Crit or Det for Mnk

Sadly i am not good at math like so many of those Theory Crafters out there, But i do love find out which is best for the classes i play. So i go around and look at web pages for info and try my best to look at the numbers when i dps a dummy, or when on a boss fight. Since 2.0, MNK has always been det. ( BiS>acc>Det>Crit.)

3.0 brought us a upgrade to crit. A VERY nice one actually. I have seen the new theory crafted numbers and some others as well for how stats are weighed in 3.0. Crit is only 21 points higher than Det say some of the more well known theory crafters. From what i have understood over the patches in FFXIV. Det is always there. More Det equals out to be more str and more str equals out to be more weapon damage.

I dont not claim that any of this is 100% true. Just info i have picked up through forums and word of mouth. I look forward to hearing others thoughts on this.

I have been going as much crit as possible and at 190 with 200 weapon I am seeing some really good numbers. I currently have 770 crit and a little below 500 det. With the nerf to det I think most are going crit build anyways

Thats what i have been hearing but it is hard to believe crit ( chance based damage ) is better then det, which affects all damage and is always there plus scales to str which then scales to weapon damage. all crit does is give a chance to crit then ( this is nice ) makes the crit hit harder. ( <--- really cool ) plus it seems the average crit rate is 25%-30ish depending. If i am already hit hard with det then why bother with crit capping? OR MAYBE it may not matter when you have BiS on both sides and the parse will show the same numbers??? Maybe one is better then the other until you are in end game gear and can even the stats out?

Monk:

WD: 10.714
STR: 1.000
DET: 0.139
CRT: 0.160
SS: 0.116

Monk stat weights by Dervy.

I have seen that. there is only a 21 difference between the two. as i said and as most ppl say. It goes main stat>WD> insert off stat. Since enough det will equal WD and the crafters have spoken on this subject. WD>off stat. It does make sense that det is the better stat even with its nerf. Reading through all these forums and blogs does make things very confusing. I am not saying crit is not good at all. personally i would get crit to at least 600ish and the rest det for constant numbers. At least this is the understanding i have sicne 2.0 till now.

From the way your posts read I'm not sure if you really understand the purpose of the stat weights. It sounds as though you only consider det to have a relative value next to STR. The stat weights are to show each of the stats weights relative to STR. STR is used as your baseline. So X Det = 1 STR, X Crit = 1 STR, x SS = 1 STR, and WD being the outlying stat relative to STR since it's so heavily weighted which are all only estimates. So it's not just specific amount of Det that will equal a point of STR because Crit and SS will work out that way too. The reason why Det was initially valued so much before 3.0 was because of it's impact on auto attack which also made up almost 1/3 of Monk's total damage. Now that has changed, and it's very apparent since our overall auto attack damage has dropped in accordance with the lowered contribution towards auto attacks.

With the current state of secondary stats 1 point of Crit will always be more valuable than 1 point of Det. There's no up to a certain point because there's no evidence to suggest there's any cap thus far. Over the course of an extended fight you will see that while Crit is a chance it's not something that's totally random or unreliable since each and every single move and DOT tick can crit. Now it is true that secondaries are weighted very low right now, but as we get new tiers of gear and STR increases the value of secondaries will increase with them so while the difference right now won't be very substantial the difference will become apparent as we get higher ilvl gear.

However, one needs to remember that stat weights are just a means of rough comparison. At the end of it all there's so many factors that shift things around so if one set is worth ~2 less weighted STR it's not going to be much of a difference at all. Most people want to go after what's theoretically the highest value because it should offer the greatest potential.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MythrilDuelmatrix

Bleh.

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Do you even understand stat weights?

Because I don't. Well I understand it enough to tell you that it doesn't work the way you think it does.

Basically every point of Weapon Damage = 10.714 STR.

Every point of Det = .139 STR

Every point of Crit = .160 STR

Every point of SS = .116 STR

This simply means that on average every point of crit will influence your damage more than Crit. The way stat weights are calculated is based off of a simulation and expresses how each stat effects your overall dps relative to your main stat.

So yes, Crit is by far the better stat for MNK. Point for point it reigns supreme and it often comes in a larger quantity than Det.


Considering that SS comes in a larger quantity (Typically) it may be better than det as well, but that would impose clipping/TP problems.

There's a lot of considerations that go into stat weights tho. I'm not an expert but think of it like this, if you go straight Det how much Crit are you giving up? And vice versa.. Worse case, the difference in DPS with BiS or the worse set possible (of equal item level) is probably going to be less than 5%, as it was in ARR. I personally don't put too much thought it in, balance as best you can, if you can upgrade crit or det without losing other stats than do it (and sometimes it takes 2 or 3 pieces to balance out). Once you have every piece of gear possible then you can start mixing and matching for a BiS set, until then it's all progression to get to that point and upgrading the best pieces you can at any given time. What I do is spend time on Ariyala and plan upgrade paths as mentioned, as drg I need to maintain at least 599 skill speed, so what pieces can I swap out to drop acc, increase crit or det, etc, without loosing my skill speed. Stuff like that. Hope it helps!

Whiskeybravo and and Ricdeau, What you guys said does help out. I am aware that we need more item levels and higher stats to get a better reading. I do use Ariyala to plan out what i want to get. This is a set up i have planned for mnk ( cant add in the new relic just yet so stuck with what we have) http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/RI6A, i think my next step is to check out http://valk.dancing-mad.com/ ( is this site up to date?) If it is, i can get a good look at the numbers on both sides.

As far as I know the Valk site is pretty out of date (last update 2013?)

Yeah, i saw that after words. Was hoping i could see some numbers for my self since i have no idea how to do the Math or how it works. Did you happen to check my link for mnk? It seems to me to be rounded out good but if i need to twek it a bit let me know.

Ariyala works for building sets only, but you'll need to manually calculate the secondary weights. Since 3.0 at least for Monk it's solver doesn't work well at all. As Whiskeybravo pointed out Valks hasn't been updated since 2013 and his damage formulas only worked correctly at the gearing level available at that time. These calculations did not work once you had higher item level gear so his formulas were incorrect in the end.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ephier

Monk:

WD: 10.714
STR: 1.000
DET: 0.139
CRT: 0.160
SS: 0.116

Monk stat weights by Dervy.

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How recent are these stat weighs? If they are before 3.0, they don't include the buffs and nerf of the stats. If they are after, Dervy wouldn't be able to get accurate numbers at lvl 60 because we don't have gear of the same ilvl yet. It will be a month or 2 until people start getting multiple i210 pieces to test properly.

This was my thought as well Zcrash. Those stats are 3.0 and on though. I do not doubt Dervy and his math skills at all, the only thing i doubt is the proper testing when people have the gear. I am beyond great full for someone and others like Dervy that try their best to help out the community. I can not wait for more people to get higher item levels so we get a better round about number for these stats.

These stat weights are not accurate, and are to be taken with a grain of salt, they were modeled using dragoon stats and filled here and there with approximations for monk weights. With that said they're a good basis to go basing your choices off of for the time being. I dont think the weights will drastically change but Im sure there will be a bit of variance considering we generally have 20% more auto attacks more than dragoons do and an ability that has 95-100% crit rate that makes up 10% of our total damage, so det and crit weight values might be much different.

I'm sure we will know soon enough, I remember Dervy saying he would work on a monk model as soon as he found the time.

With 3.0, det does not have much of an effect on autos and crit buffs crit damage. 1% crit rate = 1% crit dmg, so crit still makes bootshine stronger.

If I plug his DRG formulas into my model, I get crit and determination to be about equal weight (.137). But the DPS contribution of auto-attacks vs. abilities is way off anyway. give monk formula plox