Class-Specific Limit Breaks

After a while in Heavensward, I look back to the excitement I had when new Limit Breaks were announced originally.

Despite loving the new animations, I am disappointed with the system. Dressing something up differently is not enough to prove to me that two of the same thing, are different.

My problems:
not all LBs are made equal and even though we have these great animations we NEVER see them all in use which is really sad.

These are not the class specific LBs that people were talking about before. There are class specific animations, but in terms of effect this is not the case.

I want to talk about the possibility of class-specific limit breaks which would help to divide the currently problem of homogeneity within class categories (healer, tank, ranged dps etc.) which would bring about more excitement, utility and strategy when creating a raiding, PVE or PVP party.

I wish they had implemented it this way too and was disappointed that it wasn't so. I would prefer it if the limit breaks were by class with different additional effects that relate to the class' lore (and if there were a separate limit break bar for each player) instead of the copy-paste same-potency, same-effect, different-animation silliness we have now.

For example, the SCH's niche is that it's the damage mitigation/DPSing healer. SCH could receive an AOE heal of X potency that creates a unbreakable barrier that reduces damage taken by x% and restores HP equal to the effect of the barrier each time the target is damaged, lasting a duration of Xs. This plays into both of its characterizations, making a barrier that also heals which frees it for more DPS time.

WHM is the raw potency healer. WHM could receive an AOE regen that increases each target's reception to healing by X% on each tick for a duration of Xs, the increased reception to healing lasting a duration of Xs after the final tick. This affords it for even more raw healing for that next Cure II.

To me, there's just too many possibilities for the uniqueness of LBs for them to not have been implemented by class and with less homogeneity.

Bard/MCH Limit breaks really should have been ramping Party Buffs

Lunatic High, anyone?

Limit 1: Move Speed For 30seconds
Limit 2: As Limit 1, + TP/MP cost reduction for 45 seconds
Limit 3: As Limit 1+2, +Attack Speed for 60 seconds.

This gives the limit a definitive use for Bards / Machinists, filling the niche of being of far greater use when you don't need an instant -burn it the !#% down now- from standard DPS limit breaks, or -get everyone up right the !#^% now- from healers.

@Kabooa
While that does give BRD/MCH a new viable usage case for the Limit Break, it doesn't fill the issue of each LB being unique per class. Right now, you've got the tank "Defences up" LB, the healer "OMG HEALTH UP!" LB, the melee DPS "Super-Burst" LB, the Caster's "AoE Bomb" LB, and the BRD/MCH "Skillshot Bomb" LB. The OP was suggesting that each class has a different LB, as opposed to a different animation per LB. Let's take the SMN and BLM as an example. Here's how we could separate the LBs so they do something different as opposed to just having a different animation.

BLM LB: Keep same as before, same animation, looks nice. This big AoE burst bomb.
SMN LB: Perhaps a powerful DoT, for where you need a steady influx of extra damage.

The SMN LB now ties in a lot nicer to what the class is about (DoTs and debuffs), as well as becoming more unique to BLM LB as opposed to just a different animation.

Now think that, but across the board for all different jobs/classes.

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Originally Posted by Tsuole

My problems:
not all LBs are made equal and even though we have these great animations we NEVER see them all in use which is really sad.

These are not the class specific LBs that people were talking about before. There are class specific animations, but in terms of effect this is not the case.

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Can't get both unless each class has at least two options. They would each have to have an equal (read: basically identical) option atop their much more unique effect LB.

Some LB sets I'd like to see:
Monk: Sovereign Fist (standard single-target LB, but with extended (leap) range and portion of overkill damage as AoE) / Six-sided Strike (random dash attacks from the perimeter, gaining strength based on damage dealt while moving towards center of AoE zone); Sixth Gate (massive self-buff), Dragon Dance (the monks' and certain other class abilities deal bonus damage and cause linked AoEs between the performing players); Final Heaven, Soul Without (sort of a temporary raid-saver somewhere between dps, healer, and tank LB)
Puglist: Sovereign Fist, Scoundrel's Honor; Dirty Fighting, Simian Thrash; Beatdown
Lancer: Surge, Pierce; Reis Wind, Doom Lance; The Rounds
Dragoon: Highwind, Wyrmcall; Six Dragons, Orbital Drop; Dragon Soul,
Archer: Shrieker, Puncture; Trifurcate, Crosshairs; Heavens Salute
Bard: Shrieker, Make Haste; Trifurcate, Hunter's Chance; Heavens Salute, Of Legend
Machinist: Big Shot, Augment; Desperado, Automate; Orbital Lazer, Machina
Conjurer/WHM: Earth Call, Wind Song; Hidden Springs, Sanctuary; Pulse of Life (won't differ until Geomancer)

etc., etc.

I think there's too many balance issues when you change the LBs for all the classes to be unique; especially replacing damage spells with buffs. You essentially have to calculate that the group buff will equal the damage dealt by the LB for however long it lasts.

It's actually really hard to balance because if you set it up at a perfect rotation for 8 players to equal that damage, then nobody is going to do it because a single player pressing one button to do that damage is preferable to a party of 8 doing perfect mechanics to get the same damage. If you set it the buff too strong, the raid groups with world firsts are going to realize the potential and alienate other classes because a singular LB is that strong. SE has been really strict about not doing that too.

So I honestly don't see these new abilities being used at all in the normal game. Now, they may add new and unique LBs to pvp, since the stats there are more or less set for everyone, so its' easier to make comparable moves (since you don't have to scale for increased ilevel).
Being able to choose from a selection of LB options would meet the player's desire for customization too.
Finally, it's a section of the game that I think the devs are more willing to experiment with than the dungeons, trials, and raids. If it works really well there, they might move it to the rest of the game too.

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Originally Posted by Anova

I think there's too many balance issues when you change the LBs for all the classes to be unique; especially replacing damage spells with buffs. You essentially have to calculate that the group buff will equal the damage dealt by the LB for however long it lasts.

It's actually really hard to balance because if you set it up at a perfect rotation for 8 players to equal that damage, then nobody is going to do it because a single player pressing one button to do that damage is preferable to a party of 8 doing perfect mechanics to get the same damage. If you set it the buff too strong, the raid groups with world firsts are going to go with that combination and alienate other classes. SE has been really strict about not doing that too.

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Typically as long as you have one other job that can do basically the same LB (for a given stage), there's little to no increased reason to use a rigid class composition. This is a large part of why I like the idea of multiple LB options per stage for most jobs -- more potential overlap. Though, as much as I love the idea of buff/battle-regimen LBs, I have to agree with you in their difficulty of balancing. Usually any LBs of that style would need to generate more bonus damage than the more straightforward dps LB to be worthwhile, because there are so many more ways it can go wrong and waste itself. (If not 10-25% higher damage when perfected, then the bonus would have to at least come via the fact that you can refill the limit bars while still using the (buff) LB, and with the buff accelerating that limit bar generation at that.) That in turn does mean that most star groups will only ever use the buff LB unless they don't have enough time before phase shift or need something dead asap. Honestly that still doesn't seem a huge issue to me, though, as those disclaimer conditions happen frequently, and each choice (whether 'direct' or 'regimen' LB) can be carried by more than one job.

Giving every job it's own unique mechanical limit break just means you're going to have 10 limit breaks that don't get used instead of 3.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Giving every job it's own unique mechanical limit break just means you're going to have 10 limit breaks that don't get used instead of 3.

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Would really depend on the particular fight, the particular LBs, and whatever adjustments are eventually made to the LB system generally. Who knows, we might eventually see sub-3-bar LBs used as more than just phase-pushers / waste-prevention.

Why don't each player has his own LB bar separated from the party as seen in PvP seal rock and slaughter modes. I think it would be more fun that way. If damage was an issue then it can be scaled down to have it as powerful as it is now. This way we can have more variety in fights such as using tank LB and heal LB.

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Originally Posted by Yaichiro

Why don't each player has his own LB bar separated from the party as seen in PvP seal rock and slaughter modes. I think it would be more fun that way. If damage was an issue then it can be scaled down to have it as powerful as it is now. This way we can have more variety in fights such as using tank LB and heal LB.

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Honestly, I'd love to see that expanded into the skillchains or whatever they were called in XI. I never got to use them (I was still playing RuneScape with FFXI was the big thing) but people have told me how skillchains worked and they are something I would love to see in XIV. That way, combining tanks, healers, and DPS, into a skillchain that creates its own unique effect, could make for some very interesting plays. Right now it's as simple as push the button, and watch as your up up down down left right left right B A starts up... not exactly challenging.

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Originally Posted by Yaichiro

Why don't each player has his own LB bar separated from the party as seen in PvP seal rock and slaughter modes. I think it would be more fun that way. If damage was an issue then it can be scaled down to have it as powerful as it is now. This way we can have more variety in fights such as using tank LB and heal LB.

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And healers could actually use LB when they know the party is going to wipe and not be called out for it. Even if it's nowhere near as powerful (say it only raises people killed within the last sixty seconds, or that it only raises them with 30% health and weakness), it's better than watching everyone die because the remaining tank or DPS believe that they can outlast and then LB the boss when you (being fairly intimate with health bars and their tendency to drastically shrink) know they will not.

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Originally Posted by Amiaze

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This, so much this. I could easily see them slashing the potency of the limit breaks (except maybe tank) and making them individualized. And it would reward better play across the board. You want to use your LB3 against the final boss of the dungeon? Don't die. Ever. You die, it goes away. Just some quick examples:

Melee lv1: 900 potency
Melee lv2: 1800 potency
Melee lv3: 2700 potency

Caster/Ranger lv1: 500 potency
Caster/Ranger lv2: 1000 potency
Caster/Ranger lv3: 1500 potency

Tank lv1: 20% damage reduction, 10s duration
Tank lv2: 35% damage reduction, 8s duration
Tank lv3: 50% damage reduction, 6s duration, stoneskin II

Healer lv1: 15% max HP
Healer lv2: 30% max HP
Healer lv3: 45% max HP, AoE raise (with weakness)

Edit: Before anyone cries OP on those numbers. The Lv3 melee is 9000, so four melee would be 10800 potency, but... at the same time, four melee, and it is a similar case with casters and rangers (5400 vs 6000). Two melee and two caster/ranger would be 8400 potency, which is less than we have now, but is much more flexible as to when you have each player use their limit break, so it would work out okay.