So...why is there still a Nocturnal stance?

Maybe someone can explain this to me, but last I checked...

-None of AST's shields stack with SCH's shields
-All of AST's regen effects stack with WHM's regen effects

Has that changed? If not, why do we still even have Noct stance?

The other thing is that AST's abilities that extend the duration of buffs make loads of sense for regens, but next to none for shields.

Regens only become more beneficial the longer they get because they provide extra ticks. Shields don't get any bigger, and while it never HURTS to extend their effects, the odds are against the shield lasting to its full duration anyway.

Now that we have the "double bubble", what do we need Noct stance for...? (not that 10% less damage in exchange for being unable to do anything was even remotely worth it before...)

EDIT: Oh yeah, double AST, but they could just fix that by making their regens stack (double WHM HoTs stack) and then what would we need Noct for?

Is this another bait or troll topic?

I think it's mostly because if you have two AST in a party, their HoT's don't stack. :B
Noct does hold a special place in PvP though... >o>

People should consider that double regen is just overhealing, nothing really necessary. Most of the ticks will heal full hp People.

I think I'd prefer to use Noct now when paired with a WHM anyway. Very powerful heals, a nice instant cast heal/shield, and I can still take advantage of timely hot's with C/O.

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

I think it's mostly because if you have two AST in a party, their HoT's don't stack. :B
Noct does hold a special place in PvP though... >o>

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True, though they could just make them stack and then what do we need Noct for?

I believe WHM's HoTs stack with two WHMs, though I've not checked in a while...

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Is this another bait or troll topic?

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Not at all. Even with its buffs, Noct just feels underwhelming.

You get massive benefit from time dilating a tank with both your HoTs running on them. Shield? It'll be gone in 1-2 hits tops anyway...

I use Noc Sect usually when I'm in a dungeon with another AST, and if the people are scrub dpsing/burning.

It is also godly in PvP. I have been chased by 4-5 people kiting them 1/2 the map and getting away until they pop LB

With the adjustments they've made, I more or less consider Nocturnal the "Heavy front loaded healing at high MP cost". Aspected Benefic and Benefic II have similar potency / MP now with these changes and AST can now front load a lot of healing but be a heavy burden on their MP.

I still don't like it right now, but it feels more defined than it was before. It also feels more like the buffing stances as you'll be trying to use Time Dilation and Celestial Opposition on cards versus these abilities can also extend HoTs in Diurnal, making it slightly more complicated to think about.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

True, though they could just make them stack and then what do we need Noct for?

I believe WHM's HoTs stack with two WHMs, though I've not checked in a while...

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WHM's HoTs do stack.
I think them keeping the sects has more to do with that fact that they advertised the whole stance-dance stuff when they first revealed the job.

Well how often are you going to time dilate anyway?

I usually time dilate my cards, not the HOTs.

It's not like the entire class revolves around time dilation....

Sometimes shields are nice

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Originally Posted by Ashelia_Ferron

Well how often are you going to time dilate anyway?

I usually time dilate my cards, not the HOTs.

It's not like the entire class revolves around time dilation....

Sometimes shields are nice

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If I draw Bole, I'll place a Aspected Benefic on the tank before Time Dilating them.

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

If I draw Bole, I'll place a Aspected Benefic on the tank before Time Dilating them.

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Oh of course, I mean if I'm using Diurnal, I'll try to get the most value out of my stuff, but it's not a deal breaker at all.

Half the time I time dilate Balance or something on a DPS

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

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It's simply really;
Even a singular form of mitigation, be it Stoneskin or a shielding spell, can prevent a potential death
No amount of regen can prevent said death within the same parameters.

Nocturnal Sect aspected benefic has a potency of 262. As the shield effect holds 130% value of whatever was healed, it generates a shield for 340 potency. Adloquium, on the other hand, has 300 potency and an equal strength shield. If both spell do not crit, aspected benefic would possess more potency. If the spells do crit, Adloquium would possess more potency. However, as the crit rate stat value is rather... poor... at the moment, I'd say aspected benefic provides a more reliable shield than adloquium right now. So yes, Nocturnal stance got a good buff here - Although not in the right way imo.

So what if both stacked; You'd have a 640 potency shield on the spot. Add in a stoneskin and you'd have enough mitigation for at least 5500 points of damage (not accounting crit). Tank busters are diminished to mere fluff attacks. Succor and aspected helios stacking? Why, A3S muscle-man-waves would make Terry Crews cry. So I'll repeat: Stacking regen doesn't prevent deaths direcetly. I'll admit it can, given the damage doesn't come before the next tick kicks in.

There's another thing of "effectiveness" of the regens. Especially when stacked. See Lordparanoia's post about this.

When progressing proper mitigation makes or breaks an attempt. If the party (or tanks in particular) does not possess enough gear to -just- survive whatever attack, mitigation will make that possible. Did I mention that no amount regen can help here?

Lastly; Nocturnal Sect aspected benefic is possibly one of the spells I personally appreciate the most; It's perfect for sniping players who missed the AoE healing (especially noticable in A1S), weave two healing spells to have effect in a fraction of a second or to toss out before going into cleric's. It's practically Lustrate* and can be used as Lustrate - And just like Lustrate, you shouldn't be relying on this too much or spamming it all over the place.

* You could argue "Lustrate is free", but it's not. One stack used on Energy Drain is equal to 884 MP. When that stack is used on Lustrate, you miss out on said amount of MP (under assumption the ability hits)

edit:
More about crit value in this topic: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...56#post3242356

Noct Sect is amazing in PvP, if you use Fending accessories you're nearly impossible to kill even with Melee LB. Noct Sect is also nice in A2S even if your co-healer is a SCH, the regen is going to cause hate with waves spawning and give your tanks a tough time so you're better off with the flat % heal increase from Noct.

Nocturnal Sect really isn't bad at all anymore. It's a fairly decent alternative to having a Scholar in most respects.

Aspected Helios always was, and still is, a perfectly acceptable alternative to Succor.
Aspected Benefic used to be an absolutely terrible alternative to Adloquium; now it is arguably the stronger of the two.
Having access to Benefic II and Helios is the equivalent of having Emergency Tactics with zero cooldown.
GCD heals as a whole are now significantly more MP-efficient than their Scholar equivalents, without sacrificing any power - in fact a few are more powerful.

The 5% Nocturnal Sect potency bonus is, to be sure, significantly weaker than having Embrace, but that's balanced out by having an overall stronger suite of baseline GCD healing.


Scholar's Aetherflow-consumer healing toolkit is fairly evenly matched with the new AST cooldown suite of Collective Unconscious, Synastry, and Essential Dignity. Lustrate/Soil/Indomitability rules the roost in terms of moment-to-moment versatility, as Scholar has always done, but AST having discrete cooldowns means that their skills typically don't have the opportunity costs that Scholar has to deal with, and Synastry/CU/ED tend to beat Scholar's tools in sheer power.

And while it's generally not an apples-to-apples comparison, the AST cards are about on par with the non-Embrace fairly skills, when it comes to the magnitude and variety of effects.



I don't expect to see many Nocturnal Sect Astrologians taking the place of Scholars in serious progression, but that's no longer due to any real deficiency in their ability to heal and shield; it comes down entirely to Scholars just being so well-suited to DPS that it's very difficult to imagine any dedicated healing class/job being able to catch up in a meaningful way. There are adjustments you could make to Astrologian to try to close that gap, but the problem doesn't really have anything to do with Sect choice, and neither would the solution.

I need to try more scenarios with Noct, but my early impression is that it's a hell of a lot more fun than it was before. The change to Collective Unconscious (being able to throw it up, have the Regen buff hit once, then abandon it) eases the MP burden and helps provide extra cushion for DPS, and the increased shielding potency on Aspected Benefic was appreciated.

Granted, both AST sects still lack the elegant emergency options of a SCH or a WHM, but if the card buffs prove truly impactful, the trade-off of extra planning and careful CD juggling might be worth it.

I would imagine it's mostly there for raid-level fights where the shield mitigation is necessary to survive tank busters. It doesn't synergize as well with the rest of AST's kit as Diurnal does, but it's capable of fulfilling that healer role now, when it wasn't before.

Dont forget our ST shield is instant cast with a small heal. Its extremely amazing spot healing on fights or long segments of heavy movement, or when you need to get a shield up asap to prevent a dps from possibly dying.

On a tank its not as beneficial, simply because it'll power through your mana, but the 5% potency helps with the other healing forms as well. Its nice to precast a benefic I or II and then insta pop an aspected beneficic, heals nearly anyone to full and plops a nice shield on top of it.

It's also worth noting that using Time Dilation on Aspected Benefic doesn't really improve it's healing potential, but just gives a "free" refresh of the regen portion of the effect. It's roughly equivalent to just recasting Aspected Benefic for free; it's hardly as ground breaking or "massive" as you make it seem. Nocturnal does have it's uses, and I think it'll be more complimentary to WHM's HoTs now with the increased potency. Keep in mind, it increases the potency of Benefic I/II and Helios, as well. Overall, I don't think Nocturnal Sect is as bad as people make it out to be, especially since the baseline shielding is now higher than Adloquium or Succor.

I quite enjoy Nocturnal stance - while I understand the argument about time dilation not adding value to the shield the way it adds healing in the way of extended ticks of the HoT in Diurnal, somehow it no longer bothers me with today's buffs, whereas before I was quite salty about it ;)

While unimportant from a progression standpoint, I love it in dungeons because I don't have to worry about "is that Tank going to pull with all those HoTs still running?...CRAP YES HE IS.." hehe.

This is a joke right?

It's because people who do White mage/AST parties would be completely screwed in the mandatory mitigation department without it. I thought that was obvious.

Since getting Time Dilation, admittedly only the other day, I have never even considered wasting the cooldown on a free Regen refresh ...

I used it exclusively for boosting durations of Extended Balance, Bole or Arrow. Its even better now, as i can push an Extended Balance on a DPS to 75 seconds.
When you consider that Blood for Blood is only 10% for non DRGs, Its literally 4 back to back BfBs. Thats friggen amazing, ad worth so much more than an free Regen refresh.

Personally, i loved SCH in 2.x, So i have preferred Noct Sect since getting it at 50. Benefic II with Aspected Benefic immediately after is a combined potency of 900, and THEN you get a Shield on top. For burst healing, Its kind of amazing.
Diurnal certainly has had its time in the limelight though, Its great for certain bosses that do predictable waves of smallish damage, or DoTs like second boss in Aery.

If theres a SCH in my party when im doing Trial/MSQ Roulette, I'll happily take the role of Regen provider, and Shield provider if theres a WHM. Or whatever the other AST isn't using.
That flexibility has felt great to me so far. So i really cannot understand people claiming one Sect is worthless over the other.

When you use time dilation it extends your card buffs and your regens so it's not really wasting it. But I've always said I wish time dilation did something useful for shields :(

It's not really that amazing though, just a nifty trick you can do in diurnal.

Im absolutely switching to using diurnal with SCH, and nocturnal with WHM. Nocturnal is now really powerful.

Nocturnal is amazing now, I even use it in 4 man dungeons during mob pulls, the shielding helps a lot especially with tanks who stance dance and the mitigation on hate is amazing...the sects are all about how you like to play the class now that things have changed.

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

Nocturnal is amazing now, I even use it in 4 man dungeons during mob pulls, the shielding helps a lot especially with tanks who stance dance and the mitigation on hate is amazing...the sects are all about how you like to play the class now that things have changed.

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Yep, I agree. I been using it a lot for 4 man parties. Although it can be rough on your mp pools.

I was talking on reddit about it and got a weird response. "Your a idiot if you heavily use A.Bene with Noct" "You should only ever use it vs tank busters". Honestly this seems silly to me. Why bother using Noct if your never going to use A.Bene ? Sure SCH can get away with it due to how OP fairies are. I think problem is people are trying to play Noct AST like SCH way to much.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

With the adjustments they've made, I more or less consider Nocturnal the "Heavy front loaded healing at high MP cost". Aspected Benefic and Benefic II have similar potency / MP now with these changes and AST can now front load a lot of healing but be a heavy burden on their MP.

I still don't like it right now, but it feels more defined than it was before. It also feels more like the buffing stances as you'll be trying to use Time Dilation and Celestial Opposition on cards versus these abilities can also extend HoTs in Diurnal, making it slightly more complicated to think about.

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Yeah thats how I see Noct AST as well. Overall potency of A.Bene is slightly higher then Bene II at same MP cost. Its interesting playstyle that offers a more mobile healer. As you say playing this way is MP costly. But I dont thinks its unmanageable.

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

Nocturnal is amazing now, I even use it in 4 man dungeons during mob pulls, the shielding helps a lot especially with tanks who stance dance and the mitigation on hate is amazing...the sects are all about how you like to play the class now that things have changed.

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It was always about ur team comp and how you like to play.
The only thing that did change is tht non ast players will hate u less cuz they dont understand u like jane and tarzan.

Aspected benefic on nocturnal sect is easily the most broken single target heal at the moment (and I mean by far lol).
An instant cast Adloquium with like 50% less MP cost (707)? Ridiculous on so many levels.

Go try it in PVP, you'll have some laughs.