AST and the new Expert dungeons

I've played both SCH and WHM in the past, healing being my main job type in this game so when AST was announced, I was really excited. I've build it up and am ilvl 150 but I'm discovering I'm having issues keeping up in the new expert dungeons. They seem to be AoE heavy and AST AoE heals suck so I'm playing the class more single based like SCH than WHM. The refresh is also terrible. If I don't have a bard with me, you can forget completing the dungeon all together. Without Mage's Ballad, I'm sunk.

Anyone else having these issues? Do you guys have any suggestions, tips or anything else to help?

Thanks so much!

It'll get easier with gear, but as an AST you'll always have a more difficult time than SCH/WHM will.

However, you should stick with diurnal and use the regens. It's still better than noct. Also, if you are having MP issues, make sure to hold spear cards to use on yourself right before using your refresh. And use Ewer on yourself too of course. In AE healing situations, make sure to get use out of Synastry too. It's great for popping on the tank and then single healing the rest of the group.

Are you playing in Diurnal to ensure your HOTs are giving you better MP management? How often are you using Lumin Aether (you should not be waiting until you're already below 50% MP before using it)? Are you using Celestial Opposition to extend your MP refresh? Are you using Ewer cards on yourself?

I've been playing in Dirunal because of the regens. I try to use my MP refresh at about 70% but hadn't thought to add Celestial Opposition to it. I'm definitely going to have to try that. As for the cards, they've not been my friends recently. I'm getting more Spire than anything else. Even when I shuffle, I get yet another Spire. I really wish they'd fix that but that's neither here nor there. I haven't tried the Spear cards on myself but I'll give that a shot too.

The difficulty you are having is due to the 150 ivl, not the fact your job is AST. AST is fine for dungeons - the weakness compared to other healers isn't really relevant until savage level difficulty. With most players geared well over that now, tanks pull pretty aggressively in dungeons which can be hard on a 150 healer.

never tried in nocturnal as much as i want to. but diurnal is just easy easy. well those dungeons are not difficult either way, though i miss the bane from scholar and shadow flare as well, everything is slower because i cant really dps that much.
your ilvl might have something to do with it, it depends on tank too(ilvl), everything will get better as you get better ilvl.

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Originally Posted by Sidra

The difficulty you are having is due to the 150 ivl, not the fact your job is AST. AST is fine for dungeons - the weakness compared to other healers isn't really relevant until savage level difficulty.

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I don't know if I'd agree that it's not really relevant. I have a much easier time healing the Expert dungeons on my SCH than on my AST. AST can clear them and it's not going to hold a group back really, but it's still more difficult to do with AST than the other two. SCH and WHM have an easier time with larger pulls and an easier time DPSing as well, and the differences are noticeable.

That being said, item level is a big factor in this case either way. Upping that will help quite a bit.

The biggest factor in dungeon success will always be the competency of your party.

The game is designed so that ALL healers will go OoM if people are constantly standing in crap and getting hit all the time.

It just happens that AST goes OoM far sooner than SCH or WHM so it's more important that ASTs have good parties, which is one of the reasons they need to buff the class.

If we ASTs will be queuing as healers, then we need to be able to handle the occasional crappy party.

But there are as many bad astros as other dps/tank/healers in the game.

That's the first source of problem the Astrologian job know actually. Look how many players don't manage to correctly use a healing class as easy as the whm. Do you expect them to be able to carry a crappy party as an Astro ?

Actually prefer nocturnal in dungeons pretty heavily. Instant cast shield is just too good.

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Originally Posted by Filemina

Anyone else having these issues? Do you guys have any suggestions, tips or anything else to help?

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60 AST here that took it into dungeons when Law was the best gear but I was mostly still in Greens (but this was before the Lightspeed buff).

Basically it's like others said... AST requires a high efficiency party. The faster DPS kills stuff, the easier it is on your MP. AST definitely has the least endurance so it was important that everyone play as competently as possible -- good DPS, good CD use from tanks, etc.

All that said, with gear it gets vastly easier. If you're in i190+... you shouldn't be having problems unless the party is *really* terrible. Well... just have to deal with those ones sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Mclyde

But there are as many bad astros as other dps/tank/healers in the game.

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I believe that's statistically impossible...

http://i.imgur.com/Tj1agnD.png

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That's the first source of problem the Astrologian job know actually. Look how many players don't manage to correctly use a healing class as easy as the whm. Do you expect them to be able to carry a crappy party as an Astro ?

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There's a colossal difference between the sustained healing output of AST and the other two healers. I played both AST and SCH at 60 with the same ilevel for a while: SCH can blow its mana on DPSing all it wants and it barely matters because they get 20% of it back every minute anyway, and with Bane, SCH DPS is actually pretty damn good.

AST, on the other hand, must conserve mana in case any emergency situations arise, and due to the weaker mana regen, the sustained healing just isn't anywhere near as potent.

I've tested this at length and these were my findings. Both classes are fine if the party is excellent, but SCH just has far more leeway with mana and emergency buttons in case something goes wrong.

Really, there's 0 reason to ever play AST instead of SCH or WHM right now.

People claiming ilvl is the problem are right, but they're also missing the point.

These are ilvl 145 dungeons, you shouldn't be struggling when you're decently above that.

Yes it will get much easier once you outgear these dungeons by a significant amount, but currently the job is lacking and it will hopefully be addressed in the upcoming buffs.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

I believe that's statistically impossible...

http://i.imgur.com/Tj1agnD.png



There's a colossal difference between the sustained healing output of AST and the other two healers. I played both AST and SCH at 60 with the same ilevel for a while: SCH can blow its mana on DPSing all it wants and it barely matters because they get 20% of it back every minute anyway, and with Bane, SCH DPS is actually pretty damn good.

AST, on the other hand, must conserve mana in case any emergency situations arise, and due to the weaker mana regen, the sustained healing just isn't anywhere near as potent.

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I never said the contrary. I said that a lot of players actually don't play very well their sch or whm, so you can't expect them to handle a more difficult class as Astromancien. It's not that usual to see a sch or whm who uses Cleric stance in dungeon.
But some players manage to do well in dungeon with the min ilvl required as Astrologian. You have to take on board their results, not the ones of players in difficulties, cause they don't understand the potential of this job.

Astro has less healing power than his homologues. However... it's not a problem for everyone.
Just sayin' we have to be carefull regarding the forum's complaints.

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Originally Posted by Mclyde

It's not that usual to see a sch or whm who uses Cleric stance in dungeon.

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If you mean while healing, then yes, that's awful.

But when a healer is in a good party and is sitting at mostly full mana, they should absolutely be jumping into CS and adding DPS to the fight.

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However... it's not a problem for everyone.
Just sayin' we have to be carefull regarding the forum's complaints.

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True, complaints will always be louder than they need to be.

But we've seen enough level-headed, analytical feedback from players running Savage who've played as both SCH and AST a while now and we've all come to the same conclusion: you generally CAN do it as an AST, but either of the other healers can do it safer, faster, and typically doing more damage on the side. You CAN, but why would you when it only puts more pressure on the other healer and the rest of your group?

I'm not worried about it, though. They fixed up warriors a while back to put them on par with PLD and I'm sure they'll do the same here.

Yoshi-P wanted to make sure that AST didn't have some crazy exploit that could be used to faceroll Savage on the first week, and I don't blame him in the least. I figure ASTs were going to wind up sitting Savage 1-4 out anyway (at least for world firsts). Let's see what Tues' patch brings us... :)

Op, this is a gear issue. I can't see what other gear you are using but I noticed you have a 145 weapon and I imagine your other gear is equally behind. Any healer would struggle with this. The aoe healing in these dungeons is incredibly light. Even as fresh 60 ast I never had mana issues before the buffs and was able to spam gravity through big pulls. Get the law weapon and update the rest of your gear.

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Originally Posted by PetiteMalFleur

Op, this is a gear issue. I can't see what other gear you are using but I noticed you have a 145 weapon and I imagine your other gear is equally behind. Any healer would struggle with this. The aoe healing in these dungeons is incredibly light. Even as fresh 60 ast I never had mana issues before the buffs and was able to spam gravity through big pulls. Get the law weapon and update the rest of your gear.

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It also has to do with your party. I've had runs where I've healed easily. Then runs where people didn't dodge anything and Im starting to panic as my mana is getting dangerously low.

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Originally Posted by Filemina

I've played both SCH and WHM in the past, healing being my main job type in this game so when AST was announced, I was really excited. I've build it up and am ilvl 150 but I'm discovering I'm having issues keeping up in the new expert dungeons. They seem to be AoE heavy and AST AoE heals suck so I'm playing the class more single based like SCH than WHM. The refresh is also terrible. If I don't have a bard with me, you can forget completing the dungeon all together. Without Mage's Ballad, I'm sunk.

Anyone else having these issues? Do you guys have any suggestions, tips or anything else to help?

Thanks so much!

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I agree that i150 gear won't yield as much healing power as you might be used to. This is especially true if you're dealing with some hotshot tank who doesn't consider the healer's gear before acting like he's Superman. Law & Alexander gear should address this side of the issue.

As far as other issues, I've grown comfortable with Nocturnal Sect. In my mind, it's better to keep the tank from taking too much damage in the first place than to constantly react. Noct Field helps me to do so due to the speed in which I can put up a shield (Something I couldn't do nearly as quickly as a SCH).

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Originally Posted by PetiteMalFleur

Op, this is a gear issue. I can't see what other gear you are using but I noticed you have a 145 weapon and I imagine your other gear is equally behind. Any healer would struggle with this. The aoe healing in these dungeons is incredibly light. Even as fresh 60 ast I never had mana issues before the buffs and was able to spam gravity through big pulls. Get the law weapon and update the rest of your gear.

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The dungeons are iLevel 145. It shouldn't matter that the OP has a 145 weapon, he's already "geared" for the dungeon by having one and being at that iLevel. Everyone's so used to running these dungeons at 170-190 that they seem to forget that they're extremely overgeared.

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Originally Posted by Mclyde

It's not that usual to see a sch or whm who uses Cleric stance in dungeon.

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Hang on, are you implying using CS in a dungeon is bad? Cause I spend more time in CS than out of it on my SCH, and I promise you it's not a bad thing.

I suggest for the OP to take Diurnal stance. It's more efficient in MP cost than Noct, especially the Aspected Helios. If your party constantly gets heavy damage then it's not AST's fault, other healers will struggle as well with that kind of party. There's always Lightspeed+Helios+Helios+Helios if somehow needed but personally, up until now, I've been running ex dr as AST and I've never used Lightspeed in that fashion.

As for MP management, well, one thing that I noticed that if you spam Benefic II, you'll run out of MP in no time. So, for me, I'll just use AB, AH (in Diurnal stance) and Benefic I, occasionally Benefic II, If Enhanced Benefic procs, I can put a burst healing for up to 11K HP (Benefic I+Benefic II). About LA, like everyone said, you should use it with The Spear if possible, if not use it when your MP is at 70%, 50% if CO is still up. Also, if you draw The Ewer, don't burn it, use it on yourself. It helps a lot! :)

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

If you mean while healing, then yes, that's awful.

But when a healer is in a good party and is sitting at mostly full mana, they should absolutely be jumping into CS and adding DPS to the fight.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

Hang on, are you implying using CS in a dungeon is bad? Cause I spend more time in CS than out of it on my SCH, and I promise you it's not a bad thing.

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I think you've both misunderstood him:

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Originally Posted by Mclyde

It's not that usual to see a sch or whm who uses Cleric stance in dungeon.

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Bolded the important word. He said it in a wierd way, but what he said is basically that he rarely sees a healer using cleric stance in a dungeon.

--Erim Nelhah

Which is weird. Especially for scholars. But I guess lots of healers are lazy.

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Originally Posted by Erim-Nelhah

I think you've both misunderstood him:



Bolded the important word. He said it in a wierd way, but what he said is basically that he rarely sees a healer using cleric stance in a dungeon.

--Erim Nelhah

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Yep ! 'scuse me for my "english"

the only real problem i would expect as an AST in expert dungeons or i guess any dungeon is the tank pulling a shit ton of monsters. otherwise its fine.

Nah we be fine ... Until we have a STR using tank who don't even know how to use cooldowns just to put healing stress on us for minor DPS increase for themselves :( .... Or mega crap DPS who stand in crap they shouldnt be in or doing soo low DPS that it feels like ur in the duty for eternity ..... Any healer have this issue but u can see it more with AST if the group is bad... And due to ignorant tanks/ DPS they will blame the healer ... It's a commen fact if everything goes wrong just blame the weakest link or just the healer xD

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Originally Posted by Evanoel

-snip- If your party constantly gets heavy damage then it's not AST's fault, other healers will struggle as well with that kind of party. There's always Lightspeed+Helios+Helios+Helios if somehow needed but personally, up until now, I've been running ex dr as AST and I've never used Lightspeed in that fashion.

As for MP management, well, one thing that I noticed that if you spam Benefic II, you'll run out of MP in no time. So, for me, I'll just use AB, AH (in Diurnal stance) and Benefic I, occasionally Benefic II -snip-

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A couple things worth noting.
1. While the bolded is somewhat true, the issue is that AST's threshold for struggling is much lower than the other two. (and, yeah, you're never going to need aoe heal spam in a dungeon).
2. Unlike WHM with Regen, Diurnal AB is actually not MP efficient (generally). Benefic spam is better. You only want to use AB when it lets you avoid casting Benefic II.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

(and, yeah, you're never going to need aoe heal spam in a dungeon).

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There's potential need for significant AoE healing in Fractal Continuum if DPS don't focus-target well or generally just take awhile to kill things. On one of the pulls before the second boss, you can end up with one of the proto-Ixal things and the proto-Naga, both of which can do significant AoE damage (sometimes back-to-back). It can be a bit rough on AST at lower item levels. The pulls with the Dallahan-types in Vault can be a bit rough too (Vault in general can be taxing because of the last boss, too, if people aren't dodging well--sometimes all you can do is a few Helios in a row).

All of those can be stunned but most DPS don't pay much attention to stuns and silences in 4-mans from my experience.

Other than that, no, major AoE isn't a big deal generally in dungeons.

The issue, is that with a good sch, a tank can pull two groups at a time, and get a bonus 900+ dps out of a scholar and clear the dungeon very fast, while an Astro will be very hard pressed to heal those pulls, let alone finding the mana to help dps them.