PLD as a Tank on Alexander Savage (my opinion)

At the same time Paladins deals less damage compared to other tankers... what if the damage reduction from block and his cooldowns helps healer to deal more DPS... so his weakness makes healers' life easier... just like Astrologian, he heals less than WhM but he gives more dps to the party by using his cards...

But how? Thinking of it this way it will just put more pressure on healers to DPS all the time then. I don't think PLD's DPS is that bad, I mean I'm on A3S savage and I've got a PLD/DRk for tanks in the group.

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Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess

But how? Thinking of it this way it will just put more pressure on healers to DPS all the time then. I don't think PLD's DPS is that bad, I mean I'm on A3S savage and I've got a PLD/DRk for tanks in the group.

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I don't think it's more pressure... I like to DPS while healing... I know many people don't like it but... Unfortunately this is how the Hardcore Stuff is based on FFXIV... I dunno all the tank stuff at Alexander Savage... but after some cooldowns maybe a paladin can even switch to sword oath if the aggro is Ok and (s)he will still have his shield and the buff up (which affects physical and magic dmg) this is more like a "stop whinning and think how to get a better dps without losing your tanking capabilities if you are complaning about dps than a "healers needs a better dps because Im a paladin"

No offense intended but you're taking a really ignorant view of how PLD and tanks in general work, both on their own and in relation to a healer's DPS. If it was as simple as popping cooldowns more you wouldn't be the 30th new topic to address the issue.

PLD doesn't put out significantly more mitigation than WAR or DRK. You can argue "exactly" how much DPS that extra mitigation gives a healer but for most people it should not make a huge difference. If you couldn't find time to do it with a WAR/DRK, you probably won't have that much with a PLD either.

PLD popping Rampart and putting up Sword Oath is, mitigation-wise, the same but a gross waste of Rampart since tanks generally need to save their major cooldowns for things that actually threaten them (tankbusters). They're not up often enough to pop for regular use like that.

PLD (and DRK to an extent) can't just drop out of tank stance while MTing at will either because putting tank stance back on costs a GCD and in progression you're getting hit like a truck without it. Enmity is never, ever a problem. It's maintaining acceptable damage intake, being able to pick up adds, and balancing that with your damage output. Something PLD doesn't have the tools to do as effectively as the other 2 tanks.

All tanks are losing something from the magic damage-centric meta brought by Alex Savage, so PLD can't claim that they're in a rut just because of losing shield blocks. WAR loses Raw Intuition, DRK loses parrying and the little benefits that brings to Low Blow and Reprisal. Putting physical back on the table doesn't "fix" PLD, nor does it cripple the so-called "magic tank" DRK.

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Originally Posted by Umbreon_skystorm

I don't think it's more pressure... I like to DPS while healing... I know many people don't like it but... Unfortunately this is how the Hardcore Stuff is based on FFXIV... I dunno all the tank stuff at Alexander Savage... but after some cooldowns maybe a paladin can even switch to sword oath if the aggro is Ok and (s)he will still have his shield and the buff up (which affects physical and magic dmg) this is more like a "stop whinning and think how to get a better dps without losing your tanking capabilities if you are complaning about dps than a "healers needs a better dps because Im a paladin"

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Yeah a healer shouldn't need to pick up the slack of a PLD's DPS. I think something that PLD needs to do on it's own is better.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

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Really have to agree with most if not all Seravi said in the post.

In response to Umbreon's idea of switching to sword oath that's really a crippling option for a PLD to make since our stances are on GCD essentially wastes 10secs (not accounting skill speed) of time we could be spending continually dpsing. The time wasted (5secs per change) being the wait for gcd prior to and after the stance change, then the one later when we switch back to tanking stance.

War and Drk can play with their stances more readily since both of theirs are off GCD leaving no dead time and doesn't cancel out the combo chains they weave together. Also war's higher damage dealing in dps stance can also self heal themselves to sustain tanking in dps stance (drk as well though to a much lesser extent). A paladin doesn't have enough mitigation to warrant the tradeoff off of going dps stance as a mt usually unless the pull is small or the are overgeared for the content in general.

Well... You can turn off shield oath if you really wanted to land that FoF Goring Blade+CoS for the strong dot then switch back to Shield Oath. That's only 1 GCD and 50 pot less auto attack for not activating sword oath. It is only advisable to activate sword oath if the boss has no deadly mechanic to do for the next minute or so. If you really are going to push it, like A4S, then you can simply activate sentinel and still have more mitigation than shield oath and rampart, combined.

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Originally Posted by rawker

Well... You can turn off shield oath if you really wanted to land that FoF Goring Blade+CoS for the strong dot then switch back to Shield Oath. That's only 1 GCD and 50 pot less auto attack for not activating sword oath. It is only advisable to activate sword oath if the boss has no deadly mechanic to do for the next minute or so. If you really are going to push it, like A4S, then you can simply activate sentinel and still have more mitigation than shield oath and rampart, combined.

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that would only advisable if PLD was OT since Discord comes around often he would need Sentinel to reduce Discord.

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Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess

that would only advisable if PLD was OT since Discord comes around often he would need Sentinel to reduce Discord.

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Discoid is the targeting mechanic that focuses 2 sets of 3 balls on a player. In Savage, you won't actually be taking full sets of balls - and if you do, you would take them with LD/Hallowed as you'll need to get them all at once so you can get back to the boss asap. Once the debuffs go out, this becomes even more unreliable if you've already used LD/Hallowed since the amount of healing increases exponentially (unless you let it drop off completely through the suicide strat). You basically want different people taking 1-2 balls each, and you want your healers to solo both sets in phase 1.

What I think you actually mean is the tank buster in the last phase, possibly? In that case you'll be saving Sentinel and Hallowed, but I also wouldn't advise being in SwO as MT in the final phase regardless, especially if you're intentionally letting the Straf doll detonate. SwO should mainly be used in the first 2 phases, along with in Quarantine if Bulwark/Sheltron/Rampart/FoF are available as you need to help burst the dolls down as fast as possible. There are various other places you can be in SwO during phase 3 and 4, especially if you're ignoring the debuffs entirely, but there's also the missiles you'll have to deal with every so often.

You could also be talking about A4 Normal, in which case you're better off just staying in your tanking stance since DF healers tend to be a bit panicked during that phase.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Discoid is the targeting mechanic that focuses 2 sets of 3 balls on a player. In Savage, you won't actually be taking full sets of balls - and if you do, you would take them with LD/Hallowed as you'll need to get them all at once so you can get back to the boss asap. Once the debuffs go out, this becomes even more unreliable if you've already used LD/Hallowed since the amount of healing increases exponentially (unless you let it drop off completely through the suicide strat). You basically want different people taking 1-2 balls each, and you want your healers to solo both sets in phase 1.

What I think you actually mean is the tank buster in the last phase, possibly? In that case you'll be saving Sentinel and Hallowed, but I also wouldn't advise being in SwO as MT in the final phase regardless, especially if you're intentionally letting the Straf doll detonate. SwO should mainly be used in the first 2 phases, along with in Quarantine if Bulwark/Sheltron/Rampart/FoF are available as you need to help burst the dolls down as fast as possible. There are various other places you can be in SwO during phase 3 and 4, especially if you're ignoring the debuffs entirely, but there's also the missiles you'll have to deal with every so often.

You could also be talking about A4 Normal, in which case you're better off just staying in your tanking stance since DF healers tend to be a bit panicked during that phase.

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Eh we just have SCH heal up our tank once or twice for certain Discoids that come out in later legs and final phase while ranged grab a different set, no CDs needed on anyone's part. I would personally never waste a CD on orbs unless you are truly gaining a lot of healer DPS from it, usually in the form of Living Dead while healers ignore you and orbs.

Believe it or not Sword Oath/no Grit/Deliverance is extremely risk-free in final phase for a large chunk of it, aside from nerves and gitters and getting used to it I guess (but not really on this point, we're talking about autos that only do about 1/7 your tank's HP pool out of tank stance). The boss hits truly like a child on the MT in that phase, like every other phase, and you have 4 missiles in the 2m20s loop (before/after Perpetuals which is the Raven's Claw clone in A4S, start of and mid-way through Jagd phase).

Basically, if you're going to use HG or its variant on the second Perpetual Ray set, there is about a 2 minute window (the final missile in Jagd phase #1 - start of next Jagd phase #2 missile) where you're just taking autos for the most part, the worst you can say about it is the missile before Perpetuals but it's not too deadly since CDs should be freed up. I would actually advise any tank in that phase to be adventurous, the incoming damage is as low as ever honestly and depending on strat/skill/gear you can need all the help you can get on that enrage, or of course beating Royal orb set #3 without saccing people.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

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This is what I did on 2.X during The Coil of Bahamut... since rampard do have a cooldown, I could switch after the healers healed me after a tankbuster... I got a 10% to 20% dps increase by doing this... I like the Meatshield tanker but we need to do more than that to survive (Thank you dps check) and there are so many posts whinning about PLD dps on savage... I know I only healed the tanks at savage on 3.X... but I think PLDs can overcome this "overall dps decrease"
I know PLD IS a defensive class... but what can we do to transform this defesive power in offensive?
for example:before a tankbuster you use rampart, after healers healed you you switch to sword oath, before rampart ends use foresight+bulwark to extend the sword oath (we don't have a tankbuster every 20 seconds to be in shield oath every time).