or missing. And I hope the OP sees this as less of a hi-jack, and more as passionate collaboration about the design complexities of a melee/caster like RDM, and that I just genuinely want to share some of my ideas.

My potency numbers are estimates and probably wind up doing OP damage when DoT and auto-attacks factor in... On the other hand, I did plan to cripple RDM dps by giving it weapon damage ratings 10% lower for both magic and physical damage than standard melee and mage jobs. So an i200 weapon should be 74/102 physical/magical damage, but RDM's i200 weapon damage would be 67/92.

UI/AF- These cap at level 2. Get Astral II at lvl 20, get Umbral II at lvl 40. Many damage boosts come into play which boost Fire/Ice spells. All SpellBlade elements give 10-20% (level/traits) melee damage boost, SpellBlade Fire gives 30% after a trait at level 44. SpellBlade's damage bonus starts to apply to same-element spells when certain traits are acquired. The end result once you have all the traits is that (with AF II and SpellBlade Fire) Fire spells have an overall damage boost the same as BLM's AF III (+~75%), and Ice spells have an overall damage boost (when Cold-Blooded/UI II and SpellBlade Ice) of ~60%, plus SpellBlade Ice gives Fast Cast +10%. Thunder Spells will have +20% damage when cast with SpellBlade Thunder active. This is 2.0 BLM rotation damage level since RDM's lack the BLM's good stuff, but is mandatory to make decent use of these kind of spells. RDM make up dps ground with 2 strong DoT's, auto-attacking, and Doublecasting combo closer spells.

Ok, so the casting stance is a lot like Wanderer's Minuet and Gauss Barrel, like a Transpose on steroids, and can feel like it has a little dash of Enochian. However, even though I hate those caster stances for ranged physical jobs, I feel like it will actually work and feel right for RDM.

Casting stance is called Cold-Blooded, and its a level 30 ability, with short cast time. It has a small mp cost, so like a BLM you could spend your mp too low to use it if you're not careful. It gives Umbral Ice I and switches spellblade's element to ice- so it aligns you into your double ice buff state. It enhances Umbral Ice to give Ice spells the same damage boost that Fire spells get from Astral Fire (10% for I, 32% for II), and their mp cost increases (mostly moot since UI mp recovery). RDM gets an Ice-based DoT spell at lvl 34, Frost. It lasts 30s and is fairly weak for a DoT, 250 total potency. But its made quite powerful by the ice spell damage boost. You'll always want to cast Frost in Cold-Blooded with 2 stacks of Umbral Ice, which pushes its total damage up effectively to 400 potency. This means you'll want to rotate to back to Cold-Blooded/Ice phase as close to 30s after casting Frost as you can when fighting a target that takes awhile to kill. You lose Cold-Blooded if you lose Umbral Ice or change SpellBlade's element to something other than Ice, so if you want to stay in Cold-Blooded to spam Blizzard non-stop, it has a little bit of Enochian-like feel because you can't let Umbral Ice drop. It has a 15s cooldown so if you're wanting to Blizzard/Frost/Thunder stuff to death, you won't have to worry about severe consequences if it drops. If you care about doing great damage and offering all of your utility, you'll be popping out of Cold-Blooded as soon as you've gotten your mp back and cast Frost.

Cold-Blooded penalizes melee quite heavily; it disables auto-attacks and gives weaponskills a cast time. If you do Thunder combo, Fire combo, or cast a Fire spell, you'll lose SpellBlade Ice or Umbral Ice, and by extension Cold-Blooded. There are ~5 melee skills/abilities you can still use without canceling Cold-Blooded, and really only 1-2 of them would have useful utility or good damage. So when you Cold-Blooded, you pretty much switch to being Blizzard-based mini-BLM with some CNJ support spells.

Total damage bonus of +~60% is still weaker than Fire spells, but mp is limitless, and SpellBlade Ice is traited to give you Fast Cast 10%. Very late in RDM's career they'll get an AoE Ice Spell (Deep Freeze) which gets an added effect when cast immediately after a Doublecast Blizzard I/II, of +1 bonus spellblade stack... this makes Blizzard spells the only spells RDM can Doublecast for free. This is sort of a mini combo: Doublecast Blizzard (spend a stack) > Deep Freeze (get a stack) Doublecast's cooldown is still a limit of course.


Combos are hit > hit > spell. The 2nd hit is elementally charged (Burning Blade/Thunder Slash) and is the skill that's responsible for changing SpellBlade's element to Fire or Thunder. Burning Blade also grants Astral Fire I/II as its combo bonus. 2nd hits cost 140 TP and have small a cast time even though they are melee abilities. They also have a small mp cost anytime they change spellblade's element. This may seem pricey, but because RDM is drawing from 2 resource pools, one of them bottomless bc of Umbral ice, it helps balance things out.

Thunder combo is very good single target damage, and the most optimal way to deliver Thunder DoT for two reasons. At lvl 28+, the SpellBlade Thunder's damage bonus applies to Thunder spells (lvl 21-39 +15%, lvl 40+ 20%). And the Thunder combo bonus is a Thundercloud-like effect for its closing Thunder I/II spell, which is a lot of bonus damage vs just casting Thunder outside of the combo. Thunder DoT ticks can proc bonus spellblade stacks at a low 5% rate (the lvl 28 trait that adds this is called Overload), so you'll always want Thunder applied to something. This is Thunder's big benefit for you.

Late career you'd get an ability (Voltaic Arc) that can spread Thunder to nearby enemies and restart its duration (like Bane), which can help you rake in bonus stacks in AoE situations. Also, you'll get an ability (Recharge) to convert a chunk of mp into a SpellBlade stack, for out of battle use only though. Total possible SpellBlade stack usage (based on ability cooldowns) is more than triple the number of SpellBlade stacks that you get each minute, so picking up bonus stacks is always good, and you will always have to make tactical choices on how/when to spend your stacks. Forgot to mention that you get 3 stacks from using SpellBlade each minute (like Aetherflow), but your max capacity is 5. SpellBlade Thunder (and only while in Thunder) gives you access to use a long cool-down (90s) AoE damage vulnerability +5% for 15s debuff (Enervation Field) that costs a SpellBlade stack (big raid utility). Thunder combo's opening melee hit also has a chance of inflicting an attack power down debuff (similar to Eye for an Eye, -10% damage dealt for 10s). So with all of this combined, Thunder combo is more support-y than Fire combo.

Fire combo is solid damage and blows through your mp pool. The combo's 2nd hit is kind of like MCN Ricochet, doing ok damage to one target, and potentially hitting other nearby enemies with shared/divided damage. It grants max AF (II) as its combo bonus, so it is RDM's version of Fire III in that sense. You can close with either Fire or Fire II, and both will have enhanced potency when used in a combo. You pretty much just need to combo Fire once or twice, then can lay into non-combo'd Fire spells until out of mp, and your timing will line up for renewing Frost while Cold-Blooded. SpellBlade Fire gives you an alternate added effect for a 1m cooldown AoE skill, and turns it into an area DoT that inflicts magic damage taken +5%. Late career you'd get a big/slow/expensive AoE Fire spell (Detonation) that is a mp-free/half cast time proc when cast immediately following a Doublecast Fire or Fire II.

All that boils down to a modified BLM element rotation where there are combo melee hits between the spells, that enhance the spells. You don't have to stick to that rotation. There might be times you forgo DoTs or don't use Thunder combo at all, and just switch between Ice and Fire (like doing AoE on trash). There might be situations where it's safer to stay Cold-Blooded and focus on mixing support casts in with your Blizzard spam, or maybe just rotating Thunder combos and Cold-Blooded to maximize the strength of DoT's, usage of free SpellBlade abilities, and acquiring more bonus SpellBlade stacks. There is a mathematically optimal way of doing damage of course, but good luck figuring it out. RDM has the flexibility to adapt to the needs of the moment, and all elements/attack styles provide a sustained decent level of dps and their own unique utilities.

The combo bonus for a spell let's it hit much harder, basically the equivalent of the 2.0 blm rotation's procs. Fire would do 240 potency and fire II would do 130 (+75% like a AF III BLM) when closing a combo (and they cast faster in a combo to make interruption/dodging less of a hassle, but they aren't free). Thunder I/II would be like thundercloud procs, doing 295/330 plus DoT. Every 15s you could Doublecast a combo closing spell to really spike up the damage, however your stacks to power Doublecast (and other abilities) are limited to 3 per 60s, plus whatever bonus stacks you can luck into, and some of those stacks should go to 5% party-damage boosting abilities.

Some skills have slightly different effects under different spellblade elements.

There's an oGCD ability, Discharge (inspired by D&D/Final Fantasy Dimensions' Magic Missile), which consumes a SpellBlade stack (your 1st SpellBlade ability) and shoots a mp-free/instant single target nuke of your SpellBlade element. This does 140 potency when its learned at lvl 18, 170 at lvl 20-39, and 200 at lvl 40+. Astral/Coldblooded bonuses apply if SpellBlade is Fire or Ice. Because Thunder's damage bonus is weaker and its nature is to aid in getting extra SpellBlade stacks, Discharge's added effect when in SpellBlade Thunder is that it can be used without spending a SpellBlade stack. So, you'd add Discharge into any Thunder combo when its off cooldown, but be more selective about using it in SpellBlade Fire or Ice. In any case, Doublecast is better damage for combo'd Fires or Thunders once you've learned it, so the free use of Discharge in SpellBlade Thunder keeps it relevant.

Then there's Circle Blade (60s cooldown) that also consumes a spellblade stack, which does 150-300 potency AoE (based on melee damage, so Fire is just 10% stronger than ice & thunder). In SpellBlade Fire, Circle Blade damage is a 30s AoE DoT (15/20/25/30 variable potency) that also inflicts magic damage taken +5%. In the other elements, its just direct AoE damage. So whenever its off cooldown, you'd want prioritize spending a spellblade stack for Circle Blade in a Fire combo, especially in AoE situations. The variable potency on this one is fun. You charge it by pressing and holding the button and it fires when you release the button, it can charge for 1-4s and each second after the first gives it +5 more DoT potency. Animation when charging, you hold your sword skyward and it crackles with elemental energy, then its sort of like Circle of Scorn when released.


I try to work things like this in as incentives to do certain actions in certain elements, which helps ensure RDM's have reasons to keep rotating elements. But I also try to keep things simple- 2x 1, 2, 3 combos, 2 DoT's, a few special spellblade abilities, some with a unique added effect or free to use in a specific element, a few support buffs on long cooldowns, simple/weak support healing. I like to tweak skills already in the game since SE does this a lot already, and since RDM is supposed to be mix of existing jobs.

A thought occurred to me about Regen. I can't give it to RDM's unless its unstackable because in Light party content that's tuned for 1 healer, suddenly the tank can have stacked regens and the healer's job becomes way, way easier. And even in 8/24 man stuff, there'd be more possible regen-stacking than there should be. My solution is to change this to an oGCD melee skill on a 30s cooldown (Sanguine Blade) that does damage and absorbs/releases hp drained as a weak 5y AoE Cure.


There's also classic stuff like Aura, Phalanx, Regain, and Refresh all instant/single-target and on long/some shared cooldowns so you won't be saddled with too much support burden. I had to include a Convert-like move (In the Red), or you wouldn't have enough mp for an opener that includes Fire combo 1, 2 > Circle Blade > Doublecast Fire > In the Red > Chainspell Fire x5.


Regarding Speed stats, yes I meant that you'd make use of both, but shouldn't have to pay for them separately on gear stat budgets. If your left side gear gives skill speed and your right side gives spell speed, you could trait it so each speed stat gives its value to the other, essentially making them one stat. The problem is when someone melds a piece of crafted gear with both, what happens? Is it capped by one and the other's a waste? Do they double up, exceeding the usual cap on that gear? Speed's are not all that valuable to worry much over, but I still am unable to find a non-messy solution where materia is involved, that doesn't include special changes to the materia-melding interface. This is also why I made all RDM damage INT instead of INT and STR, and why I made healing potency determined by 80% of INT. Materia can mess up anything you try to do with traits to normalize multiple stats based on one.

I would prefer SE just combine the two speed stats for everyone. It would very little effect on most jobs. The other melee jobs that have spells (not including NIN)... aren't their spells instant casts anyway? More like abilities that happen to use mp? PLD is the only one I can think of, with its cross class CNJ spells.

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Originally Posted by Madrone

I would prefer SE just combine the two speed stats for everyone. It would very little effect on most jobs. The other melee jobs that have spells (not including NIN)... aren't their spells instant casts anyway? More like abilities that happen to use mp? PLD is the only one I can think of, with its cross class CNJ spells.

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Under the current design, PLD and RDM would benefit a little too much from a combined speed stat. Of course, provided they were to tune jobs to scale differently with spell speed/skill speed and how a unified stat would affect both, it might sort of work.

PS: Updated the OP again.