Red Mage, again?

Just throwing another idea about Red Mage into the mix. :)

Base class something like Fencer (with Rapier, Epee, etc) for weapons. No shield
Fencer has no specific MP-using abilities, other than standard cross
Needs Thaumaturge 15 for soul crystal, with additional cross from Arcanist

Fencer (a DoW) uses STR for damage with light armor (like PUG)
Red Mage (a DoM) uses INT for damage with cloth armor (like THA)

L30 RDM ability would be a defense boost (Enstone/ self-Protect/Stoneskin)
Other job skills would be En-element named attacks as a third combo action (Enfire/Damage+, Enfrost/Slow, Enthunder/DOT, etc).

All future jobs aren't going to have a base class IIRC, just start off as a level 30+ job.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

All future jobs aren't going to have a base class IIRC, just start off as a level 30+ job.

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Probably.

Them doing it for Heavensward doesn't mean they will always do it, unless you've some source I missed or forgot about.

That said, if it isn't an "extra Job" It probably wouldn't be switching from DoW to DoM. They treat Jobs as the same thing as Classes for the purpose of categorizing them.

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Originally Posted by ChazNatlo

Probably.

Them doing it for Heavensward doesn't mean they will always do it, unless you've some source I missed or forgot about.

That said, if it isn't an "extra Job" It probably wouldn't be switching from DoW to DoM. They treat Jobs as the same thing as Classes for the purpose of categorizing them.

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I remember people saying classes were just a relic from 1.x, but due to the fairly limited development time for 2.0 they couldn't get rid of them entirely. Even so, it's safe to assume they'll be gone permanently, they're nothing but wasted development time. They could have been interesting, having both classes and their job version be useful as a 2nd specialization from WoW or something, but they didn't go that route. That paired up with all 3 new jobs being classless... I'd say it's pretty safe to assume. There's a possibility we'd get more jobs tied to existing classes if they ever figure it out the Scholar and Summoner issue, but I doubt it.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

There's a possibility we'd get more jobs tied to existing classes if they ever figure it out the Scholar and Summoner issue, but I doubt it.

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Just curious, cuz I love my butterfly wrangler ;) ... What's the issue with scholar/summoner?

Scholar and Summoner share the same base class, Arcanist, which means that whatever stats you set for one will be the same for the other.

This is a really big problem considering Summoner uses Intelligence while Scholar uses Mind. You either max one and gimp the other, or you half-ass both of them. Neither is a good solution.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

I remember people saying classes were just a relic from 1.x, but due to the fairly limited development time for 2.0 they couldn't get rid of them entirely. Even so, it's safe to assume they'll be gone permanently, they're nothing but wasted development time. They could have been interesting, having both classes and their job version be useful as a 2nd specialization from WoW or something, but they didn't go that route. That paired up with all 3 new jobs being classless... I'd say it's pretty safe to assume. There's a possibility we'd get more jobs tied to existing classes if they ever figure it out the Scholar and Summoner issue, but I doubt it.

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I wouldn't discount classes being released in the future, they did so with rogue/ninja and that was pretty late into ARR development cycle. It may however be less common.

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Originally Posted by Moonleg

Scholar and Summoner share the same base class, Arcanist, which means that whatever stats you set for one will be the same for the other.

This is a really big problem considering Summoner uses Intelligence while Scholar uses Mind. You either max one and gimp the other, or you half-ass both of them. Neither is a good solution.

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More to the point, because both of them are balanced against separate Jobs, but share a number of the same skills, keeping them both balanced against their respective roles is a delicate tight rope walk. The shared skills hurts, but it was less of an issue from a design perspective.

Watch Ilbred be the Red Mage Trainer. Haha

Someone is living in 1.0, get with modern times there are no classes in Heavensward, there never will be again I think if they could figure out an equitable way to eliminate classes without the complete overhaul they would, but classes are married to the 1.0 system and divorce is not an option. If Redmage is added it will either start as redmage at level 1 or redmage at level 30 personally after the frustration of starting a completely foreign job at level 30 with no lead up I hope it's level 1.

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Originally Posted by AdamuKun322

Watch Ilbred be the Red Mage Trainer. Haha

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RDM weapon confirmed to be Raubahn's actual left arm.

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Originally Posted by Moonleg

Scholar and Summoner share the same base class, Arcanist, which means that whatever stats you set for one will be the same for the other.

This is a really big problem considering Summoner uses Intelligence while Scholar uses Mind. You either max one and gimp the other, or you half-ass both of them. Neither is a good solution.

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OK. :) I just purchased a bonus stat point respec from my GC, so I didn't notice. Guess that matters only if you intend to keep swapping between summoner and scholar.

You know what would be funny and just drive people crazy? If they made Red Mage a great class. For the sake of argument a DPS with a heavy bit of support, really great skills, high end damage spells, cool looking melee DPS, even some healing and party healing spells, the works.... but in keeping with the lore of the Red Mage they make a third its skills INT, a third MND, and the other third STR. Make players split their bonus points three ways.... 3 Primary stats.

The Red Mage is a jack-of-all-trades, but a master of none.

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Originally Posted by ErikMynhier

You know what would be funny and just drive people crazy? If they made Red Mage a great class. For the sake of argument a DPS with a heavy bit of support, really great skills, high end damage spells, cool looking melee DPS, even some healing and party healing spells, the works.... but in keeping with the lore of the Red Mage they make a third its skills INT, a third MND, and the other third STR. Make players split their bonus points three ways.... 3 Primary stats.

The Red Mage is a jack-of-all-trades, but a master of none.

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Which makes them a great Tank. There is no such thing as a person who can do everything in this game unfortunately.

He would be either underpowered and nobody would want one, or overpowered and he would replace everyone if he could be everything.

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Originally Posted by AdamuKun322

Watch Ilbred be the Red Mage Trainer. Haha

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Unintentional or not, that typo is hilarious.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Which makes them a great Tank. There is no such thing as a person who can do everything in this game unfortunately.

He would be either underpowered and nobody would want one, or overpowered and he would replace everyone if he could be everything.

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Yeah man, I was just making light of how they could implement it and as they do with most jobs, make the community lose their minds. It would be like the Summoner/Scholar in the same job, it would be hilarious.

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Originally Posted by Moonleg

Scholar and Summoner share the same base class, Arcanist, which means that whatever stats you set for one will be the same for the other.

This is a really big problem considering Summoner uses Intelligence while Scholar uses Mind. You either max one and gimp the other, or you half-ass both of them. Neither is a good solution.

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There's this little thing calle a Keeper's Hymn you can buy for 250 seals at your GC Hq. Trade in one piece of i160 from your expert roulette and you can buy 3. 'Nuff said about the SCH/SMN issue.

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

There's this little thing calle a Keeper's Hymn you can buy for 250 seals at your GC Hq. Trade in one piece of i160 from your expert roulette and you can buy 3. 'Nuff said about the SCH/SMN issue.

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But the point is you shouldn't have to be doing that every single time. That's just a lazy band aid fix to ignore the problem at hand.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Which makes them a great Tank. There is no such thing as a person who can do everything in this game unfortunately.

He would be either underpowered and nobody would want one, or overpowered and he would replace everyone if he could be everything.

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I'd typically assume that a Tank would need to be a master of tanking.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

But the point is you shouldn't have to be doing that every single time. That's just a lazy band aid fix to ignore the problem at hand.

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Also that while that is annoying, the issue with the split classes is balancing them, not playing them.

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

There's this little thing calle a Keeper's Hymn you can buy for 250 seals at your GC Hq. Trade in one piece of i160 from your expert roulette and you can buy 3. 'Nuff said about the SCH/SMN issue.

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Oh no no no. That is nowhere NEAR enough said. Why should Scholar and Summoner be the only ones that need to pay 250 seals to be useful if you've played the other? From now on, let's make it so any class change sets the stats on the class you're going to in the worst possible stat for that class, so you have to reset and manually set them every time.

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Originally Posted by ChazNatlo

I'd typically assume that a Tank would need to be a master of tanking.

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not really? there are 3 tanks now. PLD takes the least physical damage, DRK takes the least magical damage, WAR does the most damage of the 3 tanks, and all of them can tank everything and not die. how are any of them masters of tanking?

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

There's this little thing calle a Keeper's Hymn you can buy for 250 seals at your GC Hq. Trade in one piece of i160 from your expert roulette and you can buy 3. 'Nuff said about the SCH/SMN issue.

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Yeah, cause I should totally have to waste GC seals that I use for ventures and crafting materials.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

not really? there are 3 tanks now. PLD takes the least physical damage, DRK takes the least magical damage, WAR does the most damage of the 3 tanks, and all of them can tank everything and not die. how are any of them masters of tanking?

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I confess I anticipated this.

When a person says "Jack of all trades, master of none" they usually don't mean that the person is able to be as good as anything that isn't the absolute paragon of it's art.

When I say "Master of tanking" I'm referring to the fact that the classes are within the level of excellence, not that they are first among equals. They are sitting with fellow masters. By contrast to say, a Dragoon, that can survive tanking longer than a Black Mage, but is not a master of it. ((Que "Unless they're tanking the floor" jokes))

I should clarify that whatever the role it is, it'll need to be optimized to that role, so "Jack of all trades, master of none." isn't going to be apt in a system which features specified roles. I don't think Redmage Can't be a tank ((Though I confess it is an odd fit)) I just don't think "A tank works great as a master of none." is a good argument.

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Originally Posted by Moonleg

Oh no no no. That is nowhere NEAR enough said. Why should Scholar and Summoner be the only ones that need to pay 250 seals to be useful if you've played the other? From now on, let's make it so any class change sets the stats on the class you're going to in the worst possible stat for that class, so you have to reset and manually set them every time.

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To be fair, I still feel like I'm cheating when I'm able to level both Scholar and Summoner at the same time. It would seem that convenience comes with a price which is the necessity to reallocate your attribute points if you truly wish to maximize both whenever you play one or the other. If experience became tied to the jobs themselves rather than class, perhaps then they would have separate attribute allocation. Or at least that seems to be SE's way of thinking.

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Originally Posted by ChazNatlo

I should clarify that whatever the role it is, it'll need to be optimized to that role, so "Jack of all trades, master of none." isn't going to be apt in a system which features specified roles. I don't think Redmage Can't be a tank ((Though I confess it is an odd fit)) I just don't think "A tank works great as a master of none." is a good argument.

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no, it's not a great argument. but a tank is best equipped to be a jack of all trades, DPS has to sacrifice Healing, Healers have to sacrifice DPS. what WARs are right now is closest to how RDM should function.

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Originally Posted by TThibi

the frustration of starting a completely foreign job at level 30 with no lead up I hope it's level 1.

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I see this a lot, And yet i cannot understand it.
I unlocked the new Jobs, cleared the default skill placements, read the tooltips, arranged them comfortably and then went out to Little Ala Mhigo to practice a bit on the undeads with the crazy HP.

About 10~ or so minutes getting comfortable with a standard rotation i was good to go Dungeoneering. I'll take that over spending bunch of hours leveling from 1.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

I see this a lot, And yet i cannot understand it.
I unlocked the new Jobs, cleared the default skill placements, read the tooltips, arranged them comfortably and then went out to Little Ala Mhigo to practice a bit on the undeads with the crazy HP.

About 10~ or so minutes getting comfortable with a standard rotation i was good to go Dungeoneering. I'll take that over spending bunch of hours leveling from 1.

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even if it's a little bit of a problem, the solution doesn't have to be start them at Lv 1, you can simply make them go through all/half the Guildhests before they can queue for other stuff. that's more than enough to learn everything.