Fray and the dark arts

First of all, i love the Ishgard, by far the best music out of any capital city btw and the DRK trainer Fray is awesome

"The next knight that bares steel, im not only going to kill him, but im also going to kill his wife, his friends, and burn down his house down"

LOL yes!

So is Fray and the dark knights suppose to be heretics? Or is he an inquisitor? Are the Dark knights sort of a hidden guide like the Rogues in Limas or they not sanction by the Isgardian church since their is no guide hall like the Astro or the Machinist? And if he is allowed by the church, does that mean that they allow the use of the dark arts?

Dark knights started as a splinter group of disgraced Ishgardian knights that were stripped of their status for attempting to act against nobles and corrupt members of the Church.

The initial quest makes it sound like they're more of an urban legend in Ishgard than anything.

they're essentially vigilantes who go after the ones who are normally considered "untouchable" due to power or position.

essentially, remember the coerthas questline where there was a hereic disguised as an inquisitor? that's the sort of person who DRKs go after, people who abuse their position to do things like declare people heretics for daring to challenge their authority ("dude, you're going to push someone off a cliff for being near a piece of dragon themed jewelery?" "that sounds like what a heretic would say, you go off the cliff too.")

I'm not going to spoil the truth about Fray's identity... so, probably best to stay away from various topics discussing Dark Knights.

Anyway, Dark Knights are not officially sanctioned or sponsored by the Church. Their main goal is to strike down criminals the law won't or can't touch; essentially they're vigilantes, and have no formal structure due to the way the job came into existence and the nature of their work. They do come into conflict with the Church at times, but try to remain on the down low because what they do is technically illegal.

Dark Knights are the Chaotic Good faction in Ishgurad.

The Temple Knights, Noblemen, Clergy, and espescially the Inquisition all have extreem amounts of corruption and have a bad habbit of violatong the rights of the "Low Borns" and hiding behind their status and positions to avoid punishment.

The Dark Knights are the nessisary evil of Ishguard. They bring those who make the law to true justice. In most, if not all cases, with the sharp end of theor great swords and the shadowy powers of their Dark Arts.

Dark Knights are the Batman of Eoreza.

Wonder if we'll ever hear about or see/meet other DRKs in the lore/game, though I'd love to see more of "Fray" in the future too

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Originally Posted by Kurashiki

Wonder if we'll ever hear about or see/meet other DRKs in the lore/game, though I'd love to see more of "Fray" in the future too

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That will depend on if they decide to keep job quests in the game going forward. Assuming those new job quests make us go to the new areas, they have to contrive some sort of reason for them to go there to meet up with us to give us quests for new abilities.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

That will depend on if they decide to keep job quests in the game going forward. Assuming those new job quests make us go to the new areas, they have to contrive some sort of reason for them to go there to meet up with us to give us quests for new abilities.

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Well I'm sure for most of them they can set up out posts. It'd be retarded to abandon a job class just because we go to, say, Oethard.

New contenent/Nation, new job npc. It's really that simple.

Dark Knights are the ones who watch the Watchmen.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Well I'm sure for most of them they can set up out posts. It'd be retarded to abandon a job class just because we go to, say, Oethard.

New contenent/Nation, new job npc. It's really that simple.

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They don't really need to leave Eoerzea. The SCH job quests in Heavensward still largely took place in La Noscea.

Same with Warrior.

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Originally Posted by Kurashiki

Wonder if we'll ever hear about or see/meet other DRKs in the lore/game, though I'd love to see more of "Fray" in the future too

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I am so sick of "Fray" and "his" Angsty Teen's First Nietzche philosophical spiels. Yes I know the secret about him that's what makes him extra annoying.

And what makes him that way?

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

And what makes him that way?

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we do. with our vigilante heroics and being too nice.

Fray is angsty? good thing got a emo haircut as seen in my portrait

Fray is not angsty, s/he is just sick and tired of everyone lumping their shit onto the Warrior of Light.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Fray is not angsty, s/he is just sick and tired of everyone lumping their shit onto the Warrior of Light.

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"Oh woah is me for I am a slave to the small folk when I choose ot be a hero. WOah is me that i cannot conceve of turning my back on them. WOah is me I must save myself from being selfless. I must teach you half assed misunderstood Neitzche and Randian Objectivism to teach you that you are a slave to the Moochers... woah is me.. I will save you from yourself!"

Its exactly the sort of immature shit you'd get from an angsty teen who just discovered Nietzche and Rand.

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Originally Posted by jomoru

"Oh woah is me for I am a slave to the small folk when I choose ot be a hero.

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You didn't choose. Hydaelyn chose you. There's an important distinction between "I want to do this" and "I am being forced to do this".

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Originally Posted by fm_fenrir

You didn't choose. Hydaelyn chose you. There's an important distinction between "I want to do this" and "I am being forced to do this".

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Hydaelyn doen't force anything. She at best is can be mildly annoying at you by spamming you with vague visions. The first choice you have in game is to say why your character is doing it, wealth, glory to help people etc. You choose to be an adventurer. You litterally choose to take every quest. Now the Lure of xp and treasure is given but there is always a choice and that's what makes his whole premise annoying.

More to the point all the "Problematic" stuff Fray tries to show you as reasons to quit the sort of quests that cover are generally NOT the ones pushed by Hydaelyn. When in the game does Hydaelyn push you to go after random bandits? To save women getting raped?

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Originally Posted by jomoru

More to the point all the "Problematic" stuff Fray tries to show you as reasons to quit the sort of quests that cover are generally NOT the ones pushed by Hydaelyn. When in the game does Hydaelyn push you to go after random bandits? To save women getting raped?

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Some of it's also just nonsensical. A caravan of people was captured by amalj'aa and were going to be sacrificed to Ifrit, and Fray wants to leave them to their fate... which directly benefits a primal as they'll probably be tempered and sent against Ul'dah. He refuses to do stuff out of spite, not any actual reasoning.

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Originally Posted by jomoru

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You are looking too much into extremes here. The entire point behind Fray was to show how taxing being the world's hero can be and how you're essentially used because you're too stubborn to never say no. You're literally the only person who has the power to stand up to primals, the empire, and the ascians and all hell will break loose if you decide to say screw that. The Warrior of Light deep down wishes he/she can just take a break and do what they want for a while without the whole realm running to them to solve their problems. Heck, the entire Fray quest line is a deconstruction of the cliched JRPG hero that always does what is asked of them and never refuses and doesn't question anything.

Methinks you need to relook what "emo" actually means and understand character traits and development rather than spewing what you just said just because you don't like something.

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Originally Posted by jomoru

"Oh woah is me for I am a slave to the small folk when I choose ot be a hero. WOah is me that i cannot conceve of turning my back on them. WOah is me I must save myself from being selfless. I must teach you half assed misunderstood Neitzche and Randian Objectivism to teach you that you are a slave to the Moochers... woah is me.. I will save you from yourself!"

Its exactly the sort of immature shit you'd get from an angsty teen who just discovered Nietzche and Rand.

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I'm sorry. I know I shouldn't, but if you type "woah is me" one more time, the writer in me will have a nervous breakdown. It's "woe." Woe being "to despair" and "woah"(the proper spelling for the expression of shock is whoa) is meant to be used specifically for, well, shock.

Wish we could re do old quest battles level 50 DRK is epic.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

You are looking too much into extremes here. The entire point behind Fray was to show how taxing being the world's hero can be and how you're essentially used because you're too stubborn to never say no. You're literally the only person who has the power to stand up to primals, the empire, and the ascians and all hell will break loose if you decide to say screw that. The Warrior of Light deep down wishes he/she can just take a break and do what they want for a while without the whole realm running to them to solve their problems. Heck, the entire Fray quest line is a deconstruction of the cliched JRPG hero that always does what is asked of them and never refuses and doesn't question anything.

Methinks you need to relook what "emo" actually means and understand character traits and development rather than spewing what you just said just because you don't like something.

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SInce we've spoiled this whole thing so far, Fray being your character is whining about actions that s/he ultimately chooses to take. S/he isn't complaining about fighting Leviathan(except that people aren't grateful enough) or The Garleans, or Hydaelyn of Minfilia's lazy ass. He isn't complaining about doing the world saving stuff. He's complaining about the side stuff. He's complaining about stuff you generally have no need to do whatsoever inorder to progress. He's complaining about you not going "Not my problem" when you see a woman being dragged off to get raped.

So yeah he's whinny, No he doesn't have a point. And the big thing, the whole damn storyline is about refuting him. That the people do what they can to help you. Hell by that point in the game how many people have laid down their life for you? Every Scion?

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Originally Posted by Soldowner

I'm sorry. I know I shouldn't, but if you type "woah is me" one more time, the writer in me will have a nervous breakdown. It's "woe." Woe being "to despair" and "woah"(the proper spelling for the expression of shock is whoa) is meant to be used specifically for, well, shock.

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Its intentional, the whinny teen who can't spell is what i was going for. Sorry.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

Some of it's also just nonsensical. A caravan of people was captured by amalj'aa and were going to be sacrificed to Ifrit, and Fray wants to leave them to their fate... which directly benefits a primal as they'll probably be tempered and sent against Ul'dah. He refuses to do stuff out of spite, not any actual reasoning.

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Not exactly. Fray actually has reason to not help the caravan, and it's not purely out of spite.

The caravan went into amalj'aa territory, unarmed, despite knowing the amalj'aa are belligerent and almost entirely tempered by Ifrit. In other words, it was their arrogance and stupidity that led to their capture by the amalj'aa; we're just a tool who happened to be in the right place at the right time to bail them out (re: save themselves from their own stupidity), and our kindness and generosity is taken advantage of.

Yet again.

The point behind most of Fray's anger is that people should learn to do for themselves instead of relying on the Warrior of Light to fix all their problems, especially given how some of those people treat the Warrior of Light when s/he goes out of his/her way to do favors for them (Limsan Merchant Guy). We get, at best, pocket change and a new weapon (that we may not even want or need) for risking our lives.

... and yes, while much of what we do isn't mandated by Hydaelyn (only the MSQ is), the implication is that if we refuse to help anyone and everyone we can (like a good hero) we'll lose her favor, and with it the power to protect.

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Originally Posted by jomoru

Its intentional, the whinny teen who can't spell is what i was going for. Sorry.

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Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't notice the quotation marks. Sorry! >.<

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Originally Posted by jomoru

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I'd like to challenge that assessment, and seeing as the cat's been let out of the bag I see no reason to hide spoilers.

While Fray never complains about having the weight of the world on your shoulders, that's arguably the point: s/he says you should recognize that which is important, and forsake all that which is not. In other words, look at the big picture (saving Eorzea / Hydaelyn) instead of trying to sort out all the little details (saving an idiotic caravan from themselves). It's a flawed viewpoint to be sure, but it remains fairly consistent. ("I have important, world-shaking matters to deal with, and some merchant wants me to go get his stuff back from Quirin brigands because he was too stupid or cheap to hire some bodyguards?! /sigh...")

In case you missed the DRK INTRO QUEST, Fray never says you should go "not my problem" when faced with innocents being abused. The very first thing we do is save a woman being abused by Temple Knights. It's the powerless that Fray wants to help - which also ties into most of the quests. The caravan could have armed themselves, and it was a boneheaded move not to because everyone knows the amalj'aa are belligerent and territorial. The Limsan merchant could have hired security, but did not because he was too stupid or cheap to do so. The Ishgardian knights could have taken on the gigas themselves, but they did not because they were afraid of casualties. Every single one of these are instances of someone's stupidity or incompetence coming back to bite them, and then we swoop in and save the day. In other words, it's reinforcing the belief that it's OK to be a nincompoop because the Warrior of Light will always be there to save your hide.

The Ishgardian maiden is truly powerless, and as a Dark Knight Fray wishes to put down the Temple Knights abusing their power. The rest of the people we "help" we essentially save from their own stupidity.

The storyline is not about refuting Fray. The storyline is about accepting that, as a part of you, Fray has a point but there is more to you than s/he says. The point is to accept that we are suffering, that we are holding ourselves together with psychological duct tape, and almost nobody sees that (or if they do, they don't really care). The only reason the soldiers of Whitebrim stand behind you is because of the extraordinary circumstance wrought by Fray. If not for that, they'd have treated us like everyone else ("Thanks for the help, here's some pocket change and a new t-shirt. Cheerio!").

The loss of the Scions is part of that psychological damage as well. Yes, they sacrificed themselves for us, but that's an incredibly painful thing to come to terms with. Additionally, whether they did so because you're their friend or you're the Warrior of Light is up for debate. Remember that before "sacrificing" herself, Minfilia's rationale for doing so is that you are "Eorzea's hope," not because you are her friend...

... of course, if all you think about "Fray" is that s/he sounds like an angsty teen who has just discovered nihilism, I can understand why you see him/her that way. It's not as simple as just wanting to say "Everyone [kupo] off and leave me alone," though.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

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I wish I could give infinity likes for this. To add what Cilia said, the Fray quest lines show not only you can't always save everyone, but that trying to do so will create what I like to call the "Superman Effect" where people stop trying to exercise caution and learn to not fend for themselves because their beloved superhero will take care of everything. Almost like in real life where some people decide not to fix anything themselves because "God will take care of everything." Fray wants you to look at the big picture rather than being everyone's personal doormat. Heck, go look at Final Fantasy X-2 where Shinra calls Yuna a doormat because she wants to save everyone and do everything to be everyone's hero.

But if you want to keep insist that the Warrior of Light is just whining, then fine. I believe that he/she earned that right to whine after all the garbage they gone through.

Since I've explained this much, I think I'll get back on my soapbox and further elucidate the relationship between "Fray" and the Warrior of Light. Just my interpretation, buuuuuut...

"Fray" isn't evil you. S/he isn't jackass you. S/he isn't selfish you. S/he isn't dark you. "Fray" is literally you - just without the mask of polite society to keep your emotions in check. Everything s/he says and does is a reflection of the Warrior of Light's innermost desires; s/he even says s/he only possessed Fray because you wanted someone to teach you the dark arts, that you might be free to punish the unjust. S/he points out you're probably annoyed at having to do largely meaningless tasks because someone else said so (DRK 35). S/he points out that, beneath the mask of heroism, some part of you only helps people because it's a means to further your abilities and you get to fight and kill (DRK 40 / 45). S/he blasts people like you wish you could for being ungrateful jerks (DRK 45). S/he gets pissed off at the Whitebrim soldiers for refusing to leave you be and insisting you help them with their job (DRK 50).

At the same time, "Fray" shows negative emotions as well. Aside from the obvious aggression and irritability, s/he shows solemn contemplation before the fight in the DRK 45 quest, and s/he seems genuinely sad and remorseful over your decision after the climactic battle in the 50 quest.

"Fray" is you - a reflection of your heart, just without the mask of civility to hide or whitewash the darker aspects of your personality. S/he offers you your ultimate, deepest, darkest wish: freedom from the burden of being Eorzea's savior, and despairs when you accept your role as Hydaelyn's tool. S/he loves helping and saving people, but for the wrong reasons that you are probably motivated by; instead of wanting to protect the innocent, s/he wants to punish the wicked, something apparent in the 30, 40, and 45 quests, and uses the excuse of "saving people" to fight, kill, and test your limits.

"Fray" is your shadow... your true self, or at least an amalgamation of the feelings and personality traits you most want to deny exist within you. I pointed this out in another DRK topic (and someone copied what I wrote on the subject into "Fray's" section of the Characters page up there on TV Tropes).

Alternatively, given his/her feelings often mirror player sentiments, you could say "Fray" gets kind of meta and is a representation of the average player of XIV.

Cilia, you aren't an alt for Anonymoose are you? :P

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Cilia, you aren't an alt for Anonymoose are you? :P

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I wish. Then I could go to conventions and stuff instead of being a loser who lives in his parents' figurative basement on a quickly ticking clock...

... err... then I could be the first responder to questions. (I'm not as knowledgeable as Moose-senpai since I didn't play 1.x and tend not to get there as fast so I don't answer questions if he's already provided one I think is sufficient. Which is often.)

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Originally Posted by Cilia

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I thought that was familiar in tv tropes under fray when i read it the other day LOL.

edit: god damn it and i said i wasn't going to post on this thread just read and follow it *sighs* seeing as I tend to agree with Cilia on the whole thing behind Fray (when i'm not crying over the 50 quest again)