All i ask for ninja is 1 thing Square Enix pls!

Pls! Pls! let us weave attacks between mudras! We get 5sec to cast the next mudra, let us put that timer to use! it would also help us peeps with mudra lag. pls consider this.
Thank You ^_^

this is a bad idea because mudra cooldown currently does not start until you have used your ninjutsu.

lets say you use ten, spinning slash, chi, gust slash, jin, aeolian edge, ninjutsu. this leaves you delaying the use of your ninjutsu and effectively prolonging your cooldown, and by extension, decreasing your dps by a good bit.

if youre really having that many problems with mudra, you should just use Fuma Shuriken instead of raiton

^ this. It would be a pretty big DPS loss to delay your mudra cooldown by that much.

I think it would be better, if you can redo the inputs if you mess up instead of getting that fail rabbit.

It wouldn't be a DPS loss, geez, what the hell :/

If you can Raiton like the game is working right now without clipping then you can Raiton if the game were to work like the OP is suggesting the same way...
It would accomodate better for things like Suiton, Doton or Huton (if lost).

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

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i see where youre coming from, but it would still be a dps loss, if you can raiton without clipping at the current point in the game, then there is really no need for this change tor you. suiton is SUPPOSED to clip our gcd though. in fact, if it didnt clip, ninja would be facing even MORE tp issues than they already have to suffer through. mudra needs tweaks but this isnt the tweak it needs. the only scenario i can see this being useful

spinning slash, ten, chi, gust slash, raiton, aoelian edge
this would solve the problem of people with higher latency and create more tp issues for people with low latency, a long with increasing the cooldown of mudra by a few seconds, which is ultimately dps loss

So then mudras not being interrupted by GCDs or other actions and another TP fix idea can't exist together?

This would only be a dps increase if your Ninjutsu CD started cooling down before actually being 'used'. Otherwise the 10-21% Ninjutsu frequency loss in by delaying its release over 2 to 4.3 seconds will already mostly counter the benefits of reducing GCD loss to clipping by roughly 3-7% (depending especially on how that times out against buffs, debuffs, and CDs).

Personally I like that they have to be done in series; I just hate when I cast Suiton, see the animation despite that it never actually 'went off', follow with my next attack, and bunny it. I'd rather that actions cannot bunny mudras, but rather simply set it (so if you lag-clip your 2nd mudra with a following action it merely becomes Fuma Shuriken, not a bunny) and that Ninjutsu damage bonuses are based on when the mudra was set/completed (or else it'd always be preferable to pop IR/BFB just before releasing Raiton whereas our playstyle until then has always had us popping CDs prior to mudra use). At that point the changes would be QoL except that we can ready a Ninjutsu slightly early, allowing us later oGCD space for the next 5 seconds (actually holding it for a coming add would still be a dps loss, as Ninjutsu is not cooling down during that time, but at least accidentally popping it early wouldn't leave us standing there like any idiot until the add pops so we can Raiton it).

It would be less of a dps loss for some people because you can then weave Suiton while still keeping up your GCD rotation. For someone like me, who's latency makes it so that it takes anywhere between 3-5 seconds to cast a 3-step mudra (clipping onto 1.5-2.5 GCDs), being able to weave GCDs/oGCDs would be a boon.

I don't think Suiton is supposed to clip our GCDs either. Technically it should only be a 1.5s (perfect, would like to say impossible) to 2s (expected) mudra as the cooldown between each hand sign is 0.5s, and most NINs I know are sitting on around 2 seconds CD for their GCD.

Besides it being inefficient, I feel like it would take away from the flavor of the class if you could use mudras while using other GCD/oGCD skills.

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Originally Posted by NekoGenesis

I don't think Suiton is supposed to clip our GCDs either. Technically it should only be a 1.5s (perfect, would like to say impossible) to 2s (expected) mudra as the cooldown between each hand sign is 0.5s, and most NINs I know are sitting on around 2 seconds CD for their GCD.

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At that level of lag, it would definitely be a boon, yes. o.o

However, remember to add a final step to your mudra count; you still have to cast the Ninjutsu itself, which could have a longer animation lock that even the specified Mudra lockouts. As such, Huton/Doton/Suiton tend to be 4 mudra's worth of .5 second lockouts/animation locks + 4x whatever latency exceeds the time queue-able within each step.

Edit: also don't forget the prior animation's lock... so that's now prior animation (usually... .6s to 1.1s?) + a minimum of about 1.75s for a 3-step Mudra.

P.S. Have you tried Battleping/WTFast/Pingzapper? Though Ninja's GCD is a bit too fast to reliably double-weave any but the shortest-animation oGCDs even then, a good VPN can still make a huge difference.

Thanks Shurrikhan, I do use WTFast - but playing from Australia to an NA server is extremely painful (the 240 ping is with WTFast, I get 280-310 without it). Yep, forgot about the animation lock, so Suiton would most likely still clip 0.5s-1s of your GCD.

Part of the reason why I stopped raiding on my NIN - it just feels extremely bad that I'm constantly 50-80 DPS behind where I should be and therefore I have to force the other players on the group to pick up the slack. With fights as closely tuned as AS in terms of DPS checks, where everyone is busy doing their own thing and also trying their best without needing the added stress of compensating the laggy/inexperienced NIN (whichever one it is) made me choose to drop out of the static I was raiding with and just swap mains to DRK instead.

Wish they can fix ninjutsu somehow for people with greater latency, but I don't see it happening in the forseeable future unless they scrap the whole idea and just make the mudras straight out castable from the get-go.

The mudra should be scrapped and ninjatsu should be used directly. Ninjatsu should also have casting time in which you do the mudra animations.

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Originally Posted by Yaichiro

The mudra should be scrapped and ninjatsu should be used directly. Ninjatsu should also have casting time in which you do the mudra animations.

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I would agree with this

But I just don't have that many free key 'easy to reach' key binds anymore :( I also kind of the like the uniqueness of combining the three symbols, and the potential of messing up (yay hunting horns!)

or they can just fix the mudra lag outright. I feel like the reason why they take .5 to cast is because of the animations. They need to cut it short to just hand gestures instead of full arm swings. Moves cutting into your gcd is what ruins it for me, especially since I main mnk when I dps who has the smoothest rotation of the 3 melee dps.

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

So then mudras not being interrupted by GCDs or other actions and another TP fix idea can't exist together?

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the problem here is that youre asking to fix one problem where it will only make another worse. id prefer them to just make mudra client side and give us to changes to solve both.

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Originally Posted by NekoGenesis

It would be less of a dps loss for some people because you can then weave Suiton while still keeping up your GCD rotation. For someone like me, who's latency makes it so that it takes anywhere between 3-5 seconds to cast a 3-step mudra (clipping onto 1.5-2.5 GCDs), being able to weave GCDs/oGCDs would be a boon.

I don't think Suiton is supposed to clip our GCDs either. Technically it should only be a 1.5s (perfect, would like to say impossible) to 2s (expected) mudra as the cooldown between each hand sign is 0.5s, and most NINs I know are sitting on around 2 seconds CD for their GCD.

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the animation delay before you hit your first mudra (due to the ability you used before your first mudra) will ALWAYS leave you clipping gcd with suiton. its been the same way with three step mudra since launch, you have to account for animations

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Originally Posted by Kaisersoke

the problem here is that youre asking to fix one problem where it will only make another worse. id prefer them to just make mudra client side and give us to changes to solve both.

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Well, there is no point in arguing much about this now for a while, given that in the TGS Yoshi-P commented something about making Mudras smoother to use on patch 3.1... we'll see how that goes there...

But really, the Mudra lag and TP starvation issues are two different things.
Funnily enough, so much Mudra lag can translate into TP regen for some as well, which is where I think you are comming from, and fixing it would only result in the TP consumption increasing somewhat... maybe... BUT I bet that wasn't intented, or at least not for the 1~2 Mudra Jutsu.

Anyway, no reason for not looking of ways to fix Mudra lag and/or the TP consumption...

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

Well, there is no point in arguing much about this now for a while, given that in the TGS Yoshi-P commented something about making Mudras smoother to use on patch 3.1... we'll see how that goes there...

But really, the Mudra lag and TP starvation issues are two different things.
Funnily enough, so much Mudra lag can translate into TP regen for some as well, which is where I think you are comming from, and fixing it would only result in the TP consumption increasing somewhat... maybe... BUT I bet that wasn't intented, or at least not for the 1~2 Mudra Jutsu.

Anyway, no reason for not looking of ways to fix Mudra lag and/or the TP consumption...

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the amount of time you spend using mudra as always directly affected tp, which is why with heavensward, it became more noticeable, because we stopped using huton every three ninjutsu

And so hopefully we'll see them affecting GCDs even less so the TP problems can be more glaring so they also do something about them.

I'm not trying to weave a move between each and every mudra but I would like to be able to weave buffs and stuff non the less, nothing wrong with having the option, people that don't wanna weave can just not weave.

Not really, mudras CD is not related to weaponskills or abilities... they should be kept separated but without loss of mudra becouse we use other skill between.... kinda I use a skill and in the same time I can press mudras they dont share GCD so there should be no problems... currently is that if you start waving mudras you are stuck till you end casting and mudra lag is punishing like hell.... so it would be better if we can use normal attacks all the time without messing the mudras timers and get bunny in the end.

unfortunately, that is never how this game has worked. you have always had to deal with animation locks before you could use the next ability, like dragoons Jump, for example. your idea and this games mechanics are at an impasse

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Originally Posted by Kaisersoke

lets say you use ten, spinning slash, chi, gust slash, jin, aeolian edge, ninjutsu. this leaves you delaying the use of your ninjutsu and effectively prolonging your cooldown, and by extension, decreasing your dps by a good bit.

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I agree with your points throughout this thread, but there is one point everyone (including myself, previously) misses where weaving being allowed could actually be beneficial. As you correctly note, weaving GCDs between each is definitely a loss in DPS, but the following input chain:

Ten, Chi, Jin, Suiton (game doesn't register Suiton input), Gust, Bunny

could be improved by allowing weaving, where it would become:

Ten, Chi, Jin, Suiton (game doesn't register Suiton input), Gust, Suiton (game registers properly)

I'm too lazy to math out whether Ten+Chi, GCD, Jin+Suiton would be beneficial, or even Ten+Chi, GCD, Raiton (instinct says no, but math would be nice). But the above case is an easily demonstrable DPS increase.

I agree, but its just semantics if a proposed fix creates as much friction as it resolves.

that said, yoshi p announced in the recent live letters, that mudra will be tweaked to hopefully allow a smoother experience with less lag in the upcoming patch 3.1, slated to release early november