I just resubbed for this game, i played a Bard to 50 back at launch.
Are we a pure DPS class, or do these Bards have a supporting role?
If support, what skills are they benefitting with ?
I hope to hear from anyone asap, so i know if i should reroll or stick with it =)
Bard questions - what role are we ?
Printable View
-
09-05-2015, 03:50 AMGhaanizBard questions - what role are we ?
-
09-05-2015, 04:05 AMEgnasya
Generally the game knows only tank, healer, and DPS roles. There is a bit of a grey area with classes like the Bard. They have songs which use their otherwise unused MP bar to enable group buffs that restore MP or TP of nearby party members, or weaken nearby enemies' magic defenses so that casters deal more damage. With that Bards sure have their place in group setup. You might however not see big numbers like BLM or DRG does, and be warned, at level 60 Bard is not as mobile as it was at 50 since new mechanics in Heavensward trade increased damage for cast timers on weaponskills.
-
09-05-2015, 04:15 AMSleigh
You're a DPS who gets buffed by BRD and buffs caster/healer DPS while being able to recover party TP/MP. You have the capability of doing DPS anywhere from a bit below melee on a dummy, to ridiculous damage in real fights if you make use of your multi-DoTs and AoE.
Call it support, call it DPS, whatever. You're a vital role in the party. -
09-05-2015, 04:34 AMAskaRay
We are the ones in the party who keep track of the MP/TP bars, play songs without asking, look to see if the healer or any other caster is DPSing so go ahead and play Foe's. Every once in a while we're the ones to silence stuff. Kiting is still a thing here and there so we'll be called on to do that as well.
We are also here to pull hate off the tanks with our burst opener, then get funny looks and say "Yeah so what's Quelling Strikes? Who uses that"
I'm kidding
or am i -
09-05-2015, 05:06 AMLilith_Merquise
BRD is a class that doesn't fall properly in the trinity but in a negative way that is not encouraged nor endorsed by the devs. It lacks any substantial contribution and is essentially a DPS class playing at a handicap for negligible bonuses. Until the devs realize this that the "Trinity" is more of a guidline rather then a "Law" BRD will essentially be lost in translation and WAR will continue to be the only true hybrid class in the game that can be both DPS and Tank roles.... Because ya know.... we can't have Hybrids in the game.... Where is my damn BLU already...
-
09-05-2015, 05:11 AMNovaLevossida
Every job in the game offers support. Your support functions aren't unique in themselves. You're just punished more harshly for some reason for using your utility than others.
-
09-05-2015, 05:50 AMLilith_MerquiseThats definitely true, we're caught in this sort of oximoron that we want to be strict to the Trinity, but still give people unique utility functions that make jobs interesting and different. But still keeping harsh punishments for the classes that are "loosely defined" as "Support" roles like BRD losing DPS in songs and MCH losing turrets in Promotion. I will say MCH is in a better place, but so long as its still put in the same competition as DRG, SMN, MNK, we'll still just feel somewhat mediocre even if the playstyle is very fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by NovaLevossida
I mean hell even DRK and WAR basically cancel out their Tank stance damge reductions with abilities while PLD gets the shaft, but we have MCH who gets a Barrel that puts its damage close to on par with heavy hitter DPS but becomes almost below average DPS when turret is in promotion, and its even worse for BRD. -
09-05-2015, 06:12 AMAtteliaI blame the resource system. Resource management is taken out of the hands of the individual player, and is given to the BRD (and now MCH). Utility that important must be tempered somehow, without hurting its potency (since it's basically required for lengthy fights); thus, poorer damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by NovaLevossida
I personally believe that DPS should not be penalized with resource starvation for playing correctly (filling every gcd, ABC, etc.) I guess I just don't "get" the resource system. -
09-05-2015, 06:29 AMLinadae
I don't think Square knows what Bards are to be honest. In one interview Yoshida says there is no such thing as a support class. In another he says Bards (and MCH) are a support class. Yet even after that second interview where we were declared a support class, we can't queue as support.
This was something that should have been figured out when they took 1.0 down for the overhaul or at the very least when they were working on Heavensward. But they didn't and once more we're stuck with this ball of confusion they call Bard.
More and more it's become clear that bard was the last on their list of classes to look at for the expansion and they ran out of time. Hopefully we'll be moved further up the list when 4.0 comes around. -
09-05-2015, 06:35 AMLilith_MerquiseI'm not so sure, even at 2.5 it was far less useful then it is in 3.0, I sure hope thy do something about this Support definition because honestly it makes it all to easy for ignorant people to blame the BRD/MCH for less DPS then higher classes even though its having to make sure that those putting out the harder DPS can still do it when they are blowing through their resource reserves...Quote:
Originally Posted by Linadae
-
09-05-2015, 07:16 AMEgnasyaSpecial thanks to inaccurate translation. He prolly didn't contradict himself in Japanese.Quote:
Originally Posted by Linadae
I'm pretty sure in the first interview he refered to no role being strictly support, as in every class is either clearly tank, healer or DPS. A pure support role would be a class that does neither tank nor heal nor deal (considerable) damage. Even if Bard DPS is bad in comparison to others, it's still not as bad it would have to be for a pure supporter.
In the second he probably spoke more of support that is integrated in the current class lineup which differs a bit from class to class. Arguably Bard has more support to offer in that regard than say Black Mage, thus Bard leans more towards being a support class while still staying DPS in its core, even if a bit of that cake gets cut out and distributed among everyone else; you bet SE still counts this as contribution coming from the Bard. -
09-05-2015, 07:26 AMfm_fenrir
BRD was what you would call "support" in FFXI--you didn't actually do anything except play songs, and your contribution was measured solely in your ability to juggle position and songs on everything in the fight (friend and foe alike). It wasn't a DPS class, but because the song effects were so damn strong, the six people who played BRD were in massive demand for literally any content that mattered.
SE learned from that and made BRD a DPS class, so people who didn't want to play buffbot might pick up the class and offer those buffs to more groups. So yes, BRD is support, but not "pure" support because most people hate playing those classes. -
09-05-2015, 07:58 AMKitfox
BRD/MCH role should be called "Battery" because that's what they are. :D
-
09-05-2015, 08:14 AMT2teddyYou played a level 50 Bard but don't know what your job is in a party? How is that even possible...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghaaniz
You have buffing songs which help with increasing party dps, TP regen, MP regen.
So while you're adding to overall DPS with your own shots etc, you're making it possible for everyone else to improve their performance. -
09-05-2015, 08:36 AMSleighTo be fair, BRDs both had ridiculous DPS back at launch, and had no clue to play Foe's/TP song since it wasn't ingrained in the meta in the first few weeks (at least the ones I played with). Foe's on pull? That was a strange concept.Quote:
Originally Posted by T2teddy
-
09-05-2015, 08:55 AMLilith_Merquise
lol you rarely ever even played songs unless you wanted shit DPS, the previous -20% damage reduction was obnoxiously disgusting and a small buff by moving it to -15%. Still we see how much 10% can be a real game breaker from things like Blood for Blood, so to lose any of that DPS is just a real kick to your DPS tender parts. The problem is that SE doesn't want BRD to be the 11 Buff Bot because it was rarely played and was literally the most important part of a party next to a RDM. But doesn't want to make it the DPS it was at the launch of the game with long range and the ability to essentially sidestep all together lethal abilities while dealing damage where as other melee range DPS are zoned out. I get that, but at the same time, you not making up your mind about where this class lies in the greater scheme of things really shows in the class for how weak it is.
-
09-05-2015, 08:56 AMLilith_Merquise
Is it nice to have a BRD or a MCH in higher level content? Sure. Is it mandatory? Hell no! Most of the classes have abilities that gain back TP and MP, and if you're not using them effectively, you shouldn't even be in high level content to begin with. If a Healer has to cast raise AT ALL in higher content, chances are your death wiped the raid anyway. So what is even the point? If you can't manage your resources then you're simply not ready for higher content, and that is the problem. Sure BRD/MCH can make certain classes more lazy and less dependent on their own abilities, but any skilled player playing any of those classes doesn't even need a BRD/MCH to be apart of the run to win it effectively. In short meaning, we get nerfed for having abilities, that are fundamentally luxury in the greater scope of the game.
-
09-05-2015, 09:32 AMDGladius
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...sLaoo/pubhtml#
Doesn't seem like Bard or MCH dps is bad at all. -
09-05-2015, 10:07 AMMikedizzyYou will not see big numbers like Black Mage but we can see some big numbers "for us"...I hit something like a 5786 Sidewinder and it felt so damn good....love new Bard although it is definitely not for everyone any more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Egnasya
-
09-05-2015, 11:47 AMNovaLevossidaOh, I definitely like "for us" numbers. I know my Deathflare isn't as strong as the top potency attacks in the game, but we all enjoy seeing our own job's big numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikedizzy
-
09-05-2015, 12:13 PMAtteliaIs that true? I haven't done anyQuote:
Originally Posted by Lilith_Merquise
challengingcontent, but I was under the impression healers and mDPS (if played optimally) were expected to fall low on resources on lengthy or challenging fights. -
09-05-2015, 12:39 PMSleighIt depends on the fight. For MP, during progression you always want Ballad or its equivalent available, no matter what, but after it's on farm it's usually not needed (although it's still a situation where you'd rather have it available and not need it, rather than need it and not have it available). For TP, currently 3 of the 4 savage fights are TP sinks at one point or another and you will need TP song eventually or you'll lose a lot of raid DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Attelia
It doesn't really matter though. BRD (and MCH) DPS when buffed by a DRG isn't that far off from melee/casters. In some fights it's at the level of, or higher than melee, plus they buff caster DPS, so there's really no point to ever not bringing a BRD or MCH except in the strangest of comps. -
09-05-2015, 08:42 PMKelevraQuote:
Originally Posted by Lilith_Merquise
This, so much.Quote:
Originally Posted by NovaLevossida
Look, I get that ppl were pissed at how Bard had easy access to huge damage when 2.0 launched...and SE nerfed them as a result. But most of the other dps jobs (that were around with Bard when 2.0 launched) are more fine tuned now. Folks have gotten better at/more use to playing those jobs now to get the most out of them. That and some of them have utility support skills that are beneficial to the party (Drg with Disembowel, Battle Litany: Mnk with Dragon Kick, Mantra: Smn that can raise indefinitely if needed, Virus, Eye for an Eye, etc.) just as much as one of the Bard's songs (and don't incur a dmg penalty upon using some of them like a Bard does).
Bard needs to be brought up to being even with those other dps jobs again. I'm not saying nerf the other jobs. I'm not saying make Bard as broken and 'easy street' as before (I'm personally ok with the bulk of Bard dmg being gated behind Minuet---the playstyle could use some tweaks, but it does feel good to me). I just want ppl that play Bard correctly and to the best of their ability being able to contribute, somewhat, equal amount of dmg to the other dps jobs when they are also played correctly and to the best of their abilities.
...Square wants to keep introducing strict 'dps checks' into the game, but instead of allowing Bard to contribute equal amounts of dmg with some of the other dps jobs, they rather have someone like a Scholar/Warrior heal/tank less and do more dps -
09-05-2015, 10:05 PMDGladiusBut BRD and MCH dps is fine where they are right now and aren't detrimental to the group as shown in in their performances in savage. I've posted saying this before. There isn't a problem with their dps. For single target they won't make them do as much dmg as melee dps otherwise it would be OP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelevra
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...sLaoo/pubhtml# -
09-06-2015, 12:17 AMKelevraWith the exception of that one Bard, some of the stuff in that document suggests that putting Bards on equal footing with some of the other dps jobs...wouldn't be 'OP'Quote:
Originally Posted by DGladius