DA+C@S

The whole purpose of this thread is so that I get more DPS.

I mostly don't use DA+CaS mainly because 1 I don't get a MP return from DA+CaS and DA+SE then CaS I see beining more DPS in the long run.

So what would be better? I'm in Savage mostly so idealy so I do DA+CaS or just CaS on it's own?

Personnel I pref CaS on it's own, not getting MP back is the deal cutter for me.

CaS gives back almost 900 MP? That gives you a Dark Passenger or 1/2 a Dark Arts to use on Soul Eater.

Soul Eater potency with DA added is 140. Dark Passenger is 150.

Using DA on CaS nets you 350 potency.

So you're looking at roughly 70 potency on a Soul Eater from 1/2 a DA, or 150 potency from Dark Passenger (assuming 300 if you get 2 off for the same MP). A DA'd CaS is a 350 potency gain.

I don't know about you but the math seems fairly simple.

Someone can come in and do the math more in detail but basically, always use CaS under DA on a single target. AoE is more situational.

DA CaS = 350 potency gain
DA SE combo over a Delirium combo = 120 potency gain

You lose the MP you'd gain from a non-DA CaS but considering it's worth about 3X the worth of a DA SE, you should always DA CaS unless you NEED MP for something.

To elaborate on the mathies here:

I shall measure MP costs in the context of "Siphons", this being the amount of MP restored upon one use of Siphon Strike. This is also the amount of MP Carve and Spit restores when used without Dark Arts.

Dark Passenger costs 1 Siphon
Dark Arts costs 2 Siphons

If we wish to speak of efficency in terms of most potency gained per spent Siphon, we can rank various abilities as such.

Applying Dark Arts to Carve and Spit: Spend 2 Siphons to gain 350 Potency. A gain of 175 Pot/Siphon.
Using Dark Passenger on its own: Spend 1 Siphon to deal 150 Potency. A gain of 150 Pot/Siphon.
Applying Dark Arts to Dark Passenger: Spend 3 Siphons total to deal 250 Potency. A gain of 83.33 Pot/Siphon.
Applying Dark Arts to Souleater: Spend 2 Siphons to gain 140 Potency. A gain of 70 Pot/Siphon.

Against a single target, Carve and Spit is your most efficient use of MP for damage. This is followed by a naked Dark Passenger and then finally a Dark Arted Soul Eater.

Why is not getting back HALF a DA SE a deal breaker for you? You're just losing free potency for no reason!

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Originally Posted by Lawson_Grey

Why is not getting back HALF a DA SE a deal breaker for you? You're just losing free potency for no reason!

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Explain to how is a DA+CaS free? You don't get MP back from a DA+CaS. I'm in the gap about DA+CaS and would like to see why I would use it. Thank for your very well thought out input.


Oh a side thanks to the people who was more helpful, thanks. It just seemed odd because I changed my rotation to do DA+CaS but I was doing 30 less DPS then I was when I used CaS on it's own. Might just be that night. I'll ask a friend to help me out with a phaser.

Fun fact= if you're OTing and keeping Scourge and Delirium up, with full BW uptime, you will TP floor before you MP floor even if you DA every single SE and Carve, while casting DP on cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Fun fact= if you're OTing and keeping Scourge and Delirium up, with full BW uptime, you will TP floor before you MP floor even if you DA every single SE and Carve, while casting DP on cooldown.

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Not to mention if you get multi hits with Blood price on, ohh I do love getting Prey in A1s.

So let's assume that you are using souleater as your main combo (for the purpose of this example). You apply dark arts to souleater, adding 140 potency to the combo (400 instead of 260) and using carve and spit to gain around 900 mp (about half of using dark arts once). Your total potency is 900, while gaining 900 mp as well.

Instead, you decide to use dark arts on carve and spit during your combo. You add 350 potency to carve and spit (450 instead of 100), but lose the mp gain. Add to that your souleater combo, and you get a total potency of 1,110 and no mp gain.

So it all comes down to either getting 210 extra potency in your combo or 900 mp. Now, using dark arts on souleater gives you 140 bonus potency. You only gain half of a dark arts from using a standard carve and spit, meaning that 900 mp only adds up to a possible 70 potency (assuming you could half apply a dark arts to souleater). So the theoretical net gain of using dark arts on carve and spit is essentially 140 potency for every time that it is up.

In conclusion, you have a net loss of potency using carve and spit without dark arts, and this should really only be done when you are about to drop out of darkside (as the bonus 140 potency won't mean anything after you lose your 15% damage buff, even for just a few seconds).

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Originally Posted by Litegrace

Snip.

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Ah thanks for that, yeah I can do DA+CaS and DA+SE in 1 combo chain,

here is my opener, DA, Scrouge*Dot skill, CaS, then I do my SE Combo fitting in a DA before SE is ready to use.

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Originally Posted by Litegrace

So let's assume that you are using souleater as your main combo (for the purpose of this example). You apply dark arts to souleater, adding 140 potency to the combo (400 instead of 260) and using carve and spit to gain around 900 mp (about half of using dark arts once). Your total potency is 900, while gaining 900 mp as well.

Instead, you decide to use dark arts on carve and spit during your combo. You add 350 potency to carve and spit (450 instead of 100), but lose the mp gain. Add to that your souleater combo, and you get a total potency of 1,110 and no mp gain.

So it all comes down to either getting 210 extra potency in your combo or 900 mp. Now, using dark arts on souleater gives you 140 bonus potency. You only gain half of a dark arts from using a standard carve and spit, meaning that 900 mp only adds up to a possible 70 potency (assuming you could half apply a dark arts to souleater). So the theoretical net gain of using dark arts on carve and spit is essentially 140 potency for every time that it is up.

In conclusion, you have a net loss of potency using carve and spit without dark arts, and this should really only be done when you are about to drop out of darkside (as the bonus 140 potency won't mean anything after you lose your 15% damage buff, even for just a few seconds).

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It's even worse than this for C&S because you can replace any theoretically lost DA SE with a Delirium combo, taking the bonus potency down to 120.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

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Exactly, I was just trying to keep the example as simply and homogenized as possible in this case. 9 times out of 10 it's better to use dark arts with carve and spit, but I have been in situations where using C&S without DA has saved me from falling out of darkside, so it does have its uses from time to time. That's what I like so much about DRK, there is no single way to play. There are always situations in which playing differently can benefit you, but of course the situations requiring change don't appear too often it seems.

MP has never been an issue for me, If I'm low on MP I just do the DEL combo.

So I suppose use DA+CaS for when you have tons of MP but as the fight goes on just using CaS once MP starts to get low?

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Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess

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Like I said, it's all situational and ultimately up to you during the fight. But as a general rule of thumb, I would say to always use DA+C&S unless you are in danger of falling out of Darkside (very low on mp), in which case you should use C&S without DA (but this should be rare).

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Originally Posted by Litegrace

Like I said, it's all situational and ultimately up to you during the fight. But as a general rule of thumb, I would say to always use DA+C&S unless you are in danger of falling out of Darkside (very low on mp), in which case you should use C&S without DA (but this should be rare).

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Yeah I rarely if ever fall out of it, the guideline I follow is if I don't have enough MP for DA when I'm about to use my Syphon Slash then it's DEL combo, which is about 2K MP.

I didn't appreciate your rude response to me. The reason why you were salty is becuase you misunderstood what I was saying, which is not my fault.

I didn't say the skill was free. I said you're losing out on FREE potency.

Using Carve and Spit without Dark Arts means you miss out on 350 potency to gain HALF of a dark arts back in Mana. If a Dark Arts Souleater is 400 over the base of 240, that means Dark Arts there is worth 160 potency. It's actually worth 140 since you'd use Delierum before you used Souleater plain.

So for HALF of a Dark Arts on Souleater you're gaining 70 potency.

That means DA Carve and Spit = 350 gained potency. Carve and spit = 70 gained potency (via the mana restore giving you half a Dark Arts Souleater)

In the future just reread a comment before replying and getting it wrong and being rude in the process.

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Originally Posted by Lawson_Grey

I didn't appreciate your rude response to me. The reason why you were salty is becuase you misunderstood what I was saying, which is not my fault.

I didn't say the skill was free. I said you're losing out on FREE potency.

Using Carve and Spit without Dark Arts means you miss out on 350 potency to gain HALF of a dark arts back in Mana. If a Dark Arts Souleater is 400 over the base of 240, that means Dark Arts there is worth 160 potency. It's actually worth 140 since you'd use Delierum before you used Souleater plain.

So for HALF of a Dark Arts on Souleater you're gaining 70 potency.

That means DA Carve and Spit = 350 gained potency. Carve and spit = 70 gained potency (via the mana restore giving you half a Dark Arts Souleater)

In the future just reread a comment before replying and getting it wrong and being rude in the process.

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Well my apologies if I offended you or if I seem off rude but you could have put a reason why behind your comment "Why is not getting back HALF a DA SE a deal breaker for you? You're just losing free potency for no reason!" and you don't have to put stuff in caps for me to read as some people might take that the wrong way like I did.

Annnd not to mention you didn't really add anything constructive to this thread just that comment. If you put what you put just then I would find it better.

Just want to reiterate that if you're not in grit, the rotation is NOT situational. You have a set order to your abilities for max dps and debuff/dot uptime as an OT.